Are rares broken? 20,000 ly payout! Read it and weep !

[Rafe Zetter]

I just stated that there is nothing inheriently flawed with the logic that prices would have a limit, even for rares.

You respond by throwing around insults and insinuations. I'll take the effort you put into attemts to diminish me as an anknowledgement that you're just being emotional and would like to move on.

No insult was intended - you said you successfully traded in the markets, then make a statement about "max values" that contradicts that basic premise of knowledge; because the financial markets are THE most volatile trading arena's on earth with prices changing on a minute by minute basis depending on so many variables from news events to a ceo's death and a thousand others.

and to restate - throw the added situation of galactic distances into the equation of availability and all "normal" rules of trading are voided in favor of "guy with the most money gets it"

Yes it's just a "still" - but then Kopi Luwak is just coffee, right?

I'm honestly baffled how a person can make such a bold statment of having wiped a 6 figure debt and now be fully funded for his pensions etc etc all done via market trading in a 10 year period and not grasp the simple concepts of rare commodities trading.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

The Spice Islands. A sailor could retire on a plantation with just a few kilograms of spice brought back from the other side of the world. In this universe, the so called "rare good" maxes out about 10 minutes travel from the origin (about 120 seconds in my Anaconda). Makes total sense (sarcasm, because some people actually think this makes sense, i need to add this). It's just another undeveloped stub that was left as is, along with combat zones, SRV's, CQC etc...

I got paid 1.5 million credits to ship 100 tons of water o a system on an icy moon 11 lyrs away. The base was literally surrounded with ice. Nothing in this game makes sense anymore, if it ever did...

this.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Sure, the anaology doesn't really work.

Does not change the fact that rarity does not automatically equal high value, because rarity does not automatically equal demand. Rarity does not mean that there isn't a price limit. Also, distance from the source also doesn't automatically mean that the price goes up.

Someone mentioned square water melons earlier, and there is an obession with "perfect" watermelons in Japan, and I do recall one example within the last five years or so that one sold for a stupid amount of money, in excess of $20,000 USD, and even strawberries selling for over $4000 USD each. I don't care how rare those things are or how special they are in Japan, I can promise you that I cannot sell those exact same items in local markets (south eastern US) for anywhere near their market value in Japan (by a factor of 1000:1).

Again, it seems backwards to me it is a flat given that prices will go up the further an item is shipped.

OH GOD REALLY? Did you honestly just make that statement?

Did you not read the comment about the Spice Islands?

Ever heard of the "Silk Road"? a long and treacherous trade route through the Taklamakan Desert to bring Silks out of China?

Why do men in Australia live underground in a town called Coober Pedy and spend their entire lives searching for Opals among millions of tonnes of rock?

Why was the Roman colour of Tyrion Purple ONLY WORN by the ruling elite EXCLUSIVELY AT VERY RARE CEREMONIAL OCCASIONS?

Why does it cost $100 per pound for fresh Maine lobster caught that very morning, at lunchtime that day... in NEW YORK?

Why do men in Asia work inside a volcano collecting crystalized sulphur deposits? Knowing full well the gasses that come from the fumaroles nearby are killing them with a life expectancy of maybe 40 years old... if they are lucky and don't get killed before that.

I could name a hundred more occasions just off the top of my head when rarity (availability) and distance have been the sole factors controlling prices of a commodity throughout human history.

with "time" being the other factor.

I'm sorry but if what you say is true about your financial success - it's small wonder in 2008 the world get screwed by market traders with little real world knowledge outside of thier own insular world.

Either that or you are trolling "for teh lulz", because that last line in your post is just about as ignorant as it gets and serves to prove how little you understand the concept of rares trading normally works.

PS here's one more... ready?

Saffron.

PPS - those square watermelons (that was me btw) get sold WORLDWIDE. Maybe even to someone living on your street.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I thought the cap out on Rare goods value around 150 light years was a thing since they were first introduced?

What has changed?

Nothing. Amazing how some people can get salty because something is working as it has always worked.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

No insult was intended - you said you successfully traded in the markets, then make a statement about "max values" that contradicts that basic premise of knowledge; because the financial markets are THE most volatile trading arena's on earth with prices changing on a minute by minute basis depending on so many variables from news events to a ceo's death and a thousand others.

and to restate - throw the added situation of galactic distances into the equation of availability and all "normal" rules of trading are voided in favor of "guy with the most money gets it"

Yes it's just a "still" - but then Kopi Luwak is just coffee, right?

I'm honestly baffled how a person can make such a bold statment of having wiped a 6 figure debt and now be fully funded for his pensions etc etc all done via market trading in a 10 year period and not grasp the simple concepts of rare commodities trading.

You insinuated that my income has been on the backs of other's misery. Insult was clearly intended.

My only point has been that rare does not automatically equal higher value. It must also be in demand, and this demand is what ultimately drives the price. Can rarity have a significant or even an extreem impact on value? Of course it can. Is it possible that rare items can have little to no value? Yes. Is it possible that a rare item can have a high value in one market, but find no buyers at the same price point in other markets? Yes. Put your cat poop coffee at the local store along side all the other coffee, and I bet it isn't going to sell at the same volume as the other non-poop coffe, if it even sells at all. That product will only fetch the asking price if presented to a very specific market. Your average Joe (pun intended) will pass that up in favor of the Foldgers he can actually afford (and that has a price that doesn't seem insane for coffee) nearly 100% of the time.

I provided the example of watermelons and strawberries that sell for thousands of USD in Japan, that one could pay to ship over to my local market, and I can promise you that I could not fetch 1/1000th of the price for them here. They are certainly rare items that were shipped a long way, but that doesn't mean I can demand a high price for them and blame others when no one buys them.

Your response regarding volatility in the stock markets is irrelevant to this discussion, as is your lack of belief about what one can accomplish in ten years (free tip here: it starts with cutting up all credit cards, closing all lines of credit, and never buying anything that you can't actually pay for...and maybe a year or so of eating rice and beans for nearly every lunch & dinner for a year or two.)

Kinda like the other that complained about selling water to a station on an ice planet, who then just ignores the very real world example of austrailians and brits exporting sand to arabs. I bet neither that person nor you had any idea that sand is an imported commodity in the desert, or that it is becoming increasingly difficult to source and expensive in markets globally, yet I'm the one who doesn't understand markets.

 

[NorMonsta]

hang on...who had business cards thousands of years ago?.........cuniform clay tablet holder?[big grin][big grin]

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Nothing. Someone thought they'd found a potential gold mine and are upset that FD were already one step ahead of them. If it worked I'm sure the tone would be how broken the payout is.

Another one that doesn't understand the principles of distance relating to prices.

It SHOULD have been a gold mine - ok I understand that yes you can't necessarily have it scale to ridiculous proportions, but 140 ly cap when there are ships that have that sort of 1 jump range is the other side of the ridiculous coin.

1 jump makes NOTHING rare - it's the same as it being in your back yard.

20,000 ly is 142 times further away - scale that up to the value and you have...... 65 million Cr.

How does that relate to payouts for the most well paid missions? How long would would it take to jump 40,000 LY? (return journey.. think about it...) TIME + DISTANCE

Is it possible to lose your ship during the journey - RISK

Does it seem so insane to have a payout of even 30 millions for such a journey?

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

OH GOD REALLY? Did you honestly just make that statement?

Did you not read the comment about the Spice Islands?

Ever heard of the "Silk Road"? a long and treacherous trade route through the Taklamakan Desert to bring Silks out of China?

Why do men in Australia live underground in a town called Coober Pedy and spend their entire lives searching for Opals among millions of tonnes of rock?

Why was the Roman colour of Tyrion Purple ONLY WORN by the ruling elite EXCLUSIVELY AT VERY RARE CEREMONIAL OCCASIONS?

Why does it cost $100 per pound for fresh Maine lobster caught that very morning, at lunchtime that day... in NEW YORK?

Why do men in Asia work inside a volcano collecting crystalized sulphur deposits? Knowing full well the gasses that come from the fumaroles nearby are killing them with a life expectancy of maybe 40 years old... if they are lucky and don't get killed before that.

I could name a hundred more occasions just off the top of my head when rarity (availability) and distance have been the sole factors controlling prices of a commodity throughout human history.

with "time" being the other factor.

I'm sorry but if what you say is true about your financial success - it's small wonder in 2008 the world get screwed by market traders with little real world knowledge outside of thier own insular world.

Either that or you are trolling "for teh lulz", because that last line in your post is just about as ignorant as it gets and serves to prove how little you understand the concept of rares trading normally works.

PS here's one more... ready?

Saffron.

PPS - those square watermelons (that was me btw) get sold WORLDWIDE. Maybe even to someone living on your street.

Yes I did. Honestly, I don't see how me saying that rarity does not automatically equal high value is being construed as rarity cannot equal high value. All of your examples are for rare items that were in high demand, largely due to added value to someone's production (goods, services, status) therefore they could support high price points. There are plenty of rare items that are not in demand by anyone, and do not have a high value. It is no different than the mistake commonly made by people getting into the antiques markets, where they have to learn (usually at the expense of painful losses) that being very old does not automatically mean that it is very valuable.

And yes, I can be reasonably sure that no one within 200 miles of where I live has paid $20,000 USD for a watermelon or $4,000 USD for a strawberry.

The fact that you started your post with pounding out a double fisted "OH GOD" should explain things I guess.

 

[Rulyam Van Houten]

The Spice Islands. A sailor could retire on a plantation with just a few kilograms of spice brought back from the other side of the world. In this universe, the so called "rare good" maxes out about 10 minutes travel from the origin (about 120 seconds in my Anaconda). Makes total sense (sarcasm, because some people actually think this makes sense, i need to add this). It's just another undeveloped stub that was left as is, along with combat zones, SRV's, CQC etc...

I got paid 1.5 million credits to ship 100 tons of water o a system on an icy moon 11 lyrs away. The base was literally surrounded with ice. Nothing in this game makes sense anymore, if it ever did...

Seconded.

Anyone remember the game ”Merchant Prince” and the spice trade? ED should really create an incentive to do long range trading - and for that matter - create different regions within the bubble.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

hang on...who had business cards thousands of years ago?.........cuniform clay tablet holder?[big grin][big grin]

Phoenicians did.

And debt collection markers.

 

[Schmack]

Sure, the anaology doesn't really work.

Does not change the fact that rarity does not automatically equal high value, because rarity does not automatically equal demand. Rarity does not mean that there isn't a price limit. Also, distance from the source also doesn't automatically mean that the price goes up.

Someone mentioned square water melons earlier, and there is an obession with "perfect" watermelons in Japan, and I do recall one example within the last five years or so that one sold for a stupid amount of money, in excess of $20,000 USD, and even strawberries selling for over $4000 USD each. I don't care how rare those things are or how special they are in Japan, I can promise you that I cannot sell those exact same items in local markets (south eastern US) for anywhere near their market value in Japan (by a factor of 1000:1).

Again, it seems backwards to me it is a flat given that prices will go up the further an item is shipped.

You're not talking about the game. In the game, rares are called rares for a reason. They are on the market for a reason, with very limited quantity for a reason.. because they are highly sought after and not often offered.

In the real world, the rare things that are highly sought after are expensive, but not because of the distance required to go to them them. Maybe at first this is the case, but there's a lot of gold and yet the price is high. There are a lot of diamonds yet their release to the market is highly controlled to keep prices high. Likewise, the release of rares in the game prevents someone in a Cutter from making 100 runs a week with 720 per haul, driving the price down.

It's just a game flaw that such a long haul doesn't net a real profit for a rare commodity but can make 30 million for hauling someone to scan a beacon, and hauling them back (or 80m for a one way trip with a few regular passengers to some ports).

This kind of thing is why I have hesitated to set off on a trip to Colonia. Perhaps it's not fully realized yet, not connected to the game as well as it should be, and I don't want to get out there and realize it.

 

[Schmack]

hang on...who had business cards thousands of years ago?.........cuniform clay tablet holder?[big grin][big grin]

Well, in 3400 we are 1400 years ago.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Yes I did. Honestly, I don't see how me saying that rarity does not automatically equal high value is being construed as rarity cannot equal high value. All of your examples are for rare items that were in high demand, largely due to added value to someone's production (goods, services, status) therefore they could support high price points. There are plenty of rare items that are not in demand by anyone, and do not have a high value. It is no different than the mistake commonly made by people getting into the antiques markets, where they have to learn (usually at the expense of painful losses) that being very old does not automatically mean that it is very valuable.

And yes, I can be reasonably sure that no one within 200 miles of where I live has paid $20,000 USD for a watermelon or $4,000 USD for a strawberry.

The fact that you started your post with pounding out a double fisted "OH GOD" should explain things I guess.

That incredibly naive statement is based on what exactly?

(unless you live 200 miles from any large conurbation) Either way you knew exactly what I meant in my previous comment and if you've watched any US TV at all over the last 20 years you'd know you have no idea the things people buy / collect / do and get up to in thier own privacy.

I agree in some cases rarity doesn't automatically = high value - like your painting from your childhood, or my wooden aeroplane, but you are using this as an argument for how this translates for rare commodity trading and the two are so utterly different as to not deserve being uttered in the same breath, which is what you are doing.

The very fact that there are traders at the other end of 20,000 LY willing to PAY FOR the goods = DEMAND.

IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

It's NOT the OP's fault that the trading system FDev have devised is so simplistic that it cannot cater for the complexities that normally occur in real life -

In real life people buy items they think are good sellers and end up losing thier shirts all the time, just as you say with some antiques.... BUT there are exceptions that prove the rule all the time, which explains why container loads of old furniture from the UK and Europe are being shipped to America by their thousands.

Buy here - take it down the block = no sale.
Take it across the city = few sales
Take it across the state = few more sales
Take it the other side of the country = even more sales
Take it across an ocean = LOTS of sales.

The only factor here is how easy it is to get from A to B?

It's been this way for millenia my friend - I'm sorry you won't accept the facts in front of your face, but facts they are. Even your unidentified indiginous peoples knew the basic premise for trading.


If OP had taken the "rares" bought from system A and taken them 20k ly and the trading system there went "NOPE" - he'd have been stuffed and mad and might have complained....

HOWEVER if the OP knew that FDev had designed a trading system complex enough that there was a possibility he could take those same 27 rares to planet X in a different system - where trader there might have gone... "JACKPOT!! I'll give you 2 million Cr EACH." then going that far into the black would be worth it.... maybe.

A bit of history for you.... in Frontier Elite II you had occasions whereby you'd have taken commodity X someplace (even the next system) and there would have been a bulletin board announcement:

JOE SCHMOE - will pay 3x the normal market value for X commodity (which could be ANYTHING).

So demand and availability was a factor for trading in the previous Elite games... but not this one.


Edit - Every single real world example of distance and rarity commodities I have mentioned are all true - I'm certain you've not googled them to check for yourself that I'm not blowing smoke up your rear, but maybe you should because you live in a capitalistic society and one day that baseline understanding might save you from losing your own shirt.

I have no idea what you mean by:

The fact that you started your post with pounding out a double fisted "OH GOD" should explain things I guess.

it was the verbal eqivalent of *stares in disbelief at what you just said - from someone who claims to be a successful markets trader*

 

[Vasious]

The very fact that there are traders at the other end of 20,000 LY willing to PAY FOR the goods = DEMAND.

IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

It's NOT the OP's fault that the trading system FDev have devised is so simplistic that it cannot cater for the complexities that normally occur in real life -

There is demand but what level of demand for luxuries of conspicuous consumption.

Probably not sufficient demand to warrant the price the OP wanted.

Does that make the system broken
Well on arrival at the market the OP was presented with the price that they merchants in Colonial were willing to buy the OPs goods for.

If that was too little for the OP, based on the effort they put into it, they did not have to see did they.

Just because they expect say a million credits a ton, as an example, doesn't mean they will get that price, the demand just means there is demand at the price the buyers offered.

The OP doesn't have the monopoly of rare goods, there are no barriers to entry and likely Samson Bulk carriers bringing them in from the Bubble so Cmdrs will be passive takers of prices offered at commodity markets.

Why would anyone buy the OPs goods at their desired prices when they can buy for the price they have offered

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

Edit - Every single real world example of distance and rarity commodities I have mentioned are all true - I'm certain you've not googled them to check for yourself that I'm not blowing smoke up your rear, but maybe you should because you live in a capitalistic society and one day that baseline understanding might save you from losing your own shirt

All of your examples are for rare items that were in high demand, largely due to added value to someone's production (goods, services, status) therefore they could support high price points.

Do you see how being emotional is getting in the way of conversation? I clearly acknowledged your examples (and at no point have claimed that this scenario doesn't exist or isn't common), but you fabricated this notion that think you're "blowing smoke up my rear" or that I'm not familiar with basic history lessons.

Trading rare commodities is a thing, which I've not disputed. Again, I'm simplying saying that price does not automatically go up with no limit just because something is rare.

Regarding the watermelons and people within 200 miles of me not paying $23,000 for one or $4000 for a single strawberry, I did say "reasonably" sure. Watermelons and strawberries are sort of wildly abundant in the southeasern US, to the point that people would likely have hard time understanding why one from Japan would have an asking price of $23,000 USD (or about 50% or higher of the annual income for most of the population). That $23,000 is laregly supported by cultural values that do not exist outside of Japan, and would be supported in few other places around the world.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

I've responded to three items in this thread:

1. Prices for rares should not be capped after a certain distance

2. Selling water to inhabitants of an ice world doesn't make sense

3. Funniest knock-knock joke ever (6 to 10 year old boys agree)

My respones to these items:

1. Prices always have limit and rarity plus distance does not automatically equal higher price. These factors may heavily influence price, but the ultimate drivers are demand and purchasing power of the market. Everyone may want it, but the price can go no higher than what people are willing or able to pay for it. Offerred example of $23,000 watermelons and $4000 strawberries in Japan. These prices are most heavily influenced by a few supply and demand factors:
Supply:
1. Relative limited availability of land suitable for this type of agricultrual product means that strawberries and watermelons are not going to be as plentiful as they are in other regions, like the southeastern US
2. They do not naturally grow in square or heart shapes, or so large in the case of the strawberries
Demand:
1. Both are quite tasty (disclaimer: I am the only person I know who is native to my region that doesn't eat watermelon. Tragic result of eating too much on a very hot & humid day as a child)
2. Novelty
3. Cultural values on giving gifts, particularly on giving fruit

All of these support extreemly high market value in Japan. Outside of Japan, in the southeastern US, only the two demand factors of novelty and tastiness apply, and only the novelty factor sets these items apart from other water melons and strawberried in a very saturated market (seasonal).

I could certainly charge more for my imported square water melons from Japan than local water melons, but likely not $23,000 or even $1,000. Hard to imagine paying anywhere near $100 for a sqaure water melon when there is a truck load of 30lb melons right there that are selling for around $13 per hundred pounds.

2. Selling sand to countries that are entirely located in deserts is a near identical analogy, and happening in the real world for perfectly logical and market driven conditions. There is nothing inheriently flawed with selling water to the ice world inhabitants, certainly not to the extent that it is indicative of a flawed game mechanic. There are clear parallels in our current global economy.


In response to this thinking and real world examples, I am accused of not understanding that people will pay more for rare items, and a host of other things that I haven't actually said.

The irony of implying that my successes in trading in various markets, and that I live in a capitalistic economy are somehow marks against me, while attempting to school me on the basics of supply and demand have not been lost on me.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

I think there should be more variety in the formula for calculating the selling price of rare goods.

Some rare goods should continue use the existing S-curve with a cap on their values, others should slowly increase over distance. I have also previously suggested another form of commodities: Local Delicacies, ones that are only high profit within short distances.

 

[Deareim]

FD Logic : Lots of credits, not good, it spoils the grind.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Once upon a time, rares had much higher limits than now. At 10K a ton, profits in the 10M per hour we're possible. Since it was obviously broken, FD fixed it.

Fast forward a few years : anything not paying 10M / hour is considered by many as a waste of time....

Fix : x5 allocations, add timed rare delivery missions and rare goods NPC traders to pirate.

 

[djdoom32]

FD Logic : Lots of credits, not good, it spoils the grind.

And most of the Players hate the grind... so whats wrong here... hm..