Why do Developers dont give a single notice or interaction on PvP Subforum?

[IndigoWyrd]

Can confirm this is intended. Not only do I have two, but I can assure the both of you I'm also projecting.

Astrally?

 

[Shinji Ikari]

You know very well my feelings on that, as an action, I don't condone it, BUT you have to put yourself in the shoes of others. That was no doubt hilarious to some, and they are completely entitled to say "this is fine, because it's allowed, I enjoyed it, for me it was fun, and that's why I bought the game for that kind of fun".

I don't agree with it, but I WON'T blame them for playing the game any way they want inside the rules put down by FD. You can say what you like about players being the problem, but you will ALWAYS be wrong. That's why we have laws in real life and consequences. If there were no consequences (as there aren't in ED), then it would be anarchy on the streets and you know this, so you can't blame a human for acting like a human. You have to blame the lawmakers for not enforcing their vision. Considering that there are still loads of real life criminals and evil people, you would surely expect MORE of that in a 'game' where killing someone doesn't actually 'kill' them in reality, it's totally natural that perfectly good and ewell adjusted people might want to act out a couple of evil fantasies in a game like Elite, and they should be able to.

How YOU as an intelligent person can find this an alien sentiment boggles MY mind. What's difficult for people to grasp that when you hit 'Open' you 'open' yourself up to 'open' season.

FDev are our dungeon masters.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Should this not be in the PvP forum?

 

[jasonbarron]

Does yours also show the future when you rub them?

Then your projections will be very clear.

They're at there most accurate when someone else rubs them.

 

[metascrawl]

They're at there most accurate when someone else rubs them.

Put Ziggy and Jason in a thread together, and soon enough the double entendres will start to fly.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

One of the major problems I see with this stuff is.

There will be bad guys in the game. And its not toxic shooting at someone else. The reaction from the person blowing up maybe toxic though.

And yes people will farm salt because sometimes there it literally nothing else to do. And sometimes its done to prove a point. I think we all know what that point is. And it has nothing to do with someone being a jerk. Most of the guys have families, work every day and have lives. Just like everyone else here.

Open is a dynamic experience and people should'nt be surprised to run into a bad guy. Yes all 3 modes right now are equal in terms of game play. BUT! The difficulty of the game modes change due to player interaction. And thats something you guys need to prepare yourselves for.

And im sorry mods or anyone else, but in order to explain depth of whats going on here. The topic of open, private and solo will always rise to the top. Because the people complaining about it simply dont understand what they are getting into. And they get upset. Especially when its advertised to "HUNT OTHER COMMANDERS".

As for salt farming? The community needs to accept what going on there and dont offer it up. Ignore it. Its a two way street. The more you adapt and modify your ships for the dynamics. The less salt will be had in the long run. There will be times you die. I bet I have more rebuys than anyone here posting in this thread. But as long as you accept the facts. There is nothing to be salty about. Just learn from your experience to get better.

It is Elite DANGEROUS. (Blah blah rank) Whatever, people dont see or look up this stuff when they buy the game thats advertised. And I think its unfair to advertise "or hunt other commanders" and the whole community cries wolf when it happens. And then you get devs saying "were not looking for some Armageddon here" As they introduce player factions and powerplay. But it all ends up fizzling out, Well because, you guessed it.

Because a town has terrible police doesn't mean the criminals in it are supposed to just be ignored or not blamed. Of course elite has and should have pirates, griefers, etc. They are the antagonists in the game, yet the police (both FDev and the in-game police) either don't have power or they do little to enforce it to limit this practices at all, thus keeping this unhealthy amount of salt and resentment in the game.

You have "a" crystal ball? I have two of them!

So they are fragile?

 

[metascrawl]

So they are fragile?

That's not something you want to put to the test if you can help it.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

It generally isn't like this, however, whatever salt you put into it will get returned a thousand times over.

If you aren't salty, most PVP'ers are not going to pile on. I've been baited a few times, but responding with "Good Fight, you guys wrecked me" or "Good Fight, you'll get me next time" disarms it pretty quick.

Where the salt really comes from is players who do not like PVP. You attack the wrong/right person at a CG and it is like a salt atomic bomb going off.

PVP is more like 20% grinding rebuy money/50% grinding engineering/30% combat.

And the problem is that the salt weapons aren't mines people just step on by accident but guided bombs dropped on the community on purpose.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Spoiler

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Should this not be in the PvP forum?

Funny because I got here via the new post button and didn't realize this wasn't in the PvP subforum [haha], yeah it should be there IMO.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Because a town has terrible police doesn't mean the criminals in it are supposed to just be ignored or not blamed. Of course elite has and should have pirates, griefers, etc. They are the antagonists in the game, yet the police (both FDev and the in-game police) either don't have power or they do little to enforce it to limit this practices at all, thus keeping this unhealthy amount of salt and resentment in the game.

You're not wrong. You should have tools for roleplaying in game police. People that play bad guys in this game want the deck stacked against them. They want people to do something other than running to mom and dad/ forums yelling. HE GRIEFED ME, HE GRIEFED ME! But thats all we got.

And hopefully they speak up more about the core changes about this.

 

[Aashenfox]

Because a town has terrible police doesn't mean the criminals in it are supposed to just be ignored or not blamed. Of course elite has and should have pirates, griefers, etc. They are the antagonists in the game, yet the police (both FDev and the in-game police) either don't have power or they do little to enforce it to limit this practices at all, thus keeping this unhealthy amount of salt and resentment in the game.



So they are fragile?

You've got that the wrong way around. Assuming the police always existed, there was a time when they were doing their job and a time that they became bad (or not very good), so the thing is that AFTER the police got lazy, the criminality increased. Problem=police. You would never blame a lion for eating you if you get in his territory, right? If the lion is running around free, whose fault is that, the lion's?

 

[RagingxPenguin]

It generally isn't like this, however, whatever salt you put into it will get returned a thousand times over.

If you aren't salty, most PVP'ers are not going to pile on. I've been baited a few times, but responding with "Good Fight, you guys wrecked me" or "Good Fight, you'll get me next time" disarms it pretty quick.

Where the salt really comes from is players who do not like PVP. You attack the wrong/right person at a CG and it is like a salt atomic bomb going off.

PVP is more like 20% grinding rebuy money/50% grinding engineering/30% combat.

Pretty much.

People choose to engage in the discord PvP

You can choose to be salty.

Ultimately salt is entirely up to the CMDR.

I'm surprised the potential salt is off putting.

For me it was the 100+ rebuys learning how to PvP

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You're not wrong. You should have tools for roleplaying in game police. People that play bad guys in this game want the deck stacked against them. They want people to do something other than running to mom and dad/ forums yelling. HE GRIEFED ME, HE GRIEFED ME! But thats all we got.

And hopefully they speak up more about the core changes about this.

Except they don't. When suggestions have been made regarding pushback from authorities such as being banned from docking in all legal systems or the pilots federation removing membership perks due to attacking own members or hell even the most obvious that a players fine when caught covers the same amount as the damage they caused to be paid to the insurance company (ie sensible, logical and fairly balanced punishment) it's almost universally shouted down from the PvPers who are happy to cause players 10s of 10000000 of credits but don't like the other shoe falling.
You want to play a bad guy then you should expect the game to treat you like a bad guy, warts and all

FD are partly at fault, but the fact that players can run amok consequence free does not mean they have to.... And if they want to well then expect some to not like it.

Then add in the exploiters who go unpunished and that just adds the vinegar to the salt. Good for crisps, not for videogames.

 

[EvE4evah]

If anything, this thread serves to showcase the hard bias the Devs and other powerful stuff have against PvP.

In a few years (or months), when the game becomes stale beyond tolerance levels, and no new Explorer, Mission runner, Trader is ever joining the game, people will turn to the tiny part of the community who can really nurture new gameplay and competitiveness. It will probably be too late.

Nowadays in an online game, to thrive and expand, you do need a strong ability to evolve game mechanics and multiplayer interactions. In order to get and retain new players you need to cater to PvP. MMOs need this.

Ignoring and neglecting the PvP community may seem a good modus operandi for the time being. Let's see in a few years if it stays true.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Except they don't. When suggestions have been made regarding pushback from authorities such as being banned from docking in all legal systems or the pilots federation removing membership perks due to attacking own members or hell even the most obvious that a players fine when caught covers the same amount as the damage they caused to be paid to the insurance company (ie sensible, logical and fairly balanced punishment) it's almost universally shouted down from the PvPers who are happy to cause players 10s of 10000000 of credits but don't like the other shoe falling.
You want to play a bad guy then you should expect the game to treat you like a bad guy, warts and all

FD are partly at fault, but the fact that players can run amok consequence free does not mean they have to.... And if they want to well then expect some to not like it.

Then add in the exploiters who go unpunished and that just adds the vinegar to the salt. Good for crisps, not for videogames.

Yeah, im going to go ahead and call on this right now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/search?q=Griefer&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all

And there is more where that comes from on ED forums too.

I have 2 billion in rebuys my dude. All to other PVPers. I can promise you a shieldless trader cutter hasnt killed me.

Lets stop with the, Dare I say, Alternative facts? Because I can prove what I am talking about. Can you?

 

[Martian Successor]

Well hells bells, the PvE community better quit playing. It's pretty obvious they've had zero impact on the game. Filthy leeches riding on the coattails of PvPers, that lot.

/s

That's not very fair. He was responding to Indigo's rather silly question of "what has PvP done for us lately?" The poster you responded to said nothing about the PvE community not contributing in his response, that's something you brought into it.

Now I say Indigo's question is silly because it's based on a flawed premise:

1) The PvP community have obviously
done things that have contributed to making ED a more interesting game just like the PvE community have. It's pointless to compare achievements however because it's not about one playstyle being superior to the other - and that's where Indigo was wrong in trying to basically say that PvE is the superior playstyle in a thinly veiled way. Both playstyles contribute to ED. If you were to remove either one of them then ED would only be half a game.

2) Why should any playstyle need to arbitrarily validate its existence in the game with a set of "achievements"? Answer: it shouldn't. If the devs have created the tools for a playstyle to exist in their game then that's all validation that playstyle needs in order to exist.

Not less important, but more frequently the ones making everyone else complain.

Aside from either the completely brand new, who skipped past the tutorials and didn't see the link to the manual on the launcher, and just dive right in to open, only to be greeted by a hail of torpedoes, lasers, railguns and frag cannons as the stumble out of the mailslot for the first (and sometimes last time) as their Welcome To Elite - Git Gud Noob, or those who simply want to play a particular way because they were "promised" they could, only to find out that "their way" also has to include Other Peoples Ways that do not appeal to them, most folks do understand that this is a part of the Open community. Some will stick with it, others will depart never to return.

And that's OK. But is also this same PVP community who is regularly goading those who do not wish to engage in this sort of play to come engage in this sort of play, and that does not do that aspect of the community any good. And this isn't a reflection on the community as a whole - in fact, I'd wager those "bad apples" are only the smallest percentage, but it taints an entire community and the opinions of other communities as well. In many ways, I liken this situation to those NFL players who have taken to kneeling during the US National Anthem.

They are within their Constitutional Rights to do so, but I think they are doing more harm than good. Rather than winning people over to their cause, they are driving people away, deepening existing divisions, rather than bridging gaps.

I would ask the PVP community - what positive contributions have you made to make the Elite Universe a more interesting place for everyone?

And I'm pretty sure "I positively blew up that sidewinder on its maiden voyage" does not qualify.

Also, I'm pretty sure sitting inside a station using a ring of healing beams while blowing up everyone trying to take off is not a positive contribution. Yes, there may have been a mechanical flaw in the system, but there really are better ways to bring this to anyone's attention.

Elite has been called many things, by many people, but of all of those, the one that sticks out most to me is being called out for one of the most toxic communities - and there are times when the level of vitriol rises to amazing levels around here. And what gives rise to most of it?

Unwanted PVP, Speed-Ramming, and 5th generation engineered warships preying on brand-new-still-wrapped-in-plastic freighters.

And even more rarely it is not the theft of cargo that makes people so vocal, but rather the one-shot-kill, often without warning, in what can only be called a gross mismatch. But I also get it - a show of force, an intimidation factor, preying on the weak - it's all a part of certain PVP subset. To be honest, I actually found the concept of playing Galactic Space Pirate appealing, at least while I was downloading and installing the game a bit over a year ago.

But reading and researching while I waited I discovered this was not only terribly impractical, but largely unwanted. And why? Because the only recourse when someone will not drop cargo, puts up a fight, or tries to run is to open fire and attempt to disable a ship rather than destroy it. Even now, with the Yuri Grom Special Missiles, those wanting to engage in this are still quite limited in their ability to do so without running a continual risk of destroying a ship. Hatch Breaker limpets are either countered by defensive systems, or produce only a random smattering of goods, This is an entire occupation in deep need of some major reworking we might see come late Season 3, but I'm not holding my breath either.

Finally, mix the community toxicity with the kind of vitriol that gets generated toward the Development team every time they don't drop whatever they're doing to change the game to fit somebody's whims, and it's little wonder why there are no responses in the PVP forum. Who wants to talk with someone who acts like that?

You seem to be arbitrarily attributing the lion's share of toxicity as coming from the PvP end of things. That's just not true. If you try viewing the situation from outside of a biased PvE-centric filter you'll see that both playstyles contribute equally to the toxic elements of this game's community as a whole. For every PvP noob gank video there's an equally toxic thread bragging about BGS sabotage of another player group or vitriolic arguing about the subjective notion of "grinding".

And as for the vitriol thrown at the Devs at times? You cannot be seriously saying that it ALL comes from the PvP community. I mean come on. BGS groups trashing them constantly when something goes wrong, traders trashing them for their pet peaves, explorers trashing them for their pet peaves, SRV drivers trashing them for their pet peaves, everybody trashing them for RNG and the Engineers and Powerplay and Naval ranking and the mission system and money making exploits, the LEPers freakout after the expo and etc and etc.

To tag PvPers as being responsible for the lion's share of everything that is wrong with this community and the game is not only incredibly, obviously, factually incorrect, it is also downright rude in my opinion.

Simply put, PVP forum was made for general PVP discourse, PVP information, ship builds, and so forth. Granted, over time, i feel it'll turn into a LAWL NEWB GIT GUD, and will invalidate the forums existence. Which would be quite unfortunate, so i hope that won't happen.

The PVP forum was added due to it surpassing a threshold i set a few years back on activity based per keywords/hot-word matching, in addition to observations. It worked out nicely due to the planned forum revamp as well.

Do we read threads in those sub-forums? Yes, very much so yes, day in and out.
Will we (the devs or CM team, or what have you in mind) reply to said threads? No, probably not.

Thanks for your input Brett. Are there any plans to make PvP more meaningful in the game? Giving it its own set of gameplay loops for example. Because as others have mentioned it is pretty must just a make your own fun kind of activity with nothing in-game that supports it other than the core mechanics of the weapons and the flight model.

Also, since you guys read the PvP sub forum, what do you guys think of Chongo's detailed outline for a PvP hub-like area with the 2 stations at either side of an extra thick, extra wide asteroid ring? Would that be something the developers might consider creating?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If anything, this thread serves to showcase the hard bias the Devs and other powerful stuff have against PvP.

Does it really?

Can you be more explicit in your observations?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Yeah, im going to go ahead and call on this right now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/search?q=Griefer&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all

And there is more where that comes from on ED forums too.

I have 2 billion in rebuys my dude. All to other PVPers. I can promise you a shieldless trader cutter hasnt killed me.

Lets stop with the, Dare I say, Alternative facts? Because I can prove what I am talking about. Can you?

Did you quote right person? What are you calling on? Are you saying you would be ok with the above suggestions in the post you refuted and are ok having plausible consequence for blowing up clean players? If so cool but you are wrong if you are calling me a liar that others have shot thee ideas down when suggested before.

I am confused with what you have issue with

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

They want people to do something other than running to mom and dad/ forums yelling

THE DEVS DON'T LOVE US THE DEVS DON't LOVE US [cry]