Jump Range as a Balancing Factor

[Xae]

1) Completely ignores the fact that you have no need to fly a ship anywhere you don't want to. You can take a faster ship and pay to have the closer one nearby. Role-dependency. Most PvP ship builds I've seen jump less than 1ly, purely as an example.

2) Name one ship, other than the Anaconda, where you can honestly claim the Hull Mass makes no sense? I've yet to see anyone in this thread use a different example. Care to be the first?

1) Are you unable or unwilling to comprehend the point? The majority of time jumping is a loading screen. Trying to balance ships by loading screens is dumb and bad.

If you want to maintain that balance by out of game mechanic is good then you absolutely must require that the non-Horizons client be nerfed because it is then overpowered since it impacts loading time. Similarly you must somehow equalize loading times across computers.

As I mentioned earlier, and I know you didn't read, balance by load time is like the old school FPS games that counted refire time in frames so that people who had higher frames per second fired faster. This was later realized to be a bad thing and changed.

Your computers performance shouldn't impact balance.

But with jump range as a balance mechanic it does.

It is certifiably bad design and impossible to defend.



2) All the Federal Ships, the Viper Mk4, the DBE, The Viper, the FDL, the Python and the Anaconda.

 

[Schmack]

Eventually as the system spreads out and remote colonies become connected to the bubble so that smaller FSDs can get there (in time), there will likely be a need for faster travel.

However I don't see FD ever creating a system that negates all the effort put in by the explorers to discover and even map out systems, through an FSD that allows the 1st week player to visit Colonia in just a few jumps.

I don't think the FSD is a balancing aspect as much as an immersion aspect. We need better jump mechanics, something different to get from system to system, something interactive. I get tired of looking at the same screen. As it is, the game has all these carrots on sticks to try to get people out of the bubble to explore. The 5000LY requirement for Palin, for example... does it do anything besides make people jump that far out to nowhere, where many of them just self destruct to avoid the return trip? Probably not. Those who have the 5000K prior to engineering requirements probably wouldn't have had any issues with the requirement if they had to do it again. Someone who played for years and never went more than 1400 LY from the bubble probably would do it begrudgingly and find the fastest route back (self destruction) because they hate jumping and scooping.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

No, it's the opposite of balance. How is that fair in any way? Combat ships already have specialized military slots that other ships don't get, now you want them to get specialized FSD's too that other ships also can't use?

Combat ships fly around with heavy armor and a full complement of weapons, they pay a convenience cost in jump range for flying armed to the teeth. If they could jump super far with all of that combat stuff too then why would anyone ever fly a non-combat ship again?

It's one thing to implement military FSD's with greater range but not scoop compatible, but it's another thing entirely to limit them to combat ships only.

I suppose it wouldn't actually matter if all ships could fit military FSDs. You won't be getting too far without a scoop anyway.
Unless you load up on fuel tanks, and take an economic route. Lol

Still, assuming a Military FSD gave around a 50~% bonus to jump range (at the cost of other things, of course), you'd end up with SuperJumpaconadas, and Corvette owners would still feel left behind. (Aka, Jump Envy).
Not really sure that's a problem, but just sayin'.

My PvE Corvette jumps about 12~ly unmodified (18~ly modified).
With a Military FSD, it'd go up to 18~ly(27~ly Modified). Which is very comfortable.

But my PvE Anaconda, at 18~ly (27ly modified), would go up 27~ly (40.5~ly Modified).

In the case of my PvE Anaconda and Corvette, they both have very similar firepower and shields, and internal modules, and basic lightweight armour.

Which brings me back to, why must I go through 30~% more loading screens for flying my Corvette, when it's essentially the same as my Anaconda...?
What is the gameplay behind this?

(Again, if +50% military FSDs were a thing, 27ly would be perfectly fine for general use, I'd welcome this addition to the game, and install one on my Corvette immediately!)

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Goose4291]

I'm not sure jump range really balances anything.

How many times have you used to your ships jump range to escape PvP? Or chased another CMDR, but been hindered by your own range?

In most cases, people pick to jump to any system to flee from an attack. And in pretty much all cases, there's no point chasing someone to another system because instancing won't guarantee you'll meet anyway. And in the event you actually brought a wake scanner, by the time you've used it, and followed them, your target may jump again, and be gone forever. Or your target may drop to normal space, and then jump to another system.

So basically, the only thing low jump range does, is force you to either; take longer to travel than most other ships, which means you're not doing what you want for a while longer than someone in a different ship,
or use the transfer feature, which also means not using your ship.

Not to mention, some ships, *cough*Corvette*cough*, can't even leave the system with the stock E rated FSD. That's just daft. Especially when no at in the system sell a good enough FSD to leave it. Lol

Again. I've gotten used to simply not using these lower ranged ships. Their jump range is a huge factor in whether I'll actually fly it or not.
Especially when another ship can do the same job, and jump further.
(Corvette Vs Anaconda, FDL Vs Python, etc).

And like I said, isn't the fuel tank and fuel per jump good enough balance?

If a Python and FDL had identical ranges, the Python will still outrun the FDL on the 4th jump, simply because it doesn't have to refuel.

It's all just a discussion anyway, I'm not asking for change.

The Engineers have sorted the main issue with the low ranges, of some ships simply not being able to travel well, because they spent more time jumping sideways the towards their destination.
On time, my FDL took 6 jumps to cover 17ly because of the star density. Lol
These days I can do it in one. So it's already massively improved.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

I'll be honest, my adders fuel tank and range has saved me more than once.

Its just a shame it doesnt work against NPCs

 

[Coccolino]

The solution would be to make traveling through systems fun instead of a push one button and waiting for a bar to charge.

I usually play something on my iPad when travelling long. That's why I always ask for an autopilot in AD 3303. Ridiculous.

 

[Wulfram Carbide]

In regards to the Military FSDs, maybe only certain ships can use them?

For example, all rank lock ships, and dedicated combat could use them, exploration and multirole can not.

That unfortunately leaves out the T9, which has a painfully low jump range. IMHO, the T9 simply needs a mass reduction, unladen, it's effectively hollow. Lol


M.FSDs could have different characteristics to balance them in other ways Vs standard FSDs
~50% increased range,
Increased MLF,
Longer boot time,
Longer charge time,
Increased upercruise acceleration and deceleration.
Plus rely entirely on station fuel, and using fuel tanks to extend range.
Plus many other options.

Seems like a good way to balance things out.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

So... Imperial Courier 50LY before engineering?

 

[Schmack]

So... Imperial Courier 50LY before engineering?

Not sure an imperial courier would be considered a military ship.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

So... Imperial Courier 50LY before engineering?

Yup. But no scoop. Lol

I do like the idea of military drives, but it does just buff everything. Which is a form of power creep anyway.
And buffing everything, also still leaves a large gap in jump between the Corvette and Anaconda.

The Corvette/FDL, etc, are not 30-40% better in combat compared to their Multirole counterparts, so why the 30-40% reduction in jump range?

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Jack Schitt]

I really wish FD would re-jig the Anaconda's hull mass but also increment its FSD class. Give it the same jump range benefits for explorers but prevent it from being played as the default "But...but...!" card in these circular arguments. It is an anomaly, but it wouldn't magically solve all of these "range / balance" arguments if it wasn't. It just decreases the signal to noise ratio.

But the core of this disagreement can't be solved with code because it isn't a technical problem, it's a perceptual problem.

When I perform a hyperspace jump in ED it's enough to convince me, in that moment, that I've just ripped a hole in spacetime and sent thousands of tonnes of hardware multiple light-years across the galaxy. Even though I know what the code is doing underneath, loading assets and setting up instances. Even though I know the distances are just numbers on a screen. Even though I know it's going to take me ten minutes of real time to get the ship to where I want it in the game. The illusion that I choose to buy into is enough to overcome those things. The simulation that isn't a simulation works, and the choices imposed by the range limitations make sense in the fantasy world FD have created for me to play in. Even though I know.

Other players see nothing but loading screens and wasted time, and would happily sacrifice any of the things that make the simulation work for players like me in order to minimise or even eliminate them. They just want their ship to be where they need it ASAP, with a minimum of barriers.

I would imagine a great number, possibly the majority, of players are somewhere in between: generally OK with the status quo but maybe wishing things could be tweaked just a little in one direction or the other.

A single set of rules that would keep all of those players happy at the same time is impossible, even if the code could support it.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I really wish FD would re-jig the Anaconda's hull mass but also increment its FSD class. Give it the same jump range benefits for explorers but prevent it from being played as the default "But...but...!" card in these circular arguments. It is an anomaly, but it wouldn't magically solve all of these "range / balance" arguments if it wasn't. It just decreases the signal to noise ratio.

But the core of this disagreement can't be solved with code because it isn't a technical problem, it's a perceptual problem.

When I perform a hyperspace jump in ED it's enough to convince me, in that moment, that I've just ripped a hole in spacetime and sent thousands of tonnes of hardware multiple light-years across the galaxy. Even though I know what the code is doing underneath, loading assets and setting up instances. Even though I know the distances are just numbers on a screen. Even though I know it's going to take me ten minutes of real time to get the ship to where I want it in the game. The illusion that I choose to buy into is enough to overcome those things. The simulation that isn't a simulation works, and the choices imposed by the range limitations make sense in the fantasy world FD have created for me to play in. Even though I know.

Other players see nothing but loading screens and wasted time, and would happily sacrifice any of the things that make the simulation work for players like me in order to minimise or even eliminate them. They just want their ship to be where they need it ASAP, with a minimum of barriers.

I would imagine a great number, possibly the majority, of players are somewhere in between: generally OK with the status quo but maybe wishing things could be tweaked just a little in one direction or the other.

A single set of rules that would keep all of those players happy at the same time is impossible, even if the code could support it.

Oddly enough, I actually believe the Anaconda isn't the odd one out, but the "correct" way around.

If you strip it for lightweight, it can do massive jumps, but if you bog it down with mass, it cripples its range. It may jump far, but it doesn't handle mass well.
Which means, unlike other ships, you can pick your preferred range/mass ratio yourself. For example, my exploration Anaconda can jump 56ly, but is very weak. My PvE Anaconda can jump 27ly, and perfect for PvE. If I made a pure combat Anaconda, it'd probably be down to 20~ly.

Where as ships like the T9, Corvette, FDL, etc have a choice between stripped down with an 'meh' range, or loaded with extremely poor range. The choice is essentially made for you.

And while I do pretend Hyperspace isn't a loading screen, it's still rather tedious to have to do twice as many jumps simply 'because'.

TL: DR
More ships should actually be like the Anaconda, low mass, but low class FSD.


CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[AbsinthSvK]

I still think big ships are not worth for money/rank grind.

When i first looking for big ships i expected jump range around 5-10x more then small ships. You know, "big" motor, and a lot of cargo for fuel. BUT no, it's not how it works. Cargo racks are for commodity not FUEL!
Fuel and jump ranges are really messed up in this game, not fun at all.

Even transport ships have low jump range! You see this logic? Transport ships must have biggest jump range in game, no matter of what.

Yup. But no scoop. Lol
The Corvette/FDL, etc, are not 30-40% better in combat compared to their Multirole counterparts, so why the 30-40% reduction in jump range?
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

this.
Corvette is military ship but perform slightly better then multi-role ship only in one aspect: fighting. This can be apply to all military ships.

 

[_Flin_]

Everything that is an artificial nuisance is bad.

Every ship should be able to be upgraded to 20ly jump range when A fitted, empty and non engineered. That is minimum convenience range.

 

[Globusdiablo]

I'll be honest, my adders fuel tank and range has saved me more than once.

Its just a shame it doesnt work against NPCs

For the elephant. You're a hard man to appreciate.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Not to mention, some ships, *cough*Corvette*cough*, can't even leave the system with the stock E rated FSD. That's just daft. Especially when no at in the system sell a good enough FSD to leave it. Lol

E rated Corvette can still jump 6.31 LY so it all depends on where we purchase it. And we can also boost the jump range so it CAN jump...or skip...

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

E rated Corvette can still jump 6.31 LY so it all depends on where we purchase it. And we can also boost the jump range so it CAN jump...or skip...

I'm not even sure skipping counts.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I actually brought up that point the other day. Lol

I think traders should be well defended, but low damage. Having more utility slots, but less weapons.
Combat ships should have more utility slots and weapons, but less internals.
Multirole have an average amount of all.
All in varying degrees of course, base one ship size.

Of course, way too late for all that. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

That's mostly a reality. Trader ships are desinged to not be all that great at combat by just having pathetic hardpoint and nowadays, engineering allows for quite sturdy ships if you do put some head in your builds.
Combat ships don't have too many slots really, the FDL for example, lacks the amount of SCBs a Python can carry.
Done.

What the game needs is a standardized mechanic for producing jump range.

Ex:
Ship's Volume x Max Range = X Tons of FSD

Then, you either commit or not to having that much FSD on board. If you cannot get it in the FSD slot, you should have the option to add additional modules where ever you have space, be that IC, Utility or Hard Points.

The game needs to either be scientific or not. If we are going to use magic and handwavium, then I want a Spelljammer ship.

Spoiler

https://pp.vk.me/c837524/v837524235/20f09/Iu1ecQQw_14.jpg

The game already has a formula to calculate jump range in your ship, it's just that it is dependent on mass, not volume.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I don't feel like the Python has great jump range, maybe I got bad RNG. Highest I saw was just shy of 30LY, and add a hull and some thrusters, even engineered, and it drops to a pedestrian 24LY. Still gets me around but I keep the AspX and the DBx around for errands, both with 50+ LY capability.

As for CGs, when there's a bounty hunt or combat zone portion of the CG, it gets about 3x the participants as the delivery CG gets. Creating a scenario where even more combat ships could descend upon that system in short order would imbalance it even more.

I remember my first T9, I thought I was going to make a fortune hauling palladium until I realized the jump range fully loaded was horrible, so it took forever to get anywhere. I did a few runs to pay off the depreciation and dumped the ship for the faster travel, because it's not just about Cr/hr. It's about wide awake game playing, not staring at the same cut scene over and over. If the Python had 50Yr jump range, and 40 or so with a full load, no one would fly any other ship except in combat.

I never fly my big ships to a CZ anyhow. I have them transported. It takes longer than to fly them, but I can be making money in the meantime at the CG without the optimal setup and I really really don't like the jump scene repeated over and over, and other than limping back to the station with the canopy shattered, I don't like that last 2 Ls from the station that takes as long as the prior 100Ls and the 30LY prior to that.

If you are an avid crafter, you can get the Python beyond 40 Ly easily. In a combat config, almost all ships (or all) suffer, even the Anaconda.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

The Anaconda is funny one.
But when you really look at it, it's actually very well done.
It can be geared for ultra-lightweight, reaching incredible jump ranges, but generally being useless. (Aka Jumpaconda)
But then you load it up with weapons, and heavy combat modules, and you can bring the range right down to 20~ly(engineered).

In this regard, I think FD actually got it right, and more ships should be able to do something similar.

A super heavy combat FDL/Corvette should have an utterly pants jump range, but a lighter weight version should be fairly good, while still being able to perform its role (although not as well as the fully laden one). And a stripped one should be able to jump far, while being utterly useless. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

The issue here is that the Anaconda is a multipurpose ship, not combat specialized. Look up for corvette or cutter explorers and you'll see very few.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I totally get what you're saying.



I too, like being forced to make a decision. I just feel the range of jump ranges on ships is a bit too much.

My combat/mission runner Anaconda (I know, the elephant in the room) can jump around 29ly (modified). Good weapons, shields, no armour. All equipment for PvE missions on board.
It can handle anything, bar PvP, which I don't do anyway.

My similarly equipped Corvette, can only manage 18ly, same system, good weapons, good shields, no armour.

The Python/FDL situation is similar. 26vs19ly(modified)

Why such a big difference? What gameplay purpose does that bring, except it generally takes my Corvette 33% longer to to get anywhere…? lol
I've made the same choice in outfitting(and engineering), with vastly different results.

I'd much prefer it, if I wanted an Uber mega death machine, the sheer mass would drag my jump range right down. That's fine.
But if I wanted a balanced loadout, like my Anaconda/Corvette, sacrificing some defences/mass for range, I'd actually like the range to be good. Lol


CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

Because then there would be no exploration builds. 50 Ly+ builds are achieved because you are sacrificing flexibility and security over speed. If you REALLY want to travel quickly, make some compromises

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Here's what I find odd, and the reasoning behind my argument;

Here's a quick list of the big 3, plus the T9, and Beluga.
(Too tired to do anymore. Lol)
All ships are empty, and basically designed for maximum range, and no modifications. All serve no purpose, other than travel.

Anaconda: 39.38ly (6A FSD)
Beluga Liner: 29.84ly (6A FSD)
Imperial Cutter: 26.28ly (7A FSD)
Federal Corvette: 20.76ly (6A FSD)
Type-9 Heavy: 20.06ly (6A FSD)

So, 5 large ships. Nothing combat or anything about them, bare minimum to fly.
Essentially balanced perfectly (to do nothing), but the difference in range is just so different..! 100% different in some cases, for ships that are doing the exact same thing (nothing, lol).
Why should the Corvette and T9 owners take nearly twice as long to get anywhere, and have twice as many loading screens as the Anaconda?
Surely, as all empty ships of the same class, they should be roughly the same, within a couple of light-years...?
(Not exactly the same range, that would be weird)

What's even more odd, is the Cutter, at just 100t more than the T9 (6A FSD), can only jump 6ly further, on a Class 7A FSD.

It's very odd. Lol

And now I'm too tired to brain anymore.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

If all ships were to be the same, then the only difference between them would be their shape and name. Ships are different because that makes them individual ships with their pros and cons.