Elite: Lessons from X universe and EvE Online.
- Thread starter Saber123316
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I think I've met your sister, Saber123317, has she ever been to Hutton Orbital?
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I can't speak for EVE but regarding X Series I'd say :
1. be careful about bolting on new features which haven't been properly integrated into the gameplay
2. communication is a two-way process
3. open world requires late game objectives and gameplay, player driven is fine but its not enough to rely on
1. be careful about bolting on new features which haven't been properly integrated into the gameplay
2. communication is a two-way process
3. open world requires late game objectives and gameplay, player driven is fine but its not enough to rely on
Which is unsatisfying to many players.
We also have exploration, but that too isn't well supported in game beyond the galaxy scale environment.
And this is why ED might never go from good to great.
Defining a game as the opposition of everything other game did is a stupid idea. Especially when
said games have great mechanics for some stuff (and horrible ones for others).
Now. ED being ED, I can't see executive control of stations ever being a "thing".
IMO what could work well,given how the BGS is step up and factions work is the following :
- Allow players to join a faction. If it's a player created faction, existing members get to vote*. If it's a native BGS faction, no vote.
- Player who join a faction wear its tag. As NPC do.
- Allow players to modify station decoration, economy, services via mini-CG's that can be triggered by entering the boom state.
- Allow players to somewhat direct expansions (e.g. by asking the players to pick one of three options, instead of it being all RNG).
- Allow the creation of new faction owned assets (such as surface bases, outposts and such) via mini-CG's during expansion states.
- Add new faction assets that support new gameplay (e.g. a mining outpost in a ring, where players can sell their mined minerals, race tracks for SRV and ships, and so on...)
I don't see any problem with the above : anyone can join a faction, player created factions have a say on who joins and since no one can blocade a system or station,
no area of space gets denied to some other people as in EvE.
What we would gain is huge : player investment in a faction would mean that players would care a lot more when their system gets invaded by thargoids and such events.
Also, it would allow for some true low-level sandbox play where players can truly build and change a small speck of Elite. (Because, lets be real, what ED is now is a sandbox
with no water nor tools to build sand castles. Which quite a tragic state of affair if you ask me)
*It would be quite neat if decisions where tied to goverment type : democracy and such > vote, authoritarian govs > leaders/founders only vote, corps > only shareholers vote, anarchy > anything goes
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I still don't know what the endgame is in ED. Been playing for three years and never seen it. And I like it like that.
Someone asked how many weeks I have spent in game, I am sitting at over 600 hours, 648, I have played since 1.0 I have enjoyed my time immensely. I have played my share of CG's PVP, gold rush credit farming, trading, passenger missions. I have played in group play, explored the cosmos.
Don't get me wrong I enjoy Elite, its a fun game to play, to turn your brain off from reality and lose yourself. But I have hit the point where I need to make an insurmountable amount of credits to fit a cutter / corvette.
Why is it so wrong of me to wish that the ships I shoot, or pirate are player owned assets they may not be players themselves but they would be their ships logging into the game to find your T9 was taken down by say SDC. Paying the re buy and placing a bounty on SDC while I engage my scout craft to look for where they are and then posting a message on a community bounty hunting board with last known location.
It gives the game a dynamic ever changing feel. It introduces intrigue and risk into a game that is lacking it, it gives us credit sinks and a means to make money. If you're not willing to take part you don't have to.
For everyone screaming Elite will never be EVE, no it shouldn't be I have never said it should be anyone who has sunk considerable time into eve knows the many depths and systems it has I don't need that guilds are coming that is a good start so are player carriers. I just want to be able to do something with my ships other than fly one at a time. I don't care if I make 5% of the proceeds that ship generates.
I just want the ability to go to the pilots lounge, and pick up a pilot, place him in a T9 and say "go trade" and he does his thing. No micromanaging just, here is a ship here is a task go do it no need for spreadsheets.
I want to put my combat pilots in specially kitted couriers and have them escort my Anaconda into combat encounters. Imagine a wing of 4 all with 2 escorts thats 12 ships. Imagine two groups like that converging on one another. you could kit them out so they could lean on one another. sitting there in multi crew with turret control and healing beams while your couriers perform straffing runs or any number of other possibilities.
Or two ships with mining lasers and two ships that can refine and transport the ores.
Elite just does not need to be a combat focused game or a single ship based game and you don't need to micromanage everything to give it some depth.
Also
To those that say go play Eve or X universe, not a really conducive answer and that is what holds games back.
Don't get me wrong I enjoy Elite, its a fun game to play, to turn your brain off from reality and lose yourself. But I have hit the point where I need to make an insurmountable amount of credits to fit a cutter / corvette.
Why is it so wrong of me to wish that the ships I shoot, or pirate are player owned assets they may not be players themselves but they would be their ships logging into the game to find your T9 was taken down by say SDC. Paying the re buy and placing a bounty on SDC while I engage my scout craft to look for where they are and then posting a message on a community bounty hunting board with last known location.
It gives the game a dynamic ever changing feel. It introduces intrigue and risk into a game that is lacking it, it gives us credit sinks and a means to make money. If you're not willing to take part you don't have to.
For everyone screaming Elite will never be EVE, no it shouldn't be I have never said it should be anyone who has sunk considerable time into eve knows the many depths and systems it has I don't need that guilds are coming that is a good start so are player carriers. I just want to be able to do something with my ships other than fly one at a time. I don't care if I make 5% of the proceeds that ship generates.
I just want the ability to go to the pilots lounge, and pick up a pilot, place him in a T9 and say "go trade" and he does his thing. No micromanaging just, here is a ship here is a task go do it no need for spreadsheets.
I want to put my combat pilots in specially kitted couriers and have them escort my Anaconda into combat encounters. Imagine a wing of 4 all with 2 escorts thats 12 ships. Imagine two groups like that converging on one another. you could kit them out so they could lean on one another. sitting there in multi crew with turret control and healing beams while your couriers perform straffing runs or any number of other possibilities.
Or two ships with mining lasers and two ships that can refine and transport the ores.
Elite just does not need to be a combat focused game or a single ship based game and you don't need to micromanage everything to give it some depth.
Also
To those that say go play Eve or X universe, not a really conducive answer and that is what holds games back.
Some people are offended vicariously when you dare to suggest another product has some positive aspects that ED does not...
I don't get it. You say make it like Eve but then claim you don't want it like Eve and it will never be Eve. What do you want, those aren't mutually exclusive?
I totally understand why you want it and part of me wants it too. But I go elsewhere to scratch that itch because it's not the game Elite is/was or should be. The reason it's so wrong is it goes against the core concept of the game, like trying to turn Half Life into GTA or vice-versa. One is built around the core concept that the player is the hero and the other very much isn't. Elite's core concept is that you are a small cog in the galaxy, a pilot and a ship. As for reasonable reasons why it shouldn't go the way every single other game has gone please see my post earlier as well as how the creator of Elite described it himself.
Very on point and thoughtful observations. You should try writing something about these on that game's forums as well, who knows they may take note some day.
(before risking getting mob lynched by some. Don't worry, just mocking a bit...*he* knows
)
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I don't think Elite ever will be a EvE/X -type of a game.
I rather think it will stay with the "a man and his ship"-concept for the rest of its lifetime. Maybe you can buy a MB4-mining machine or other stuff place it on somewhere but that's it (and maybe some MMO-related services like a player -market).
Personally I hope it doesn't go the EvE-way with player-owned territory/factions that restricts other players from enter certain space or requires you to join a player -group to unlock in-game content.
I think they already considered that in the beginning (player -owned factions and such) but turned it down - because its simply not Elite.
I prefer the non- spreadsheet way and be able to do most things solo. Its easy to get consumed by games like EvE and then it happens, the game is no longer a game - its a work that you need to show up in regularly (if you want to unlock most of the content you basically need to join a company and with that you need to show up like you were going to work in the morning).
In Elite its quite the opposite. You can log in, fly your ship, do your thing, and then return a month later - and nobody will kick you out - because they cant plus you can enjoy most of the content by yourself.
I rather think it will stay with the "a man and his ship"-concept for the rest of its lifetime. Maybe you can buy a MB4-mining machine or other stuff place it on somewhere but that's it (and maybe some MMO-related services like a player -market).
Personally I hope it doesn't go the EvE-way with player-owned territory/factions that restricts other players from enter certain space or requires you to join a player -group to unlock in-game content.
I think they already considered that in the beginning (player -owned factions and such) but turned it down - because its simply not Elite.
I prefer the non- spreadsheet way and be able to do most things solo. Its easy to get consumed by games like EvE and then it happens, the game is no longer a game - its a work that you need to show up in regularly (if you want to unlock most of the content you basically need to join a company and with that you need to show up like you were going to work in the morning).
In Elite its quite the opposite. You can log in, fly your ship, do your thing, and then return a month later - and nobody will kick you out - because they cant plus you can enjoy most of the content by yourself.
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Isn't the lesson from X-Series and Eve "Don't implement spacelegs"?
^^ So true. +1
I would't say : "Don't implement spacelegs"
I would say : "Don't implement spacelegs unless you provide actual meaningfull gameplay for it"
What ED could learn from the X serie : actual dynamic economy.
Damn, X was strong with this, pure awesome. Create a shortage, prices hike up, roll in with the big trading ship and make a killing '^^
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I'm sorry but if a game has spawned companion apps/software (EDDI, EDCD, ED3D, EDDN, etc.) and dedicated website(s) to organize and calculate information, you've basically are using automated spreadsheets. This line has already been crossed so why not make something out of it.
I know this wasn't the creators intent but that IS the inherent nature of a MMO, which Elite claims to be - more or less.
You miss my point.
When I play Elite I fly a ship. I look visually at whats on the screen and respond with throttle inputs, trigger presses and am in the action. What the OP is suggesting is a GUI where they can control a fleet and potentially spend an entire playsession sat in a station directing ships around having never touched their joystick.
The fact that some people use trading/outfitting or whatever other tools isn't the arguement. The arguement is about how you spend your time playing not what tools you have around you.
If the line has been crossed for you fine but for me the line is very much intact and I want to play a space pilot game not a management game where the picture on screen could be replaced with pizza delivery bikes, cargo trucks or anything else and still be relevant.
I don't really agree with you, also didn't like the X series (though it's said to have a really good background simulation I could never appreciate) and wouldn't want Elite to have anything taken from it. But your feedback is legit feedback and no demanding rant. That's very refreshing.
The asset management side of things could essentially be the answer of getting the game mechanics out of trouble.
After all, it's all about the ships..right? Flying about in different modes and classifications of "whatever" doing ship purposed things searching for fun. Which is very possible to begin with, then we tend to grow into it a little and start to experiment with what "fun" really is.
And that's where it starts getting expensive....
So we have to obtain credits, ultimately lot's of credits. To feed our fun ship habit.
And that's where it gets complicated, as the fastest, most efficient way of earning credits fast, involves grinding at something. Few different things to grind at, but it's rarely if not never a component of the actually fun having.
So why not set up the mechanics for Commanders to hire "First Officers" as an extension of the Multi-crew system already in place? Although this time, it's just that the "crew" has more than one ship.
Tell your First Officer to trade these two commodities, between these two stations for 8-12 hours a day. Give them a Trade Ship and go take a nap. Come back in a week and spend the money on a nice shiny Cobra, and go nuts in a Rez somewhere.
Or tell your First Officer to dock at these four stations in a circuit, wait three hours at each one and fill as many cabins as possible before moving onto the next. Give them a shiny Dolphin and then take your partner out for a nice long walk in the woods. At night. Come back after a fortnight and spend the profits on a lovely A-Class Orca, and expand the route, or buy an FDL and go silly in Open.
Mind, you might have to pay a few fines off first. I've seen how those Pilots fly into things if you let them, it's not as if they have to "git gud" against sociopathic snowflakes. And the maintenance bills...blimey. Also, there's always that chance that you'll get a comms message from a screaming First Officer with a Station Trespass warning going off in the background, when you're ten minutes away from finding Raxxla in an Asp with 14% hull.
There are a bucket load of missed tricks and ideas that are very easily implemented by a team of organised people who know what they are supposed to achieve.
I'm not trying to be overly judgemental, just mentioning it might be worth sticking your arm into the top hat up to the elbow, and have a feel around for the fluffy bunny rabbit?
There's good eating on a rabbit.
After all, it's all about the ships..right? Flying about in different modes and classifications of "whatever" doing ship purposed things searching for fun. Which is very possible to begin with, then we tend to grow into it a little and start to experiment with what "fun" really is.
And that's where it starts getting expensive....
So we have to obtain credits, ultimately lot's of credits. To feed our fun ship habit.
And that's where it gets complicated, as the fastest, most efficient way of earning credits fast, involves grinding at something. Few different things to grind at, but it's rarely if not never a component of the actually fun having.
So why not set up the mechanics for Commanders to hire "First Officers" as an extension of the Multi-crew system already in place? Although this time, it's just that the "crew" has more than one ship.
Tell your First Officer to trade these two commodities, between these two stations for 8-12 hours a day. Give them a Trade Ship and go take a nap. Come back in a week and spend the money on a nice shiny Cobra, and go nuts in a Rez somewhere.
Or tell your First Officer to dock at these four stations in a circuit, wait three hours at each one and fill as many cabins as possible before moving onto the next. Give them a shiny Dolphin and then take your partner out for a nice long walk in the woods. At night. Come back after a fortnight and spend the profits on a lovely A-Class Orca, and expand the route, or buy an FDL and go silly in Open.
Mind, you might have to pay a few fines off first. I've seen how those Pilots fly into things if you let them, it's not as if they have to "git gud" against sociopathic snowflakes. And the maintenance bills...blimey. Also, there's always that chance that you'll get a comms message from a screaming First Officer with a Station Trespass warning going off in the background, when you're ten minutes away from finding Raxxla in an Asp with 14% hull.
There are a bucket load of missed tricks and ideas that are very easily implemented by a team of organised people who know what they are supposed to achieve.
I'm not trying to be overly judgemental, just mentioning it might be worth sticking your arm into the top hat up to the elbow, and have a feel around for the fluffy bunny rabbit?
There's good eating on a rabbit.
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TBH the X serie has a crap flight model and really bad exploration mechanics. More a Tycoon game in space involving pew-pew than
a space-sim arcade game with an economic side. The UI was quite the clunky piece too, nothing like the sleek one in ED.
In summary : take the X games dynamic econ, leave everything else in a ditch
The thing is, that team of organised people know what they are not supposed to achieve and making credits while you're a) taking a nap, b) going for a walk. The trick you claimed they missed is one they probably considered and rejected.
And for good reason as far as I'm concerned.
By all means though, do take that nap. Go on that walk.
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Nope. I think the lesson is don't implement space legs without any gameplay to go with it.