Belgium’s gambling regulators goes to war against RNG

[Stigbob]

But that's basically it, each single engineering has ONE interesting main attribute we want to maximize and a few other set attributes and drawbacks.

It would be far more interesting to be able to choose drawbacks and other attributes we would want instead and pick the drawbacks.

There are so much MORE we could do with modules if we could tweak ALL values with engineering and choose the negative and positive values and then pay the material cost depending on the result we want.

For FSD we have the following attributes split over different blueprints instead of simply having a tweak menu with all attributes.

- Integrity
- Mass
- Optimized mass
- Power Draw
- Fuel Consumption per jump
- Waste heat generated per second
- Boot time

It would massively reduce variety as players would copy the same min-max set of blueprints right across their entire ship, actually no probably their whole fleet. The very last thing it would do is bring about more variety, it sounds almost as dull as grinding.

I like ships being unique.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

"Peter Naessens, says that if your ability to succeed in the game is dependent on random outcomes [...] then the commission will have to consider it a game of chance."

https://www.pcgamesn.com/star-wars-b...ing-commission

What worries me is how far this could be stretched.

- Any RPG works on random chance
- Purchasing an online RPG with cash or MMO with a subscription COULD count the entire game as a game of chance due to sheer mechanics.

 

[AJW]

What worries me is how far this could be stretched.

- Any RPG works on random chance
- Purchasing an online RPG with cash or MMO with a subscription COULD count the entire game as a game of chance due to sheer mechanics.

Well yes, you could stretch it that far. And further. Arguably, when I buy a train ticket I'm gambling on a train arriving, and getting me to my destination. I can't see them closing down the rail network because of this. And neither can I see anyone with any sense trying to close down the entire video gaming industry. That wouldn't win them many votes. There is a specific problem with 'loot boxes' being sold, and any solution is likely to revolve around that. Assuming that the video gaming industry lobby doesn't convince legislators to ignore it entirely, by inventing some toothless 'code of conduct', which I think is a more likely outcome.

 

[sgurr]

ALL online games have some element of RNG somewhere. I don't think this article targets RNG at all. Rather, it targets the RNG where players pay real money to have a random chance to having an item in a loot box that gives them a competitive edge. Which I'd argue is indeed quite bad. IMO, loot boxes are fine as long as the items within are only convenience items (increased XP, for example), cosmetic items, or items that are no stronger than those you could get in game without spending money.

I played a whole lot of Star Trek Online and I can definitely tell you what ugly loot boxes look like from there. Pretty much every ship that you could randomly (very rarely) get from loot boxes was categorically more powerful than regular ships ... and that's saying a lot since those regular ships were already very difficult to get through in game means without purchasing the premium currency with real money. Cryptic is notorious for this kind of sh*t.

Be happy you're playing Elite where there's zero way of buying your way into dominance. And no, expansions (i.e. Horizons) don't count.

This ^^^

It would massively reduce variety as players would copy the same min-max set of blueprints right across their entire ship, actually no probably their whole fleet. The very last thing it would do is bring about more variety, it sounds almost as dull as grinding.

I like ships being unique.

How does this variety affect gameplay in ED? Does it improve it, lessen it or make no difference, and most importantly why?

 

[Snarfbuckle]

And neither can I see anyone with any sense trying to close down the entire video gaming industry

It's not the people with sense that worries me. It's the nutters with agendas against "video violence, rock music and the horrible violent GAMES" that worry me.

Those people have a tendency to NEVER surrender.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The point so many here miss is that you pay real money for loot boxes. If you pay for something with real money and in return get a chance to win something, how is that not gambling? Its the very definition of a lottery. Engineers have nothing to do with it, because you dont pay real money in-game per roll. You buy the game, and then you can go ahead. It is NOT about 'a war against RNG', it is a war against companies cynically abusing well-known gambling mechanics.

 

[AJW]

It's not the people with sense that worries me. It's the nutters with agendas against "video violence, rock music and the horrible violent GAMES" that worry me.

Those people have a tendency to NEVER surrender.

They also have a tendency to achieve next to nothing, when confronted by billion-dollar industries. Moral panic vs cold hard profit is usually a rather one-sided fight. And where it isn't (e.g. prohibition in the U.S.), there is invariably a broad popular movement behind it, rather than just the nutters. And I can't see much evidence for that.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

As much as I'd like to see engineers crash in a dumpster, they are not gambling for you don't pay to roll the dice. It's just an overblown random mechanic with bad UI, horrible feedback and clumsy gameplay surrounding it.

 

[Stigbob]

How does this variety affect gameplay in ED? Does it improve it, lessen it or make no difference, and most importantly why?

It changes your upgrade path. Say you get a really nice "keeper" weapon with more heat generation than you can easily manage you then start lowering heat elsewhere potentially having secondary knockon effects, it alters every build and makes for a unexpectedly unique ship adding more fun variety and improving the game.

But then I like the engineers, the whole grind till your eyes bleed to max out one specific thing seems crazy to me so I don't bother with it.

 

[Variform]

It would massively reduce variety as players would copy the same min-max set of blueprints right across their entire ship, actually no probably their whole fleet. The very last thing it would do is bring about more variety, it sounds almost as dull as grinding.

I like ships being unique.

I don't think that would happen. If you could control your own sliders, or assign points to a module, I would make different choices for different modules.

I might be inclined to choose some modules to create less heat at the cost of, say, mass. To compensate I might take another module and increase another stat that will increase the heat production of it. I could tweak my boat to my personal requirements.

Often I stare at the screen thinking I would be okay with less increase in one stat if I could use that difference to make a stat that went negative to be less negative. See?

Edit: Why are my other posts? Am I being censored? AGAIN? Without even a notification? Who is the mod on this forum?

 

[Variform]

Inb4 lock. This smells like a political thread, and guess what got banned yesterday?

But it is not. It is a thread about an aspect of gaming in an off-topic forum. It may have political consequences. But this Belgian investigation is not politically motivated. It is more a legislative issue. So basically we discuss the law-side of it and discuss if and to what extent such an investigation is needed or desirable. Furthermore, this topic has sociological issues surrounding it. What is gaming, what is gambling, how do they interrelate and impact on us.

There is no political debate more than some general aspect of it. Two posts of mine were already censored and they were simply not political at all. They were about how ICT relates to this issue and how this became an issue the Belgians are now dealing with. And they were about a technological aspect and it was not off topic to this topic.

 

[Surefoot]

The point so many here miss is that you pay real money for loot boxes. If you pay for something with real money and in return get a chance to win something, how is that not gambling? Its the very definition of a lottery.

That's the core issue here. Game companies are playing with fire, as they are basically offering online casinos, which are heavily regulated about everywhere. Either they go under casino laws (and taxes..) or they stop offering online gambling services. And it's not a gray area anymore as in some games the currency or items can be exchanged for read world money, we're talking about real money gambling here.

 

[Backer42]

this is going to affect a lot games with gambling boxes. I don't even know why it is investigated, it is clearly gambling at all. It always has been in every of these games. the only possible contr aganst this si that you always "win" something even if it's worthless.

Gambling boxes didn't appear in video games until the smartphone era with in-app purchases and authorities seem to finally catch up with it. The development is no surprise, because the video game industry came from the gambling industry. They just managed to sneak in in the forbidden fruit into home entertainment.

Let's hope Belgium draws a clear line. I at least expect video games with gambling elements being completely banned for children below the age of 18 and heavily taxed for everyone else.

 

[Rob At Work]

I would like to point out that Brussels is the HQ of the EU - and that's why we're OUT! - lol

 

[Stigbob]

I would like to point out that Brussels is the HQ of the EU - and that's why we're OUT! - lol

The Kremlin haven't succeeded yet, there's still hope disaster can be averted.

 

[sgurr]

It changes your upgrade path. Say you get a really nice "keeper" weapon with more heat generation than you can easily manage you then start lowering heat elsewhere potentially having secondary knockon effects, it alters every build and makes for a unexpectedly unique ship adding more fun variety and improving the game.

But then I like the engineers, the whole grind till your eyes bleed to max out one specific thing seems crazy to me so I don't bother with it.

But a change could give you a choice of an upgrade path. Sure you won't have the same surprise and reaction but I would prefer having influence over what happens to a mod rather than the current setup where hours of gathering can be wasted.

For myself I love planning it builds and I sometimes need specific rolls for that. I'm fairly sure that no one has a courier quite like mine, and even with sliders that would continue. A meta would probably only be followed by those chasing min/max like serious PvP'ers, the rest of us would tweak away for the fun.
The way the stacked rng can effectively waste a player's time is horrible design that we have no influence over. IMO that needs to change.

 

[Surefoot]

Gambling boxes didn't appear in video games until the smartphone era with in-app purchases and authorities seem to finally catch up with it. The development is no surprise, because the video game industry came from the gambling industry. They just managed to sneak in in the forbidden fruit into home entertainment.

I recall korean MMOs started the trend, i think it was long before the f2p smartphone app frenzy went into fashion. They basically put slot machine gameplay elements into their heavy grind games, some of them aimed towards children, which is kinda nauseating. Let's not forget that gambling is an addiction and a quite dangerous one...

Let's hope Belgium draws a clear line. I at least expect video games with gambling elements being completely banned for children below the age of 18 and heavily taxed for everyone else.

That would be the reasonable, logical outcome.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I would like to point out that Brussels is the HQ of the EU - and that's why we're OUT! - lol

Yeah, you show the world you wont let anyone stop EA from pounding lootboxes up your bodily orifices! That'll show them bureaucrats! Keep up the good fight, maybe soon you'll have re-earned the privilege of sleeping on the factory floor. Oh, how the Mighty UK will be the envy of the world again!

 

[Snarfbuckle]

They also have a tendency to achieve next to nothing, when confronted by billion-dollar industries. Moral panic vs cold hard profit is usually a rather one-sided fight. And where it isn't (e.g. prohibition in the U.S.), there is invariably a broad popular movement behind it, rather than just the nutters. And I can't see much evidence for that.

Yea, but give them the finger and they will try to take the entire arm so I would rather not give them the opportunity to start chewing.

 

[1500]

I don't think that would happen. If you could control your own sliders, or assign points to a module, I would make different choices for different modules.

I might be inclined to choose some modules to create less heat at the cost of, say, mass. To compensate I might take another module and increase another stat that will increase the heat production of it. I could tweak my boat to my personal requirements.

Often I stare at the screen thinking I would be okay with less increase in one stat if I could use that difference to make a stat that went negative to be less negative. See?

Edit: Why are my other posts? Am I being censored? AGAIN? Without even a notification? Who is the mod on this forum?

It would get refined to the best options, and then everyone would set up their ship the exact same way. It would greatly reduce variations in ships.