the negative community narrative and the confirmation bias effect.

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My theory is that people grind and drive for bigger ships because they see it as progression which they been pretty much programmed into thinking from games in the last 10 years or so. Someone mentioned a while ago that ED is one of the biggest progression games out there with loads of grind to gain that progression. I disagreed. For me the game is all about choice. As soon as you get to a Cobra, progression is out of the window. You don't need to go any further than that unless you are into PvP. But PvE wise, a cobra is pretty much good for everything.

Reminder: FDev nerfed multi crew payouts because they didn't want players to earn too much money too fast and to get Anacondas before they "earned the right". Therefore, there is a implied ship progression. If Anacondas were not statistically better than anything else, and were merely just a different "flavor" of ship used to fit a certain role, there should be no concern about how quickly someone acquires them.

Source:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...nty-vouchers?p=5327158&viewfull=1#post5327158
 
Reminder: FDev nerfed multi crew payouts because they didn't want players to earn too much money too fast and to get Anacondas before they "earned the right". Therefore, there is a implied ship progression. If Anacondas were not statistically better than anything else, and were merely just a different "flavor" of ship used to fit a certain role, there should be no concern about how quickly someone acquires them.

Source:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...nty-vouchers?p=5327158&viewfull=1#post5327158

I never said they weren't better. They are just not necessary to play the game to the max.
 
I just put little to no stock in what most people say on these forums.

There are a few level-headed folks (from most all "factions") that make good points and seeing what the devs have to say about things is great.

The rest is noise and you'd do best to ignore it and not bother with trying to address or engage.
 
I coughed up £200 for a game that I knew would have a retail value of about £35 for a year or so and then drop to almost nothing, I gave them money based on both written goals and promises and those made in the developer videos and the private design and development forum. The level I backed at gives me free DLC for the life of the game which was planned to be ten years, so even if they released one major update per year I'm still paying £20 each for them but it wasn't the monetary value that bothered me, I just wanted them to make a modern, updated version of the original game which is what they pitched at us.

I think that I have a RIGHT to get most of the stuff they promised us BEFORE they add in things they never mentioned, FD have let the backers down really badly even if they only put in a fiver almost ALL of their problems come from the multiplayer aspect of the game they could easily have built a single player game that worked and then added on the multiplayer aspect had they wanted to, their ambition has not been backed up by their ability IMO, game is OK when it could have been GREAT.

P.S. It also might interest you to know that back then i had to walk to work for a month on top of making other economies in order to dump that kind of money into a game, there was a passion amongst the backers that pushed us to give cash to the project, that is why people feel so crappy about it now, many player have loved Elite since the 1980s. It feels like a betrayal from one of gamings historic development heroes.

Whether I disagree with your assertion that you are owed anything or not, I'm afraid that you don't have a "right" to anything of the sort. Its one of those words that has gone from being overused to having a watered down meaning. "Rights" should only refer to things that are inherent to one's existence. They cannot be granted, only taken away.

What are you referring to would be what you believe to be a "just" expectation, based on your understanding of the agreement between yourself and FDev. Now, I don't care if you or anyone else likes the game or not and it is neither my desire or intention to convince anyone to change their opinion of the game. I'm just pointing out that you don't have the the "right" to anything, and if you feel there is a just complaint then you should peruse a more formal path rather than just ranting in forums.

Honestly, I do believe a lot of the guile around here stems from the kickstarter/early backer model, and honestly, I wonder if I wouldn't feel the same way had I been involved. I would like to think that I wouldn't, but I can see how one could easily get caught up in the whole thing and lose perspective over the nature of one's involvement, ownership, and expectations of what that actually means, or of the final deliverable.
 
I coughed up £200 for a game that I knew would have a retail value of about £35 for a year or so and then drop to almost nothing, I gave them money based on both written goals and promises and those made in the developer videos and the private design and development forum. The level I backed at gives me free DLC for the life of the game which was planned to be ten years, so even if they released one major update per year I'm still paying £20 each for them but it wasn't the monetary value that bothered me, I just wanted them to make a modern, updated version of the original game which is what they pitched at us.

I think that I have a RIGHT to get most of the stuff they promised us BEFORE they add in things they never mentioned, FD have let the backers down really badly even if they only put in a fiver almost ALL of their problems come from the multiplayer aspect of the game they could easily have built a single player game that worked and then added on the multiplayer aspect had they wanted to, their ambition has not been backed up by their ability IMO, game is OK when it could have been GREAT.

P.S. It also might interest you to know that back then i had to walk to work for a month on top of making other economies in order to dump that kind of money into a game, there was a passion amongst the backers that pushed us to give cash to the project, that is why people feel so crappy about it now, many player have loved Elite since the 1980s. It feels like a betrayal from one of gamings historic development heroes.

Well said.
 
I coughed up £200 for a game that I knew would have a retail value of about £35 for a year or so and then drop to almost nothing, I gave them money based on both written goals and promises and those made in the developer videos and the private design and development forum. The level I backed at gives me free DLC for the life of the game which was planned to be ten years, so even if they released one major update per year I'm still paying £20 each for them but it wasn't the monetary value that bothered me, I just wanted them to make a modern, updated version of the original game which is what they pitched at us.

I think that I have a RIGHT to get most of the stuff they promised us BEFORE they add in things they never mentioned, FD have let the backers down really badly even if they only put in a fiver almost ALL of their problems come from the multiplayer aspect of the game they could easily have built a single player game that worked and then added on the multiplayer aspect had they wanted to, their ambition has not been backed up by their ability IMO, game is OK when it could have been GREAT.

I was off the grid during the kickstarter and missed it. However, since I've thrown a similar amount of cash at it, including the LEP, books, skins, kits and hardware, which has all stopped until improvements are made. A decision, based on the Kickstarter scope and interviews up to 2015 and the absence of anything concrete since. I truly feel the same.

I agree with every syllable of your post. I feel justified in doing so. I feel the actual Kickstarter funders, especially at your level, are even more justified in doing so.

But every time I bang that drum, someone says "shareholders" and "MVP" before the page is out. Or invoke the whole server side walnuts.

I would have thought a company that delivers on it's promises as a priority, offers the kind of value that can be monetised?

I get the Theme Parks and Dinosaurs, I do. It's risky to put all your eggs in one basket and I get that a more diverse portfolio is a good thing. It may result in longer term development and support for ED having alternative revenue streams.

However it does "feel" less like risk mitigation, and more like the Kickstarter was about kickstarting the next development phase of Frontier, rather than Elite Dangerous at this point. The cycles are so slow, it's pretty clear theme parks and dinosaurs are the priority and resource allocation to ED is secondary. Maybe not in the run up to April, which is encouraging, but certainly through 2016-2017 it would be tough to argue against further to keeping Microsoft and Playstation happy.

Now I don't work at Frontier so don't actually know, and I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run their business as that would be rude unless they are paying me to tell them, but from a Kickstarter or as secondary an LEP and Horizons perspective, it's been dire in development scope for two years at the front of shop and one can only hope the code's been re-written from stem to stern in the back office.

That's why I'm encouraged by recent changes in approach. The developers must be excited to be let off the leash and have some resource assigned to support in the run up to April.

The Design Team must be hugely relieved, to finally be directly accountable for getting the design decisions and feature implementations right from here on in. After three or more years of getting it wrong in the context of the Kickstarter brief, (and indeed in the context of making any sense in design decisions at any point over anything) they now have the chance to make it the game it always promised to be.

Which will be better than it is now, under anyone's definition of normal.

If it isn't, the Major Stakeholders, including the Shareholders, should certainly start giving back. As they have been well looked after up until now.


I'm afraid that you don't have a "right" to anything of the sort.


Not "legal right". But I'm not sure that's what he meant. There is a deep rooted, almost religious connection with the original Elite and subsequent versions, including the current one. A connection that has been perceived to have been exploited by the Kickstarter scope implosion.

The amount of people that accept this level of corporate terminology as life boundaries is frightening. i swear modern politics are to blame, it's almost as if people expect this kind of treatment these days, so it's okay.

Like it or not, trust is a huge factor in this going forward. If it's now down to the small print, I suggest everyone starts reading it. If that's the case, I find it both a real shame and kind of sickening to be honest. Trying to build a sustainable open system ecology, with no trust and no perceived return on engagement is one thing. Make it about money and you might as well not bother.

"Doing what's right" builds trust. Not doing it makes me spend money elsewhere from now on. It's a sustainable model....
 
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Hey, Babel - sometimes you sound like an FD-employee. Repeating wrong facts doesnt make them right :)

It's only wrong in your imagination.
From Kickstarter:

Multiplayer: you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends as you choose. This technology is already working, using a combination of peer-to-peer (to reduce lag) and server connections.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

I prefer to sound like an FDEV employee than like an idiot.
 
It's only wrong in your imagination.
From Kickstarter:

Multiplayer: you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends as you choose. This technology is already working, using a combination of peer-to-peer (to reduce lag) and server connections.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

I prefer to sound like an FDEV employee than like an idiot.

Well, this is awkward....
 
The bias goes both ways. My perspective is from seeing the awesome action trailers and the nice graphics the teasers and the thargoids for 2.4 and what i was greeted with were trade cg's to ger medicore weapons all class 2 and drip drip updates on story events. No im not happy. I was shown awesome things at a high rate of speed as an advertisment and im stuck with class 2 ax muktis on my vettes class 4 hardpoints and all we know after a month and a half is the same things the trailers shown us. Its pathetic and hollow and requires minimal effort to do what they did for 2.4. At the very least they couldve made it a bit more exciting by abandoning the horizons only, and the "you dont have to do the thargoid thing if you dont want to" and then actually make it a little more spicy. Like in halo when humanity was getting rekt by the covenant. It created suspense and driving them back would be a nice peice of accomplishment.

If i recall correctly there was a cg to rid the dw55 system of thargoids. Guess whats still there?
 

Jenner

I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
(b) FD's draconian moderation (irony) ensures that inconvenient threads are immediately locked. In fact this happened just a few minutes prior to this post.

The result is that grievances fester and people become angry out of all proportion to the original issue.

Prophecy: FD will never, ever learn.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...23-May-2016)?p=3895631&viewfull=1#post3895631
Moderator actions aren’t always correct; if you feel that a moderation action was performed against you incorrectly, please see the final post on how to appeal. Openly posting about a moderation action upon you or others on the forums will not be permitted.

I suggest you drop the issue, or take it up with the Community Team as outlined in the Rules thread linked above.
 
Man I want to lived in a place where I have RIGHTS to any investment I make. If I did I would have invested to help fund that guy that emailed me asking to help fun his legal counsel to get that inheritance from his rich Nigerian Uncle. I would have got 10% of a billion dollars even if he didn't succeed in his original claim.

"Investing" is a nice way of saying "Gambling" with a tangible product. It pays off sometimes. Other times it doesn't.

Companies mission goals and statements can change. If you wanted a say in what you got with your investment. You need to be a share holder.
 
Reminder: FDev nerfed multi crew payouts because they didn't want players to earn too much money too fast and to get Anacondas before they "earned the right". Therefore, there is a implied ship progression.

then why the zillion credit exploits, active and unpatched for months?

If Anacondas were not statistically better than anything else, and were merely just a different "flavor" of ship used to fit a certain role, there should be no concern about how quickly someone acquires them.

if there was real concern for that, wouldn't those have been patched in a reasonable time?


yeah, well, between facts and the word of a community manager, i'll stick to facts.
(nothing personal, ed! it's just business. and happy birthday!)

but ... dude, you could use a detector!
 
We dropped cash on the project based on what the company pitched to us, it wasn't an investment, it was a gift in order to help get the project under way.

When a company says,

"We are going to do A then B, later on we'll add C and D and if possible we'll put E and F into the game over time"

But what they actually do is A, drop B totally, add in C and D in a limited half way house kind of way then surprise everyone with the unexpected and mostly unwanted G and still haven't got around to E and F several years later because they are to busy fixing and balancing A still, then it's pretty understandable why some of us are a bit peeved.

Had FD pitched the game, as it is now at me they wouldn't have got my money, it's similar in concept to the original game and draws on similar background but it's seriously handicapped by the choices they made for the multi-player aspect.

I knew there would be multiplayer but given that a single player version was pitched and it was mentioned a lot that we could play "our way" i was expecting a single player game that could be played with other people, what we got is a game so dependant on being multiplayer that pretty much every aspect of the game is directed by the need to make that balanced and workable for all levels of player skill and game progress. Had it been made as a game that worked and was fun to play and then had multiplayer as a secondary part of it it might have worked out better than it currently has.

Having the multiplayer aspect as a secondary part doesn't mean it would be bad or be less important, look at GTA V for instance, it's a great single player game with multiplayer capability and the multiplayer part has now grown way past the single player game, ED could have gone that way, give us a year or so of great content for single player with bits and bobs added over time to that for those that want it and work the multiplayer around that content rather than forcing the whole game into a desperate cycle of rebalancing and exploit fixing. Even something like Freelancer would have been a good model to look at, i believe there are still multiple multiplayer servers up and running even after all these years.

I guess its pointless arguing with the posters who don't care about the direction and pace of development, but i like this game and and depressingly disappointing what's happening (or not happening) to it at the moment.
 
then why the zillion credit exploits, active and unpatched for months?



if there was real concern for that, wouldn't those have been patched in a reasonable time?



yeah, well, between facts and the word of a community manager, i'll stick to facts.
(nothing personal, ed! it's just business. and happy birthday!)

but ... dude, you could use a detector!

Oh but that's the thing, I don't believe their explanation on the nerf to multicrew payouts at all. There's always going to be credit exploits and it's a fool's errand to try an pretend that players aren't going to find ways of making lots of money.

I was merely pointing out the disconnect between what actual FDev representatives say about ship progression and what the Zen like attitude of the "Ship Progression doesn't matter! The Grind is all in your mind! " crowd say. That's great that people enjoying flying their Cobra MkIII's, but the game nudges you toward wanting to own the end game ships, and out of the three, I only own the Anaconda, but it fun to own! (Just not to maintain).
 
I coughed up £200 for a game that I knew would have a retail value of about £35 for a year or so and then drop to almost nothing, I gave them money based on both written goals and promises and those made in the developer videos and the private design and development forum. The level I backed at gives me free DLC for the life of the game which was planned to be ten years, so even if they released one major update per year I'm still paying £20 each for them but it wasn't the monetary value that bothered me, I just wanted them to make a modern, updated version of the original game which is what they pitched at us.

I think that I have a RIGHT to get most of the stuff they promised us BEFORE they add in things they never mentioned, FD have let the backers down really badly even if they only put in a fiver almost ALL of their problems come from the multiplayer aspect of the game they could easily have built a single player game that worked and then added on the multiplayer aspect had they wanted to, their ambition has not been backed up by their ability IMO, game is OK when it could have been GREAT.

P.S. It also might interest you to know that back then i had to walk to work for a month on top of making other economies in order to dump that kind of money into a game, there was a passion amongst the backers that pushed us to give cash to the project, that is why people feel so crappy about it now, many player have loved Elite since the 1980s. It feels like a betrayal from one of gamings historic development heroes.

I genuinely feel sorry you feel you were ripped off but as others have said, MP was part of the original proposal. And yes, I played the original elite to death and I still feel that FD captured the intent of the original 1984 game and just brought it into the 21st Century.

All this talk about kickstarters has got me curious. Anyone got the numbers on what percentage of kickstart projects actually makes it to public release and of that percentage, how many were exactly like the sales pitch in the kickstarter request?

I asked this earlier in the thread and no one replied, my fault I guess for asking an off-topic question. Digging around, it appears that a lot of kickstart ventures follow a fairly similar path:


  1. An individual or company comes up with a great idea or concept but doesn't have the financial backing to start it
  2. They prepare a prospectus, showing what they 'want' to do or make and release it to the public
  3. Some of the public like what they see and donate (this isn't an investment, there are no quarterly returns or votes on the board) and when the individual/company has the necessary funding it starts on the project
  4. Once the project starts, it often become apparent that the original concept isn't quite 100% achievable due to a variety of reasons. It could be lack of skill, lack of technology, time constraints or just the simple fact they have bitten off more than they can chew. So the project gets modified to still produce something that hopefully still covers the intent of the original proposal but some aspects are either changed or omitted.
  5. The backers are advised (hopefully there is some semblance of communication, if not that should be the first warning sign) on how the project is shaping up. Some of the backers will be upset and feel betrayed, others accept the changes as the realise the intent of the product is still there and they are happy with the progress.
  6. Now the company is in a quandary, do they give refunds back to those who are upset, and if they do, now due to lack of funds, shelve the entire project, thus upsetting those who like the direction the game is going? Or do they ask for more money, make more promises (hey donate X and you will get a super ship), push the time frame to the right again and again.
  7. Or do they realise that they can't please all their backers, but make the solid choice to appease the majority and continue on their now modified project, knowing full well they just upset a minority but the majority are happy with the eventual product.
 
I asked this earlier in the thread and no one replied, my fault I guess for asking an off-topic question. Digging around, it appears that a lot of kickstart ventures follow a fairly similar path:


  1. An individual or company comes up with a great idea or concept but doesn't have the financial backing to start it
  2. They prepare a prospectus, showing what they 'want' to do or make and release it to the public
  3. Some of the public like what they see and donate (this isn't an investment, there are no quarterly returns or votes on the board) and when the individual/company has the necessary funding it starts on the project
  4. Once the project starts, it often become apparent that the original concept isn't quite 100% achievable due to a variety of reasons. It could be lack of skill, lack of technology, time constraints or just the simple fact they have bitten off more than they can chew. So the project gets modified to still produce something that hopefully still covers the intent of the original proposal but some aspects are either changed or omitted.
  5. The backers are advised (hopefully there is some semblance of communication, if not that should be the first warning sign) on how the project is shaping up. Some of the backers will be upset and feel betrayed, others accept the changes as the realise the intent of the product is still there and they are happy with the progress.
  6. Now the company is in a quandary, do they give refunds back to those who are upset, and if they do, now due to lack of funds, shelve the entire project, thus upsetting those who like the direction the game is going? Or do they ask for more money, make more promises (hey donate X and you will get a super ship), push the time frame to the right again and again.
  7. Or do they realise that they can't please all their backers, but make the solid choice to appease the majority and continue on their now modified project, knowing full well they just upset a minority but the majority are happy with the eventual product.

The vast majority of games, KS or not, follows that path. You start with a basic idea, then brainstorm as many cool ideas as possible, come up with a pretty positive planning and then cut as you go. Normally this is done behind the scenes, so the consumer doesnt know what is being cut so and doesnt get so hung up about it. With KS games it is different. It still often works out fine in the end. With sci-games however you end up with a rather interesting community that really, really, really doesnt cope with unexpected changes well. Or at all. Add in some paranoia and tendency to see conspiracies and malice at every turn and you've got a fun social context. Its interesting to see for sure.

Meanwhile FD released a game plus a DLC, sold way above expectations, got good reviews and had loads of people be entertained for a bit. Normally it would be a positive story were it not for the quasi-religious people who see ED/NMS/SC/X4/[whatever comes next] as some divine salvation. Ah well. :)
 
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