Star Citizen Discussions v7

It's impressive to behold the mental juggling involved when SC content is "amazing" even though they've already stated the same thing in other games is most definitely "boring". Yeah, they're starved of stuff so it's 'cool', I get that. But I suspect there's going to have to be a large re-jigging of expectations along a downward slope when it eventually arrives. Or maybe not.

It's difficult to say.

I believe there is little CIG has promised that cannot be done. Maybe a few more limits so as to ensure the game is playable and has acceptable performance but little else.

There is a better question as to whether CIG has the ability or skill to do so within a reasonable time frame...ie, before the money runs out.

And, as you suggest, there are a lot of expectations built up because CIG isn't controlling its message. A lot of the gameplay mechanics CIG are pushing are very poor or exhibit very little understanding of how players will likely play the game. But many others are described in such vague terms that players have very contradictory beliefs about what CIG means. Not to mention most don't seem to appreciate the downside of what CIG has privided
 
There is a better question as to whether CIG has the ability or skill to do so within a reasonable time frame...ie, before the money runs out.

Yes, this is what it boils down to. They've over-promised. Any of the elements taken in isolation is fine, but when you glue them all together it's going to get very complicated and unpredictable. Getting things to the stage where it doesn't endlessly fall over is going to be a challenge. And that's before you get to the even longer stage of making it all fun and balanced. I hope to be wrong!

ELITE is endlessly frustrating because it's released in tiny incremental stages, but it gives you something that basically always works. Doing everything ELITE is doing plus everything ELITE wants to do and then even more stuff on top of that is crazily difficult. And I'm not sure it's solvable just by throwing money at it.
 
Leaked video reveals SC has boring planets.

"Just like Elite!!"

Yeah, but CIG and their cult have specifically stated how SC was totally not going to have boring planets like Elite. Then the footage leaks and surprise surprise, filling an entire scaled down moon with non-boring content actually take effort and CIG figured they could just proc gen it instead.. like so many others.
 
Leaked video reveals SC has boring planets.

"Just like Elite!!"

Yeah, but CIG and their cult have specifically stated how SC was totally not going to have boring planets like Elite. Then the footage leaks and surprise surprise, filling an entire scaled down moon with non-boring content actually take effort and CIG figured they could just proc gen it instead.. like so many others.

What beats is why they have little hobbit planets if they're using procgen anyway. Is there some addressing issue we don't know about?
 
I read that as "we need the money, so we're going to have pay-to-win, and people with fat wallets who don't (choose to) have the time to play Star Citizen will be given a fast-path to the better ships and loadouts. The economically disadvantaged can grind their way up without having to pay".

The odd thing about that is you're supposed to *enjoy* playing games. If you have to pay money to skip though a lot of the gameplay, doesn't that mean the game hasn't been balanced correctly? And if they're going in with that attitude, it doesn't bode well.

There are plenty of grind fests in ED I'd gladly skip... Need Duke level rank to buy a Cutter or Rear Admiral for a Vette? How many players actually never did any grind via data missions etc to gain rank a little bit quicker, let alone drop the odd few 100 million credits on charity missions during their career in ED?
 
The moderation policies of this forum actually preclude me from giving a full and detailed explanation of my opinion of youtubers like that. Suffice to say that I think channels which deliver deliberately misleading content to that degree should be permanently banned, it's an utter disgrace.

I mean, that's not merely an over-enthusiastic fan ballooning about future content. That is someone who has carefully edited together in-game footage (the first minute) with footage from a con presentation showing content which isn't even close to being integrated in the game and then delivers a voiceover as if the whole thing represents current live gameplay. That's without even getting into his intro talking about what can be done in all of the places that exist only as circles on a map as of today.



I couldn't get past the second paragraph:



Whatever else people might say about him, Chris Roberts doesn't have a humble bone in his body. His entire career is founded on an almost maniacal devotion to self-aggrandisment.



Yes. Released because they weren't under the directorship of a control freak who is incapable of letting people do the jobs he hires them for.

See this is what I really don't get about you and your seeming confidence in this project (and note please, I'm not trying to turn this 'personal' because I'm not about to insult you here...) You're clearly an intelligent person but you seem to have something of a blind spot where Chris Roberts and his impact on this project is concerned.

Roberts has a long history of over-committing and under-delivering. There are accounts from people who have worked with him over a 20+ year period, not only the 'disgruntled former employees' that he characterised former CIG employees as when they criticised him, but going all the way back to colleagues from his Origin days. Just one of them was Warren Spector, a man who managed to deliver a game that is widely recognised to be a genuine milestone within the canon of PC gaming (Deus Ex) whilst working for one of the most dysfunctional game development companies that has ever existed (Ion Storm) which was headed by one of the few people in the industry that could be considered to be a bigger megalomaniac than Roberts himself, John Romero.

I think it's pretty safe to say he is in a far better position to make informed comments than you or I. There are many other people in the industry who have expressed the same opinion, in fact it's much harder to find someone in the industry who doesn't express that opinion.

Every single game that Roberts has been involved with, either as an employee or later with his own company, suffered from a battle between his 'vision' and the pubisher's need to ship a product within the timescales that had been agreed. Finding the balance between those two fundamentally conflicting forces is pretty much the single most important skill that a good project manager has; they need to be able to recognise the difference between things that are critical and those which are desirable and be capable of making tough decisions when the conflict between content and time reaches a tipping point.

The closest that Roberts has come to what he is doing with CIG previously was when he set up his own studio to develop Starlancer and Freelancer, both of which were to be published by Microsoft.

Although Starlancer was nominally a Digital Anvil game, most of the actual development work was done by Warthog who were headed up by Erin, the only member of the CIG team who does actually have a reputation for delivering games on time and within budget. As far as I recall, Starlancer was delivered broadly on time and it wasn't a bad game. Publishers happy.

Freelancer was developed in-house by Digital Anvil with Chris in the driving seat. It suffered from massive feature creep, was planned to deliver gameplay which the technology of the time struggled to deliver (let me know if any of this sounds familiar...) and was delayed again and again because Chris refused to compromise and just carried on designing his dream game despite the increasing body of evidence that it could never be released in the form that he imagined. That only ended when his despairing publisher actually bought his company out from under him and kicked him out of the direct production chain into a 'consultancy role', which can be broadly defined as 'sit over there burbling away whilst we get on with making a computer game'.

This time there is no publisher involved to jerk his chain. In Chris's head there is also no money problem because his funding model consists of thinking of a vague gameplay idea, getting his artists to knock up a 'concept ship', selling what is literally a dream to people for real cash and then using that cash to fund the next round of dreamcrafting. He has actually said openly and bluntly that it doesn't matter how long it all takes because he doesn't have to answer to a publisher, seemingly completely oblivious to the fact that the reason for that is he has real people paying him up-front for a game which most of them expect they will be able to play before they're in their dotage.

Even a buy-out looks unfeasible in the event that things do reach a crisis point because the way the game has been 'developed' so far mean that even if any potential buyer put a complete block on any new content at all being added prior to release they would have to find a way of funding the significant period of development needed to address the enormous technical debt already present. Most of the concept ships themselves, plus literally all of the gameplay loops and mechanics required to make use of them (colonisation now for God's sake!!!) are still to be created, plus all of the current assets that so much time has been spent on would be between three and five years old with even a 2020 release (which itself would be absurdly optimistic, 2022 is more realistic) and so would need reworking, plus the mo-cap would be five years old and would need reworking, etc. etc. All whilst paying a huge development team. Even if the rights for the game and all existing development assets were sold for a penny it's difficult to see how someone could come in, fund all of that and then make a profit on sales after release (bearing in mind how many potential players have already spent all that they will be spending) without moving to the most exploitative kind of EA sales model that it's possible to imagine, or a subscription model which would provoke a backlash the likes of which has never been seen.

So that's what we have. A game that is ultimately under the complete control of someone whose entire track record would suggest has literally no chance at all of delivering what he is promising and which, unlike all of his previous endeavors, doesn't have any obvious deus ex machina waiting in the wings to either force his hand or deliver a rescue when required. It doesn't matter how many talented people he has working for him because as the Jennisson letter indicates, he isn't giving them sufficient control over their areas of expertise to actually use their talents to best effect. You can hire the best chef in the world but if you're going to try to cook your own dinner and then ask him to season it for you, you're not getting the benefit of his skills.

There's a saying in business which I think Chris would do well to remember. The fish rots from the head.


Very well said! Reped.
 
There are plenty of grind fests in ED I'd gladly skip... Need Duke level rank to buy a Cutter or Rear Admiral for a Vette? How many players actually never did any grind via data missions etc to gain rank a little bit quicker, let alone drop the odd few 100 million credits on charity missions during their career in ED?

A couple I guess. Not that it got me far not doing so, lol.
 
There are plenty of grind fests in ED I'd gladly skip... Need Duke level rank to buy a Cutter or Rear Admiral for a Vette? How many players actually never did any grind via data missions etc to gain rank a little bit quicker, let alone drop the odd few 100 million credits on charity missions during their career in ED?

Then don't grind. Go canyon racing or Bucky racing, because these are fun. What worries me about SC is it's "biggest circle-strafe gun wins" approach.
Do they even have canyons to race though or jump over in an SRV? Or is it just grinding/paying to an Idris?

There are no game loops to even try. It's all ship sales.
 
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What beats is why they have little hobbit planets if they're using procgen anyway. Is there some addressing issue we don't know about?

I won't pretend to know enough about this to say for certain but if I have to guess it's an effort to make the planets appear more dense with "content" and "points of interest."

A planet sized planet is all good and well, but as some folks learned (HG in NMS and Frontier in Elite) making those planets feel worthwhile as you wander their surfaces is no easy task.

NMS takes the hyper-unrealistic path of filling them with weird alien plants and animals, and wacky terrain and that certainly helps but by cramming so much in such a large place it makes it so that no matter where you land on the planet it all is mostly the same. (Early on, at least, now they added some intra-planet variety but not enough, imo) You could condense each NMS planet down to a single 10km by 10km map and it's have the same effect, tbh.

Frontier went for a more realistic model, with large swaths of empty space and massive 'macro features' like the craters, canyons, and mountain ranges. The problem there is that though you can feel like each landing zone is unique, there's tons and tons of dead space between them with nothing to look at or do. I prefer this, though, in a more realistic setting, and we can't yet land on planets with more potential interest (gotta wait for atmo landings) and once they fix the beigification there will be more inter-planetary variety to help. Still, it highlights the problem SC is potentially trying to solve.

The problem is this: It's a ton easier to fill the space of Skyrim with quality khantent then it is to fill the space of Daggerfall, and it's much easier to make a little dwarf planetoid seem full of outposts and landmarks and points of interest then a planet the size of earth. It's also easier to allow macro-landmarks (large canyons and the like.) Trust me on this one, I owned terragen 2 and 3, and I know that from a simple design standpoint when you decide on a planet sized planet but you want to make continents, mountain ranges, and the like, it's not very easy to get the scaling right on anything. Much much easier on a dwarf planetoid where smaller mountains appear "bigger" and an continent can be a large island in disguise.
 
I thought the point of Star Citizen was that they’d make it almost ThemePark-level of interaction and fun. Everything would be hand-crafted with amazing sheer-cliffs and narrow canyons and I don’t know.. huge Volcanos and caves. Where’s all of that? Where’s ANY of that? We saw a screenshot once where the player was standing at the top of this enormous canyon looking straight down, and it was impressive looking, but if each planet only has one or two interesting sights and the rest of the planet is flat and barren... well, there’s nothing wrong with realism, I appreciate the realism in Elite, but SC already threw that out the window with the 1/4-1/10 thing.

I should reserve judgement, maybe the other moon is amazing and we can do canyon races and it’ll be great fun on that one. Just seems to be the theme with SC, no matter what we get it’s always the wrong one, the NEXT one is the amazing one.

I rememeber one of CIGs videos showing how they had this great tool that allowed them to paint features on a planet really quickly and drop and snap different structures together. Looked quite cool, but i'm sure even back then, many were saying, ok, but now try doing this all over a planet, and then multiple planets, its going to take a long time. However, not even sure they have used this tool at all here. Maybe they are using it for the SQ42 levels.

Leaked video reveals SC has boring planets.

"Just like Elite!!"

Yeah, but CIG and their cult have specifically stated how SC was totally not going to have boring planets like Elite. Then the footage leaks and surprise surprise, filling an entire scaled down moon with non-boring content actually take effort and CIG figured they could just proc gen it instead.. like so many others.

Because i'm fairly sure CR invents what he wants to do without asking devs first for things like estimates or whether something is even possible. Then the devs have to try and do what CR wants and some poor sap will have to tell CR at some point that what he wants isn't realistic, and we know CR doesn't like people telling him no. He likes yes men, people who can make the impossible happen. So, i can imagine the devs working in that envorinment don't like to give CR the bad news, they keep working on it, promising CR its just around the corner, once they get the current issues fixed, but oh no, look, another issue, don't worry, we will fix that... and so on and so on until CR himself says "Ok guys, let's cut back no the scale" after which, the devs breath a sigh of relief and get on with doing what is possible.

What beats is why they have little hobbit planets if they're using procgen anyway. Is there some addressing issue we don't know about?

Full size, and its going to be even more like Elite, not to mention travel times would multiply. However, even with the 64 bit engine, who knows, maybe they also can't have full size planets for performance reasons?
 
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Ok, that's not too bad. Showing they have the basics of trade in. So far looks more or less just like ED. Go to one place, get goods, go to another sell goods. Well, that's the fundamentals of trade anyway.

So, some sort of progress here on gameplay loops i suppose, although for the moment, limited on places to buy and sell from.

Yeah, good to see some actual gameplay loops being shown off, but I fail to see the world saving difference. Finding a wreck and picking up the boxes? The only difference to ED was that they were on foot and not in an SRV. But I guess for some that makes all the difference. And trading.. somehow I expected them to have kiosks, NPCs would be a bit meh.
 
What beats is why they have little hobbit planets if they're using procgen anyway. Is there some addressing issue we don't know about?

Performance issues and gameplay.

Worlds and space have been scaled down to make travel times quicker, it's easier to stuff a smaller world with content than a larger one, you won't need to model every dwelling at the smaller scale and its less resource intensive.

In other words, their game can't handle a larger scale.
 
It's a bit of a shame that they sped it up, I would like to have seen how long the approach to the planet's surface was.

The one thing I don't like in that video is where you have to pick your ship through the trading interface. If he is at Grim Hex and his only ship at Grim Hex is the Cutlass, why show all the other ships?
 
Well, that is a boring video. What if Star Citizen is just a fetch quest sim?

At least it does one of the pillars of a Chris Roberts game right: cool menus that look like computer consoles.
 
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