Community Goals as content delivery and story progression tools

[Mengy]

Part of the problem with CG’s is that they are “outside” of the game. New ones appear every Thursday directly created by Frontier to replace the previous two or three CG’s from last Thursday. It’s regular as clockwork which makes it all seem mundane to a degree.

I’d personally like to see a more spontaneous and dynamic form of CG implemented into the game, something driven by the BGS rather than Frontier’s hands. “Community Missions” of a sort, CM’s, which the BGS itself can create from time to time based on system states. For example, a system in famine might generate a community goal or mission requiring food be brought in to help reduce or stop the famine. The galaxy map could then be filtered to show systems offering Community Missions so that players could congregate to them in order to participate. They wouldn’t have end goals like the current CG’s do other than changing system states in the BGS, but they would present very lucrative locations for players to make some very good credits. In essence the BGS itself could create mini “goldrush” locations for players, and instead of just two or three every Thursday you could see a dozen or so of these scattered about the bubble at any time in various states of completion.

This would help make community events more dynamic and story driven within the BGS. Story driven in so far as the nature of the bubble itself would be responsible for the CM’s being created, and the level of players participating could be the deciding point between a system entering a boom state or falling into recession, between a system starving to death or thriving, or between a system being overrun by pirates or fighting back to restore order, or even between a system entering a technological boom due to exploration data or going into despair due to an economic crash.

 

[jasonbarron]

As they are currently the only interesting, emergent gameplay elements that are happening at CG's are from various PvP groups ganking everything that moves. Maybe we should be paying SDC & Affiliates

 

[rootsrat]

The definition of a constructive thread.

Yeah, I don't like to complain pointlessly. Criticism is good, moaning isn't

Part of the problem with CG’s is that they are “outside” of the game. New ones appear every Thursday directly created by Frontier to replace the previous two or three CG’s from last Thursday. It’s regular as clockwork which makes it all seem mundane to a degree.

I’d personally like to see a more spontaneous and dynamic form of CG implemented into the game, something driven by the BGS rather than Frontier’s hands. “Community Missions” of a sort, CM’s, which the BGS itself can create from time to time based on system states. For example, a system in famine might generate a community goal or mission requiring food be brought in to help reduce or stop the famine. The galaxy map could then be filtered to show systems offering Community Missions so that players could congregate to them in order to participate. They wouldn’t have end goals like the current CG’s do other than changing system states in the BGS, but they would present very lucrative locations for players to make some very good credits. In essence the BGS itself could create mini “goldrush” locations for players, and instead of just two or three every Thursday you could see a dozen or so of these scattered about the bubble at any time in various states of completion.

This would help make community events more dynamic and story driven within the BGS. Story driven in so far as the nature of the bubble itself would be responsible for the CM’s being created, and the level of players participating could be the deciding point between a system entering a boom state or falling into recession, between a system starving to death or thriving, or between a system being overrun by pirates or fighting back to restore order, or even between a system entering a technological boom due to exploration data or going into despair due to an economic crash.

Excellent idea. I thought about something like that before. BGS and system states are a great tool to be a CG generator. They could even have end goals. I mean famine can potentially end after you bring enough food into the system, right?

 

[Ozric]

::EDIT:: For this point - I don't mean that we should have easy-mode CG's, where they are guaranteed to be completed.

That is what we have though, that's one of the problems.

As far as I see it there are 2 major problems with CGs:

1. People only do them for the credits, with 0 regard for what the CG is even about.

2. They succeed on reaching Tier 1


A couple of examples of 1, would be the November the 5th CG last year, where for anyone who bothered to read the text it was clear that you were delivering goods to a group of terrorists so they could commit an attack. I mentioned this more than once in the CG thread, tried to get people to stop and even started UA bombing the station to stop them, but no one was bothered. As I was repeatedly told, they only cared about the credits. Working on my own I had no chance in shutting down the station before it hit Tier 1 (although realistically no one could shut down a CG before it hits Tier 1 because the shutdown isn't instant when it hits the required amount) and what happened? When the CG completed the terrorists detonated a device inside the starport that killed thousands of innocent people.

But herein lies another problem with some CGs. There was nothing tangible that came from it. Thousands of innocent people killed, purely by the greed of players, but zero repercussions.

Another example are the CGs from a couple of weeks ago. There was an Alliance story CG to build more bases/megaship in the California Nebula and it was up against the Wolves of Jonai (I have nothing at all against the Wolves). So you have an important CG where the closest station to get the good required was over 140Ly away, up against a CG with incredibly short travel distances giving over 7,000 Cr/t profit, with some of the highest global rewards I've seen for a CG. The results were not surprising.


Point 2:

Aside from the fact that it's virtually impossible to stop CGs by UA bombing (unless you know where they're going to be held in advance), I believe the premise itself is fundamentally flawed. I said the other day that no CGs had failed, I was corrected about the Cerberus Plague ones, but then they were only 1 tier. Aside from that no CG in their history has failed to reach Tier 1. There is nothing that can be done to go against the intention of the CG. I don't trust or agree with Aegis, I don't want them to develop weapons to attack the Thargoids, there shouldn't be 2 CGs to help aid them there should be one set up to stop them. Whichever has the highest progression at the end should succeed and the other should fail. Opposing combat CGs that follow the same premise, whichever one succeeds first is the winner. You also shouldn't be able to sign up to both Federation and Imperial opposing CGs.

CGs should not succeed until much higher, at least Tier 4, but maybe not till Tier 6. Tier 1 and 2: Major failure, 3, 4 and 5: Failure, 6, 7 and 8: Varying levels of success.


*Edit* I also think that global credit rewards depending on the tier reached should be removed too.

 

[rootsrat]

2. They succeed on reaching Tier 1

Very good point.

Couple of months ago me and my group organised a CG to have a space bar built in one of our system (one of the CQC-style installations). Alongside it there was another CG by another group that wanted a mega ship in their system.

We were under the impression that we need to fully complete the CG to have the bar built. We work our bottoms off all week long, we've overcome a Lockdown, some people trying to shoot our convoys and also the fact that we've had the lowest number of pilots signed up. There was a 3rd CG that week - for the new Aegis weapon and at the time it attracted a few thousand people. Same goes for the other faction's CG.

And yet only our CG actually completed, we've reached all the tiers. I remember feeling sorry for the guys from the other faction (Candy Crew or something like that), as I thought they wouldn't get the megaship, because their CG didn't complete. Yet, to my surprise, they got it too.

So what's the point of having tiers, if all you need to do is reach T1 and it's all done then? I regret I didn't know this before, as it costed a lot of sweat and tears for my guys to complete our CG despite all the odds... It seems pointless now.

And yet - it was one of the most engaging CG's I've ever been to, not only because it was our CG, but because we felt the danger of actually not getting the bar installation we wanted, also knowing we probably won't get another chance, due to the amount of CG submitted by other groups and the massive queue.

 

[Ozric]

emergent gameplay

 

[Fosdyke]

Very nice suggestions OP +1 rep
Passengers missions will get some nice CG like evacuating people from a warzone or because of a plague. In the meantime some people will bring medecine to help to cure the plague. Possibilities are here FD needs to put them in motion.
Let's imagine some terraformable planet CG. Bring people to a constructed remote base in space with all the necessary components. Step by step.

 

[Ozric]

So what's the point of having tiers, if all you need to do is reach T1 and it's all done then?

Generally it's to unlock extra things. So for example the Aegis CGs unlock more locations for the weapons to be available in. The Feeding California CG unlocked a new base for each tier reached. The Gnosis CG (and other base ones) unlocked more facilities at the locations.

They're all good things, I certainly think that CGs should have stretch goals to give you something extra to work towards, but the success criteria needs to be much much higher.


I am hopeful that CGs will be revisited during Beyond, but let's be clear there's not going to be any complete overhaul of the mechanic, but there needs to be adaptation. Especially of exploration CGs which are, unfortunately, pointless.

 

[Insane4un]

Anything will be better.

CG as mechanics is not really bad. It is all about design part.

 

[Arindor]

CG item rewards are not a good thing imo, items should be made available to all, regardless of whether a player takes part in a CG or not. Besides, for me at least, CGs emphasise the grind in ED, so they are rather off-putting as I'd rather not be reminded of that every time I engage with the game. So far so good.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

As they are currently the only interesting, emergent gameplay elements that are happening at CG's are from various PvP groups ganking everything that moves. Maybe we should be paying SDC & Affiliates

Ganking is not emergent gameplay.

Emergent Gameplay: Emergent gameplay is a game design term that refers to video game mechanics that change according to the player's actions. Emergent gameplay includes a number of relatively simple decisions that a player must make, the sum of which lead to more complex outcomes. Emergent gameplay can also be created by adding multiple players to the same game environment and having their individual actions impact the overall game narrative. Similarly, more complex artificial intelligence capable of impacting the storyline in unpredictable ways can be used in lieu of additional players.

Do you really believe that ganking is emergent gameplay. To me it is just ganking and doesn't achieve anything within the games narative.

Back to the original post. I have no issues with Community Goals, they just need better descriptions and with possible long term consequences if you fail, Tier 1 should be much tougher to get, but each tier after being much closer together then what we have here.

The activities needed to be done for each CG needs to be more varied, so more people can get involved. For instance, the current pair (i know one is discontinued) could or should have been one CG. There is no reason to split them up, just have the bounty amount equate to a certiain amount of points and and the tonnage delivered equate to a certain amount and then you have joint CG's. At the moment they are too regimented in what you can do.

 

[13A]

Good thread, repped.

Something I'd like to see is proper competing CGs. It's not unusual to see 2 CG in a system; say trading and bounty hunting, but there's no link between them. They can both succeed, and have no effect other than being a cash cow. How about going back to the mechanic from the Lugh war? Competing CGs where the first one to finish (or highest tier) gets the prize. By all means payout on both, but the winner gets the station, or influences the story direction or whatever.

 

[rootsrat]

CG item rewards are not a good thing imo, items should be made available to all, regardless of whether a player takes part in a CG or not. Besides, for me at least, CGs emphasise the grind in ED, so they are rather off-putting as I'd rather not be reminded of that every time I engage with the game. So far so good.

Global rewards from a CG (if it has them) are available to all players, not only those that participated. It's the case with the current one as well - the higher tier, the more places new weapons would have been available at. To all the players, no less.

 

[Ozric]

CG item rewards are not a good thing imo, items should be made available to all, regardless of whether a player takes part in a CG or not.

To be fair other than the occasional decal for participation, all rewards are available to all players. This was changed after the Huge Gimballed weapons... "situation"

 

[Arindor]

To be fair other than the occasional decal for participation, all rewards are available to all players. This was changed after the Huge Gimballed weapons... "situation"

Cheers for that. Tbh, I've been out exploring for ages, so I haven't been up-to-date with certain "situations".

 

[Factabulous]

A couple of te suggestions here have happened already:

There were competing Imp / Fed BH CGs where first to top tier won, other got closed early.

There were also I believe CGs where station facilities were linked to levels so that you got outfittng at lvl 2, market at 3 etc

I guess they do it sometimes, and not other times - for variety.

In general I agree with most of the comments : when you look at the sterling work on the stellar forge, how the thargons move etc - top notch. Then you look at the CGs and wonder at the difference in quality. It's bad enough that the CG good are illegal in the target station - but that station didn't even have a Black Market when then CG started - CGs need some TLC and attention to details.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Why didn’t FD consider the gameplay limitations of their ‘game’ as they were making it?

And perhaps change things so they could later add actually good stuff?

Didn’t they wanna compete with modern games?

Or maybe they realised but it didn’t concern them, I dunno...

Or maybe trying to make a massive game with 100's of different parts that the community wants improving is actually really hard and time consuming? #2020Vision

 

[Muetdhiver]

For sure CG's are not the best tool to deliver a story. Or is it ?

I mean, CG's are boring because it's boring repetitive stuff, which is for gathering ressource for a new capital ship,
but poor at conveying tension wrt the thargoids.

What FD may want to do is "facelift" the CG big time : Instead of asking the community to fetch commodity X,
have CG's being a chain of timed events. Let say the CG lasts 7 days, well, prepare some timed events that have
a narative link between them. Also, prepare a bunch of timed event used as consequences from failed timed event
in the chain (maybe).

Want an example, here we go ! :

Day 1 : Pleiade alliance outpost as received mangled detress signals from a group of escorted Aegis research ships. Timed event is 24h to locate emergency beacons from the battle site in a 50lyr bubble arround a estimated source point.
If players find the sources, sucess. Otherwise CG's end. Complication : Thargs are busy cleaning up, so anyone entering the 50 lyr bubble will be hyperdicted and attacked. Think hign risk scouting.

Day 2 : Provided the beacons have been found, the beacons point to a large research ship wreck with research data to collect. Since the areas is swarming with thargoid ships, stealth is best, but diversion ships plus pickup ship migh work.
Collect enough data box to reconstitute the research to get to stage 3.

Day 3 : Research data has been reconstructed as best as possible, but need some tissue samples from basilisks to complete it and/or scans of them at close distance for the sneaky players. Get enough, go to stage 4.

Day 4 : Well, thargoids are smart, and some of the tissue samples are thargoid probes/beacons, and the Aegis facility is now under siege. CZ like, but around the station and its defenses. If more player ships are lost than
thargoids destroyed, the station is lost and CG ends.

Day 5 : Station is safe, work on a prototype succeeds, now it's just a normal trade CG over 2 days. With the catch that the system is blocaded by the thargoids in witchspace : anyone jumping is hyperdicted and attacked.

E.g. of recovery events :

Day 5b : The station is a wreck, but data and prototypes can be recovered, if the port blockade is passed. Exflitrate data, prototypes and scientists to an other Aegis facility. Catch : There are a dozen of thargoids patroling arround the damaged
station. Get in, Land, Load and Escape with as much stuff as possible.

Day 6b : Trade CG at the new location. Still the pleiade outpost is lost and the system is now crawling with thargoids.

See, it could be better. But it would be much more work from FD's part. Still, it would keep the CG structure but add spices to it,
and lasting consequences even for a partial failure.

 

[rootsrat]

For sure CG's are not the best tool to deliver a story. Or is it ?

I mean, CG's are boring because it's boring repetitive stuff, which is for gathering ressource for a new capital ship,
but poor at conveying tension wrt the thargoids.

What FD may want to do is "facelift" the CG big time : Instead of asking the community to fetch commodity X,
have CG's being a chain of timed events. Let say the CG lasts 7 days, well, prepare some timed events that have
a narative link between them. Also, prepare a bunch of timed event used as consequences from failed timed event
in the chain (maybe).

Want an example, here we go ! :

Day 1 : Pleiade alliance outpost as received mangled detress signals from a group of escorted Aegis research ships. Timed event is 24h to locate emergency beacons from the battle site in a 50lyr bubble arround a estimated source point.
If players find the sources, sucess. Otherwise CG's end. Complication : Thargs are busy cleaning up, so anyone entering the 50 lyr bubble will be hyperdicted and attacked. Think hign risk scouting.

Day 2 : Provided the beacons have been found, the beacons point to a large research ship wreck with research data to collect. Since the areas is swarming with thargoid ships, stealth is best, but diversion ships plus pickup ship migh work.
Collect enough data box to reconstitute the research to get to stage 3.

Day 3 : Research data has been reconstructed as best as possible, but need some tissue samples from basilisks to complete it and/or scans of them at close distance for the sneaky players. Get enough, go to stage 4.

Day 4 : Well, thargoids are smart, and some of the tissue samples are thargoid probes/beacons, and the Aegis facility is now under siege. CZ like, but around the station and its defenses. If more player ships are lost than
thargoids destroyed, the station is lost and CG ends.

Day 5 : Station is safe, work on a prototype succeeds, now it's just a normal trade CG over 2 days. With the catch that the system is blocaded by the thargoids in witchspace : anyone jumping is hyperdicted and attacked.

E.g. of recovery events :

Day 5b : The station is a wreck, but data and prototypes can be recovered, if the port blockade is passed. Exflitrate data, prototypes and scientists to an other Aegis facility. Catch : There are a dozen of thargoids patroling arround the damaged
station. Get in, Land, Load and Escape with as much stuff as possible.

Day 6b : Trade CG at the new location. Still the pleiade outpost is lost and the system is now crawling with thargoids.

See, it could be better. But it would be much more work from FD's part.

I'd love to see stuff like that in game. Very neat idea! Not sure how difficult it would be to implement with the current mechanics though. Hopefully we'll get there at some point.

 

[Enderby]

Or maybe trying to make a massive game with 100's of different parts that the community wants improving is actually really hard and time consuming? #2020Vision

Yes, they seem to have made that clear.