Star Citizen Discussions v7

Zetta · Dec 14, 2017

An update to the recent Polygon article about the $25,000 refund

Update: A second high-value backer of the Star Citizen projects reached out to Polygon after this story was published. On Sept. 25, 2017 Francis Cossette asked for a refund of $16,700 dating back to pledges made in 2012. They have yet to receive all of the money they were asking for in return.
We’ve confirmed that Cossette’s case is open with the Better Business Bureau of Los Angeles and Silicon Valley.
“We wrote to Cloud Imperium,” said Steve McFarland, CEO of the BBB. “‘Certainly, you cannot expect consumers to wait indefinitely for a return on their investment.’ We have not received a response.”
Cossette said that he has filed a small claims case, and Polygon is working to confirm that.

AJW · Dec 14, 2017

Regarding the 'migration to Lumberyard' thing, the filing claims that CIG signed a contract to develop SC using CryEngine exclusively. Rewriting code to use Lumberyard doesn't get around that, it makes it worse...

Dooguk · Dec 14, 2017

I think CIG thought Crytek was going to die and all this would disappear.

Skizomeuh · Dec 14, 2017

Snarfbuckle said:
It's odd though.

- They had a licence to use Cryengine in a specific way to create Star Citizen
- They ALSO purchased a FULL license in case Cryengine went under
- Would not the FULL license invalidate some of the demands from CryTek?

Not if their "FULL license" (and the price they negociated) was tied to a contract's specs such as those CryTek is suing CIG for. Also, "FULL license" doesn't mean CIG owns the source code's IP, does it?

hairychris · Dec 14, 2017

Snarfbuckle said:
Unless they rewrote the same binaries and compiled them into LY - at least that way it would look like LY code.

Kind of.

The source code would need to be pulled into LY, and then the binaries created from there. If LY is exactly identical to CE then this could be long-winded (there are a LOT of assets) and there are always weird dependency issues that crop up. This will then create binaries with a LY stamp instead of a CE one.

What gets really tough is when CIG have made customisations to the underlying CE code, as these will need to be migrated to LY before you can even think about doing the above. If CIG are claiming >50% of changes over base Cryengine then the work will be a nightmare. And then they have to re-build the actual product.

hairychris · Dec 14, 2017

AJW said:
Regarding the 'migration to Lumberyard' thing, the filing claims that CIG signed a contract to develop SC using CryEngine exclusively. Rewriting code to use Lumberyard doesn't get around that, it makes it worse...

They're damned either way assuming the allegations are true.

FWIW I'm only pondering what would happen if CE get an injunction to prevent CIG from using Cryengine and have to fully migrate to LY!

1500 · Dec 14, 2017

Snarfbuckle said:
It's odd though.

- They had a licence to use Cryengine in a specific way to create Star Citizen
- They ALSO purchased a FULL license in case Cryengine went under
- Would not the FULL license invalidate some of the demands from CryTek?

You don't know what a Full License means, or if or what they purchased. It is still a License from Crytek.

Skizomeuh · Dec 14, 2017

Next episode: Illfonic and other angry contractors will make their turn too ^^

hairychris · Dec 14, 2017

1500 said:
You don't know what a Full License means, or if or what they purchased. It is still a License from Crytek.

Apparently CIG don't know what a Full License means either! [hehe]

hairychris · Dec 14, 2017

Skizomeuh said:
Next episode: Illfonic and other angry contractors will make their turn too ^^

A meta to consider is that Crytek see the writing on the wall and want to get their cash out of CIG before they fold.

But that's a conspiracy theory. [big grin]

ianw · Dec 14, 2017

Tough week for the believers.

First Derek was right about something huge they didn't see coming.

And secondly two large refunding whales turn out to be real.

Snarfbuckle · Dec 14, 2017

hairychris said:
They're damned either way assuming the allegations are true.

FWIW I'm only pondering what would happen if CE get an injunction to prevent CIG from using Cryengine and have to fully migrate to LY!

Same here.

- Can Crytek claim LY is Cryengine due to source code.
- How distant is LY from Cryengine in code
- Can Crytek forbid Amazon to allow CIG to use code.
- Can CIG easily move their code to LY.

Winterwalker · Dec 14, 2017

Dooguk said:
I think CIG thought Crytek was going to die and all this would disappear.

Obviously we don't know the terms of the full license but might be arguable CryTech's financials weren't helped by the sliding stretch goals and scope expansion,at CIG. They might reasonably have expected SC (on original scope) to have been a released title long ago, and they would have been receiving royalties in line with that release day. They didn't and that hit their margins.

Best damn copyright infringment case ever!

MTBFritz · Dec 14, 2017

hairychris said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MzzuiQVTDw for Leonard French's livestream just starting to discuss this.

Derek Smart is in there too (in the chat) and people are simply going into a FRENZY about him, seriously you wonder who the super star in this Star Citizen drama is

GuruNot · Dec 14, 2017

3. In 2012, Defendants sought to develop a new game called “Star Citizen,” which was billed as an epic space adventure, trading, and dogfighting video
game. To make that game a reality, Defendants sought to use the CryEngine videogame development platform as its foundation. Crytek and Defendants agreed to preliminary license terms and invested significant time and expense in
creating impressive demonstrations and proofs-of-concept that were used to persuade the public to contribute financially to a “crowdfunding” campaign to support development of the video game. As a direct result of Crytek’s efforts, the crowdfunding campaign for Star Citizen was a monumental success, raising over 150 million dollars — a record for video game crowdfunding projects.
4. Crytek and Defendants subsequently formalized their relationship by
entering into a Game License Agreement. In that Agreement, Defendants promised, among other things, (i) to use the CryEngine game development platform exclusively and to promote that platform within the video game, (ii) to collaborate with Crytek on CryEngine development, and (iii) to take a number of steps to ensure that Crytek’s intellectual property was protected. Defendants utterly failed to follow through on those promises, and their actions and omissions constitute breaches of contract and copyright infringement and have caused substantial harm to Crytek.
5. By this action, Crytek seeks damages that will fairly and fully compensate it for Defendants’ breach and infringement. If this relief is not granted, Defendants will continue to profit unjustly at Crytek’s expense.

We are aware of the complaint having been filed in the US District Court. CIG hasn’t used the CryEngine for quite some time since we switched to Amazon’s Lumberyard. This is a meritless lawsuit that we will defend vigorously against, including recovering from Crytek any costs incurred in this matter.

Should be an interesting ride.

AJW · Dec 14, 2017

hairychris said:
They're damned either way assuming the allegations are true.

FWIW I'm only pondering what would happen if CE get an injunction to prevent CIG from using Cryengine and have to fully migrate to LY!

I suspect that it would be an absolute nightmare, both from a logistical and legal perspective. A worst-case scenario might involve CIG having to hire an entirely new team (who'd never seen CryEngine code, and wouldn't be permitted to see any code CIG currently use) to rewrite everything from scratch. Otherwise, how could anyone be certain that CryEngine code (or concepts based on it) wasn't still being used? This may seem implausible, but I'm fairly certain I read somewhere about a company having to do exactly that after being found to have reverse-engineered someone else's copyright code.

hairychris · Dec 14, 2017

MTBFritz said:
Derek Smart is in there too (in the chat) and people are simply going into a FRENZY about him, seriously you wonder who the super star in this Star Citizen drama is

I'd never heard of him before Star Citizen.

Make of that what you will.

MTBFritz · Dec 14, 2017

hairychris said:
I'd never heard of him before Star Citizen.

Make of that what you will.

You and most people I reckon...I m one of them for sure

hairychris · Dec 14, 2017

Snarfbuckle said:
Same here.

- Can Crytek claim LY is Cryengine due to source code.

Probably not. I would assume that Amazon bought the "keys to the castle" unlike CIG.

Snarfbuckle said:
- How distant is LY from Cryengine in code

No idea. Fairly close at the beginning, but with enough difference to make migrating a complicated project a pain. After they forked it'd get further & further away as development completely diverged.

Snarfbuckle said:
- Can Crytek forbid Amazon to allow CIG to use code.

Probably not, same as #1.

Snarfbuckle said:
- Can CIG easily move their code to LY.

The $200million question. Star Engine is a heavily modded Cryengine so probably not.

ianw · Dec 14, 2017

MTBFritz said:
Derek Smart is in there too (in the chat) and people are simply going into a FRENZY about him, seriously you wonder who the super star in this Star Citizen drama is

Derek isn't the only big name there - "Chris Roberts" chimed in;

3:51 PMMac Rodand friends to the project, if the worse happened we would be ok, as we’ve already branched the engine and have a large team that is adding features and

Chris Roberts
€2.00

Derek Smart was right!

3:51 PMfoxw00dlul