PvP My experience with the PvP hub - a shout out and kudos

[StiTch]

I do not like to see players playing for the sole reason of ruining other players' games. Games are too special for me to enjoy that. "It's just a game" for me is a phrase that misses the point of why some people play games. It's just music, it's just a painting, it's just a book are less likely phrases. But games have elements of those art forms in it, and combines them with interaction providing a short shallow escape from mundane reality. Games are, or rather can be, an experience. On the other hand, games also can be a way to let of steam. Just getting your rocks off for a few minutes. And when the two different expectations meet, you get this disconnect.

Just as a note on this: the automatic association of PvP with murder/ganking does no-one any favours. This playerbase would be able to have umpteen times more positive discussions if we handled the two concepts differently - in the same way Open play is related to, but not synonymous with, PvP.

When I say I want to improve PvP, I mean it in quite a broad sense, and generally involves concepts that would make murder harder...or at least, gives it some consequence and improves heavily on PvP bounty hunting. Sometimes though I find it hard to portray that to folks that hear "PvP" and immediately assume I'm trying to drag more seals to Open play.

Something I find puts it in perspective was that chat involving the buckyballers, in which we established buckyball racing constitutes PvP. You're players competing against other players - that's as raw as "PvP" gets, right?

As it happens, mindless seal clubbing doesn't particularly do it for me either. There needs to be some...pizzazz. Zarek practically had me on the floor laughing with his childminding skills.

 

[Morbad]

EDIT: Yes random malfunctions including power plant malfunction, and if you're in the middle of getting your shields back this malfunction will reset it even if PP is at full health.

Some DD setups can't fit both shields and thrusters below that critical 40% output level, especially if they are using a power plant spun for integrity, but if you rely on your collapse shield regen I would probably recommend making the shields top priority, even if it means you lose thrusters for five seconds during a malfunction. It's a tough call though.

Just as a note on this: the automatic association of PvP with murder/ganking does no-one any favours. This playerbase would be able to have umpteen times more positive discussions if we handled the two concepts differently - in the same way Open play is related to, but not synonymous with, PvP.

When I say I want to improve PvP, I mean it in quite a broad sense, and generally involves concepts that would make murder harder...or at least, gives it some consequence and improves heavily on PvP bounty hunting. Sometimes though I find it hard to portray that to folks that hear "PvP" and immediately assume I'm trying to drag more seals to Open play.

Something I find puts it in perspective was that chat involving the buckyballers, in which we established buckyball racing constitutes PvP. You're players competing against other players - that's as raw as "PvP" gets, right?

As it happens, mindless seal clubbing doesn't particularly do it for me either. There needs to be some...pizzazz. Zarek practically had me on the floor laughing with his childminding skills.

I haven't even used an interdictor on another CMDR in more than two years outside of beta or completely consensual testing purposes, and at least 95% of my 1.5k-odd PvP encounters were a direct result of someone shooting at my CMDR first, or pledging to the side opposite of the one he was already on in a CZ. Still, I often find my comments dismissed as those from someone 'just trying to make it easier to victimize people'.

Personally, nothing that improves the game can help but improve PvP and vice versa. From my perspective there are no downsides to increased plausibility, verisimilitude, and consistency...and no upsides to further sacrifices in those areas.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Just as a note on this: the automatic association of PvP with murder/ganking does no-one any favours.

Dude you had to cut off: "I like PvP as well. Just not as a participant. On the other hand, I really hate PvP. Doesn't help now does it?

Nuance, I like to see players involved in a test of skills. Since I do not own those skills, for me it's a spectators sport. "
to make that point

The selective quoting to misrepresent a post and serve it for self martyrdom doesn't do anyone any favours either. Get off your cross.

This playerbase would be able to have umpteen times more positive discussions if we handled the two concepts differently

You mean like I did in my post?

Key riced.

 

[PeLucheuh]

The selective quoting to misrepresent a post and serve it for self martyrdom doesn't do anyone any favours either. Get off your cross.

Do what i say not what i do, amirite ? [heart]

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do what i say not what i do, amirite ? [heart]

I misrepresented that post did I? Go on. Do elaborate

 

[StiTch]

The selective quoting to misrepresent a post and serve it for self martyrdom doesn't do anyone any favours either. Get off your cross.

Er...yes, darling.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't pulling you up on anything; I was simply making a comment based on something your post made me think of.

I wasn't chastising you for any of it, and I cut parts out because where possible I only quote what I am making reference to. This forum would be a lot cleaner, and posts a lot less misunderstood, if people didn't quote an entire wall of text when they're only responding to a single sentence within it.

Apologies if I came across as abrasive. This thread needs to remain full of nothing but love and hugs from here on <3

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Er...yes, darling.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't pulling you up on anything; I was simply making a comment based on something your post made me think of.

I wasn't chastising you for any of it, and I cut parts out because where possible I only quote what I am making reference to. This forum would be a lot cleaner, and posts a lot less misunderstood, if people didn't quote an entire wall of text when they're only responding to a single sentence within it.

Apologies if I came across as abrasive. This thread needs to remain full of nothing but love and hugs from here on <3

So what you were actually doing was use my post as a shining example of the way how people should refer to PvP as a multi faceted aspect of Elite Dangerous?

Why thank you very much. I apologize for taking that post as criticism. I must say I was taken aback that someone would be critical towards one of my many pearls of wisdom, because that's just unheard off. Glad to hear sense prevails.

 

[Han_Zen]

So what you were actually doing was use my post as a shining example of the way how people should refer to PvP as a multi faceted aspect of Elite Dangerous?

Why thank you very much. I apologize for taking that post as criticism. I must say I was taken aback that someone would be critical towards one of my many pearls of wisdom, because that's just unheard off. Glad to hear sense prevails.

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

 

[StiTch]

I must say I was taken aback that someone would be critical towards one of my many pearls of wisdom, because that's just unheard off. Glad to hear sense prevails.

I've been collecting your pearls, and I nearly have enough to form a necklace. I'm going to proudly sport it as a Ziggy original. Nothing wrong with this that I can think of.

I actually heartily agree with the notion players have a disconnect when expectations clash. To some, Elite is a half hour of zen trading when they get in from work, and damn the details. To others, Elite is a universe begging to be changed by an inspired and motivated individual...(yup, just made myself laugh).

The issue is simply that the latter don't get that experience at the moment, partially due to networking but largely due to PG/Solo influence. My "ideal" would however always be to cater to both expectations; on a basic level, a BGS split for example.

That offline solo was binned was one of the crowning failures IMO.

 

[Theodrid]

Just as a note on this: the automatic association of PvP with murder/ganking does no-one any favours. This playerbase would be able to have umpteen times more positive discussions.

I 100% agree Stitch they should be separate entities and treated as such but this takes us back to what we were discussing the other day, where is the separation from genuine PVP players when the gankers are gloating on these boards and others? You see, as I was saying, seeing and feeling that separation would help the non PVP players out no end in terms of feeling they could have meaningful discussions. What we tend to see at the moment is the murder ganking videos are declared 'hilarious' and 'the funniest thing I've ever seen' by many of the more vocal PVP players on these boards. If more of you guys were telling the gankers/murderers that their videos sucked, that they sucked then your average PVE forum reader would be able to tell the wood from the trees and see that separation.

I know, I know, it's not your, or others, job to do so, that's fine but don't be surprised that when there is apparent approval of ganking, murder and seal clubbing that folk think, 'hmmm, they like that perhaps they partake'.

 

[tymbark]

Some DD setups can't fit both shields and thrusters below that critical 40% output level, especially if they are using a power plant spun for integrity, but if you rely on your collapse shield regen I would probably recommend making the shields top priority, even if it means you lose thrusters for five seconds during a malfunction. It's a tough call though.

I lose thrusters either way once PP is triggered. It's funny I maxed out integrity primarily to counter penetrators and now I have to deal with this.

 

[StiTch]

I 100% agree Stitch they should be separate entities and treated as such but this takes us back to what we were discussing the other day, where is the separation from genuine PVP players when the gankers are gloating on these boards and others? You see, as I was saying, seeing and feeling that separation would help the non PVP players out no end in terms of feeling they could have meaningful discussions. What we tend to see at the moment is the murder ganking videos are declared 'hilarious' and 'the funniest thing I've ever seen' by many of the more vocal PVP players on these boards. If more of you guys were telling the gankers/murderers that their videos sucked, that they sucked then your average PVE forum reader would be able to tell the wood from the trees and see that separation.

I know, I know, it's not your, or others, job to do so, that's fine but don't be surprised that when there is apparent approval of ganking, murder and seal clubbing that folk think, 'hmmm, they like that perhaps they partake'.

I have professed gank videos to be boring before, but only when they're actually boring I am not going to denounce ganking or murder outright, and more importantly I don't want it to be denounced. I am certainly not going to try and promote acceptance of PvP by slating aspects of it, as much as some players don't like it.

However if you look through this thread you'll see a known member of one of ED's more well known PvP groups being dumped on by multiple PvPers for being unreasonable. We do call out anyone on being out of order.

I've heard your concerns before and ultimately this is something that any "team" has to deal with when in competition with any other team ever: is the other side being honest? There is no real way to answer it, but assuming the worst of the "other" side puts you in the wrong before ya have started.

 

[Theodrid]

I have professed gank videos to be boring before, but only when they're actually boring I am not going to denounce ganking or murder outright, and more importantly I don't want it to be denounced. I am certainly not going to try and promote acceptance of PvP by slating aspects of it, as much as some players don't like it.

However if you look through this thread you'll see a known member of one of ED's more well known PvP groups being dumped on by multiple PvPers for being unreasonable. We do call out anyone on being out of order.

I've heard your concerns before and ultimately this is something that any "team" has to deal with when in competition with any other team ever: is the other side being honest? There is no real way to answer it, but assuming the worst of the "other" side puts you in the wrong before ya have started.

Agreed, but it happens from both sides of the fence, and as I said, if it isn't going to be denounced how on earth does your average forumite tell the difference between your average PVP'er and your average ganker to have real discussion with the former?

 

[StiTch]

Agreed, but it happens from both sides of the fence, and as I said, if it isn't going to be denounced how on earth does your average forumite tell the difference between your average PVP'er and your average ganker to have real discussion with the former?

Why should they need to? Until FD designate murder as cheating, it is as legitimate as any other activity; refusing to engage with someone because they kill players in-game is akin to refusing to engage with someone because they play in PG.

What determines the validity of a post is the content of that post; attempting to judge the poster behind it is part of the toxicity that needs to go.

"Discuss the post, not the poster".

 

[Theodrid]

Why should they need to? Until FD designate murder as cheating, it is as legitimate as any other activity; refusing to engage with someone because they kill players in-game is akin to refusing to engage with someone because they play in PG.

What determines the validity of a post is the content of that post; attempting to judge the poster behind it is part of the toxicity that needs to go.

"Discuss the post, not the poster".

Oh come on Stitch, in an ideal world, yes, but please lets not pretend that posters aren't judged because of their signatures, the group they choose to align with, their previous postings - it all happens and to a greater or lesser degree from all of us.

'Why should they need to?' - because guess what, people don't feel they can have a meaningful discussion with the folk that call them a 'crymunity', they don't appreciate being called 'cowards' or 'forumdads', they don't like being accused of 'hiding' or being in 'safe space'. And with no tangible distinction on show because 'why should they need to?' then your average forumite has no way of knowing who they are talking to or how it will be received. The evidence they actually do have to go on is the above insults and 'why should we condemn them', now tell me, how is that a starter for 10 for good discourse?

 

[StiTch]

Oh come on Stitch, in an ideal world, yes, but please lets not pretend that posters aren't judged because of their signatures, the group they choose to align with, their previous postings - it all happens and to a greater or lesser degree from all of us.

'Why should they need to?' - because guess what, people don't feel they can have a meaningful discussion with the folk that call them a 'crymunity', they don't appreciate being called 'cowards' or 'forumdads', they don't like being accused of 'hiding' or being in 'safe space'. And with no tangible distinction on show because 'why should they need to?' then your average forumite has no way of knowing who they are talking to or how it will be received. The evidence they actually do have to go on is the above insults and 'why should we condemn them', now tell me, how is that a starter for 10 for good discourse?

If someone cannot hold a conversation without making it personal, that's their own problem - and the solution is not to stoop to their level.

If insults are being thrown around in the discussion, then you can correctly identify those posts as non-serious and respond or ignore as appropriate.

For every "forumdad" or "crybaby" comment there's someone calling pirates griefers, or insinuating they are sick people IRL. Insults are going to come from either side from the odd person. It doesn't mean we should never have another discussion ever.

 

[Theodrid]

If someone cannot hold a conversation without making it personal, that's their own problem - and the solution is not to stoop to their level.

If insults are being thrown around in the discussion, then you can correctly identify those posts as non-serious and respond or ignore as appropriate.

For every "forumdad" or "crybaby" comment there's someone calling pirates griefers, or insinuating they are sick people IRL. Insults are going to come from either side from the odd person. It doesn't mean we should never have another discussion ever.

Stitch, be honest here as I will, I've screwed up on occasion on these boards, I've generalised, thrown the baby out with the bath water and, on occasion I've been plain wrong, in certain cases I've apologised. I'm sure you've done the same, and, as I said two posts ago, it's from both sides, but can you honestly say that if I went through your post history on here and other mediums I wouldn't find a generalisation or insult in there?

Being honest again here, in terms of the PVP community that do post here it is actually at least 50%, probably a majority to be honest, that do, on a regular basis use terms like 'hiding' and worse, or insinuate that the Mobius group is a hive mind instead of <insert active player number here> individuals playing PVE. Of course we can have a discussion again, but, as I said some bridges do need to be built in certain areas - from both sides - for that to be a reality, it isn't realistic to expect a nice civil discussion on PVP mechanics in one thread while being told you are a griefer/carebear by the very same poster in another. It isn't realistic to expect a conversation when you are being called a 'xxxxxxx forumdad xxxxx' on reddit.

I want to reach that point of discussion Stitch, I really do but you have to recognise as I do that there is a problem, you can't really expect me to buy you a pint when you've spent the last two, three years either knocking my beers over on purpose or finding it hilarious when someone else does it and declaring 'why should I condemn them?'.

 

[StiTch]

can you honestly say that if I went through your post history on here and other mediums I wouldn't find a generalisation or insult in there?

Oh no, don't mistake me; I am not pretending I am an angel. I've had a few infractions by now-some fairly earned and some unfairly-but either way I've thrown a fair few insults, and still do on occasion when I deem the OP or chap I am responding to as non-serious.

The point I am making is simply that if I am throwing insults, I'm clearly not attempting to open up constructive discourse. People are welcome to ignore me, insult me back, or justify whatever I was calling out. It doesn't mean I cannot open up some constructive conversation when the OP isn't silly.

As for pints, I'd like to think at the end of the day, we can put pitchforks down and spread the love. First pint is on me <3

 

[Theodrid]

Oh no, don't mistake me; I am not pretending I am an angel. I've had a few infractions by now-some fairly earned and some unfairly-but either way I've thrown a fair few insults, and still do on occasion when I deem the OP or chap I am responding to as non-serious.

The point I am making is simply that if I am throwing insults, I'm clearly not attempting to open up constructive discourse. People are welcome to ignore me, insult me back, or justify whatever I was calling out. It doesn't mean I cannot open up some constructive conversation when the OP isn't silly.

As for pints, I'd like to think at the end of the day, we can put pitchforks down and spread the love. First pint is on me <3

Hey, feel for me mate, I may have arranged a few beers with Goose! :O

Anyhoo, that's kinda my point bud, it's tough to put the pitch fork down when someone has been insulting you that same day, or two days earlier, if ALL of the more moderate voice son these boards could call out the muppets on both sides of the fence more we would have a much more solid foundation to start discussing the real issues instead of trying to mine salt or psychologically evaluate each other.

 

[StiTch]

Anyhoo, that's kinda my point bud, it's tough to put the pitch fork down when someone has been insulting you that same day, or two days earlier, if ALL of the more moderate voice son these boards could call out the muppets on both sides of the fence more we would have a much more solid foundation to start discussing the real issues instead of trying to mine salt or psychologically evaluate each other.

Welcome to the internet

It's always gonna be six of one, half a dozen of the other. I appreciate your intentions are nothing but pristine, but as you say, if we were to do the incredible and throw off yonder shackles of toxicity, it would have to be an all-round effort. As I said: for every carebear comment, or players asking to remove PG entirely, there's someone yelling "griefer!" at anyone that mentions PvP and insists it is relegated to consensual handbag fights in the corner.

What's potentially more problematic is that while the PvP muppets are generally visible from a mile away (typically they know this and rely on it), the latter of the above muppet-ness is pretty accepted around here. No one is prepared to call out players that absolutely refuse to discuss PvP players getting content.