Flagging griefers
- Thread starter Gueromarinero
- Start date
Only the illuminati know for sure.
The whole topic of griefing is a very polarizing one.
It stems from player behaviour and the bad taste this can possibly leave.
A karma system, like flagging, was thought through several times,
there are tons of suggestions about this topic.
It is very hard to put the finger on what griefing really is,
as every action has a motive, with some being actual legit gameplay,
stopping you from contributing, a.k.a. blockading efforts a cg highlights.
The topic however does not stop at that point, it even starts there,
as the reaction of the affected players is noteworthy, too.
It is an issue in every game that allows player interaction
on a combat level.
It is most apparent in highly dense player populated systems,
like CG grounds or event systems, outside of that the chances
to encounter are lower, but still possible.
A true two-edged sword.
It stems from player behaviour and the bad taste this can possibly leave.
A karma system, like flagging, was thought through several times,
there are tons of suggestions about this topic.
It is very hard to put the finger on what griefing really is,
as every action has a motive, with some being actual legit gameplay,
stopping you from contributing, a.k.a. blockading efforts a cg highlights.
The topic however does not stop at that point, it even starts there,
as the reaction of the affected players is noteworthy, too.
It is an issue in every game that allows player interaction
on a combat level.
It is most apparent in highly dense player populated systems,
like CG grounds or event systems, outside of that the chances
to encounter are lower, but still possible.
A true two-edged sword.
Sorry unless guy is multiple time attacking you hes not a griefer the game is supposed to be do as you wish so if you accept there are good guys you have to accept there are bad guys pirates and killers
You didn't put much thought into this, did you?
Deleted member 110222
D
Punctuation? I know, I know. Grammar fascist and all that. But I could only read that really quickly, and with no breathers.
I don't see much evidence that you did either.
If you're going to criticize, then please add your critique. All you did was heckle which frankly is less than useless.
o7
Punctuation? I know, I know. Grammar fascist and all that. But I could only read that really quickly, and with no breathers.
I like you Un1k0rn so I say with love: Don't be a troll!
Some people don't have the gift of grammar that you and I do[Should there be a comma here?] (and let's face it[,]I don't always get it right either) (Do I put my full stop here or inside the brackets?)
There may be a hundred reasons that a body doesn't know the right punctuation and it's simply another form of bullying to point out their errors to them. If you understood what they were trying to convey then they did their job. Leave it at that and move on.
o7
This doesn't really solve issues around criminal conduct in public places in open, does it. Actual universal laws that apply to behaviours, be it against AI or CMDR, does, though.
Frontier are, instead, persisting with the notion that if you just keep slapping people on the wrist, refuse to hold people accountable (again consistently, across the board) and make entire types of engagement ingane completely untenable, then everything will be fine.
The issue isn't that people will do something, or other. It's Frontiers persistence in having inconsistent responses to that. The laws that should be straight forward are becoming incredibly convoluted, and don't actually address the issues. It's also not helped by people who believe they should be above the law, and it's everyone else's fault. So just ban them. Or make them leave. Or make their experience garbage to force them out.
So we end up in these endless circle-jerks of blame-shifting. The issues aren't fellow commanders, it's Frontier's sodding lip-service to consequences and enforcement of. And people are so invested in making it all about other players, Frontier can continue that lip-service, indefinitely.
Consistent, enforced law, with scaled responses based on degree of crime, location of and nature of repetition. Consistent. Global. Enforced law that is keyed to activity, location, security level, degree of crime and repetition of. The very thing other games seem to be able to mostly sort out.
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You are quite correct, it wasn't meant to.
I feel that the issue of crime and punishment is probably insoluble with the systems that ED have implemented so my thought. such as it was, was meant to address the issue of having a safe harbour for those of us that still wished to play in 'Open' without having to limit the population in our instance to a maximum of 20000 commanders, which if I have it right is the limit for any 'Private Group'.
I want to play with all the commanders in ED, including the station trolls and gankers, but still have my say as to when I should risk meeting them and when I can be reasonably sure not to.
o7
Ostensibly, Frontier had some nostalgic ideas around crime, piracy and that combat would be "rare and meaningful" and simply assumed this would self manage if there were some basic bounties.
You should see the original concepts around what Elite actually meant. It was supposed to be some massive challenge that only a few would master and they could then help others to achieve and it would all be grand and marvelous. It's now just a meaningless, soulless, cumulative stat.
Like how many times you've sold cargo. Or how far you've driven a 6 wheel buggy. It's just a stat, like many others, that simply tracks how much resilience you have to repeating the same actions. Repeatedly.
I think people are so hung up, so buried in the idea that it's other people that's the problem; it's become so ingrained, that folks are simply missing the bigger picture. It's not whether someone will or won't do a thing. Assume they will, and then address that. Making people not do a thing, doesn't work. Rather, it's setting the consequences and building a framework when you instead assume they will do a thing.
This is what's missing. People demand that people don't do a thing. And then get angry when they do that thing. It's not up to us to decide what people should or should not do; that's not on us. It's on Frontier to manage. And they, frankly? refuse to. Beyond some very complicated measures that do not actually address the actual problem.
I'm not sure how many more convoluted ways you go about trying to slap some people on the wrist, and then wholesale destroy mechanics for others (pirates have been pretty majestically screwed of late) but presumably this isn't going to scale or work, regardless of how many times they try and find complicated solutions no-one understands.
So, maybe the issue is less the behaviour, and instead making it so the game better manages that, for either side of 'the law'. Actual, meaningful mechanics that ensure there's some actual structure to the thing.
A game that can offer a lot of choice, good or bad, but that can also adequately manage that good or bad, is a magical thing.
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I wouldn't disagree with you but as a game designer on a much smaller scale than Frontier I know the difficulties involved in trying to make AI rules to address inveterate game Trolls and their behaviour. This only leaves iether a method of confining them to their own space, or blocking them from yours.
Any other alternative requires that volunteers police their behaviour on the fly which is also fraught with problems.
o7
We know the AI can be a much stronger force, that it actually is possible to police crime and have consistent laws; it happens all the time and we see endless threads on people facing rebuy. The two places consequences are metered out, are when people accidentally shoot at a horde of cops, or become wanted at a station. Due to the escalated response, the success rate of the constabulary is very high.
It's not that Frontier cannot scale a response; or have a reasonable 'stick'. It's that they have actively chosen not to.
It's not a case of making people police their behaviour; it's that there should be a genuine expectation of consequence, and that that should be, depending on level of crime and it's repetition, be a considerable threat, consistent and leveled against the security of system.
There are technical concerns; and I get that. But this isn't solely the case here. It's the (very low) willingness to hold commanders adequately responsible; and instead meter out inconsistent bounties because that's all very complicated and interesting.
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Police will never be a consequence. They're a joke, and will always be a joke, because the more difficult you make them the more fun people will have squashing them and then doing what they set out to do in the first place.
All you're doing is providing the "griefers" with practice, and the "victims" with more salt as they watch their supposed saviors get mopped up.
The higher you crank the dial, the higher you set the barrier of entry for someone who wants to murder. The higher that bar is, the more talented the murderers.
They're not going anywhere. You're not going to stop them or even thin their numbers by cranking up the difficulty of their gameplay. Instead you'll bring murderers who quit because they were bored back to the game when their buddies tell them things have been amped up.
Eve Online tried this. They kept bumping up the police until the police response was literally a cheating, inescapable insta-kill that took no damage no matter how skilled you were or what you were flying.
The players fought them to a stalemate just to prove the point I'm talking about. The developers had to make other changes.
...
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My post has disappeared so I will make this short. I have experienced the same thing today in Ngalia and that is definitely not what I was looking for. I am flying Corvette with kind of "funny" PvE loadout and was able to take some of those idiots down, but died twice myself. I did not came to CG to fight every 10 minutes some players! It really makes no sense to have such a huge differences between PvE and PvP builds. All those things in space are pretty much same ships, no? Why do we need different build for PvP and different for PvE? It is not logical at all. And btw, there was one player in FDL and I was unable to take down even one ring from his shields. And my Corvette has two huge MCs (engineered) and 5 burst lasers (engineered - more or less). How could that be even possible? Cheat? Or serious PvP build? So guys... how about to make some kind of ATF team and at least try to bring some order to CG zones? Make some decent PvP builds and focus on those idiots? Maybe even players recently in CG would help?
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As will nothing else, at this point. The police are simply an allegory of how the game considers crime in general - a bit of a nuisance, perhaps people could not? Good to chat.
Frontier made a decision to have essentially a free-for-all; and instead of telling people "this is how it is, get over it", they keep flip-flopping over crime, sending mixed messages. It's lead to a groundswell for putative garbage outcomes.
And I don't think anyone has ever asked for the Gestapo, just for the thing to make sense and be a bit more consistent. Hell, even those executing a life of crime have also (repeatedly) asked for some sodding consistency. And thank you for exampling EVE, because that's pretty much where Frontier are heading. Endless ways to try and punish people.. Which never works. This isn't news to anyone.
You don't need jackboots and secret police, to have some consistency in response. Just clear laws, clear lines. So players know where they are at, what they can expect, and what sort of risk vector they have to deal with. Rip the damn bandage off the wound.
Anything else just creates confusion and low player satisfaction; and guess what we have.
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