The epic fail of Beyond

[Marcus Tullius]

And not using suisidy to clear inconvenient bounties

Do you know what was one of first the comments about my signature? Quick Att+F4. People always suspect their own vices in others

Let me first say that I like the game, play it several times a week (at the moment anyway), want it to succeed and believe that it will continue to improve exponentially, although perhaps at a pace that may not be fast enough to prevent some players continuing to burn out with alarming regularity.

The problem as I see it, and one of the main reasons I believe people have lost/never had faith in Fdev and the Beyond series of updates is that I sometimes feel that Frontier have a habit of making decisions which put artificial barriers in the way of players accessing the fun bits of the game.

I don't fully understand if this is deliberate, perhaps because of a relative paucity of entertaining game mechanics, so barriers are being put up to try and stretch out the fun bits - with the unfortunate effect of adding an unnecessary layer of frustration which eventually sucks the fun out of the experiece for some people, or if it's down to Fdev having a wildly different view of what is fun and what is frustrating than many of ED's players or even if it is down to ED's playerbase being so diverse that Fdev's attempts to please everyone have resulted in many less than fun/ok-ish mechanics which when combined with the often obtuse obstacles which have been put in front of players creates frustration.

Either way, ED can be a very very frustrating game at times for me, I cannot play it at all when other areas of my life are not going as well as I would like, as I do not have the capacity or mental energy to tolerate in-game frustration at the same time as RL frustration.

I am hopeful that the beyond updates will address some of this. Reducing frustration is exactly what Quality of Life updates means to me, however I can 100% understand why people might not trust the word of or be willing to just go on faith regarding people who from a certain perspective appear to have been actively trying to make it more difficult for people to enjoy their game (not that that perspective is necessarily correct, but it is a perspective I can understand)

I choose to take a more optimistic approach, especially given that Fdev have acknowledged the frustrations and out right said, we're taking the next year to fix all of that rather than add a bunch of new frustrations. It would beggar belief to admit your shortcomings only to immediately repeat them.

Understanding that there is a problem is the first step in fixing it. I view Beyond as Fdev putting their hand up and saying loud and clear "we understand there is a problem and we're going to try to fix it", it might not all get fixed on the first attempt, and sometimes things get worse before they get better but at least in my eyes Frontier are putting their focus where it should be: fixing the core game, that's enough for me for now, but I get that it's not enough for everyone.

I said this in one of my threads:

Why I’m not impressed by the delay of 2.3 beta.
Waiting every major release I’m losing my faith in FDev’s ability to surprise me. It doesn’t matter how much and impressive game mechanics they will provide if there is so limited gameplay. Don’t get me wrong folks, I’ve tried all engineers’ upgrades, I’ve trained an NPC pilot from harmless to elite, but up to now the season 2 has nothing in different from season 1. More powerful ships to fight into the same CZ and ResSites, ancient discoveries that lead to nowhere, variety of missions for gaining the standing with artificial factions, etc. are not gameplay features but enhancing the existent ones. Flying the uber modified Corvette or Cutter doesn’t make me to feel something different from space gipsy than back in the day I was in Sidewinder, if I’m enchained to the ship and cannot hire a simple warehouse in station. Senseless and absolutely useless player factions’ mechanic, even to create a player group I have to ask for FDevs blessing, useless factions’ influence, inability to create anything, everything is so pointless and useless. The ED universe is static, lifeless and artificial as it was in December 2014.

I was right. I started present thread as a humble attempt to wake up someone in FD. Despite of few offliners overtrolling every thread related to multiplayer gameplay, a lot of people are waiting for Squadrons to create their player groups by ingame tools but IMO Squadrons will follow destiny of 2.3. if there isn’t new multiplayer level of interaction with the game.

What I saw in other aspects about Beyond?

More powerful tools for trading. Is this really a matter if we don’t have trading in ED? Static prices of auto generated commodities.

Mining? What if we will be able to discover deposits of ore if we cannot build a simple mining site to exploit them? And what for? To sell mined resources for credits. Another QoL improvement but nothing added to core gameplay.

Exploration? The only challenge in exploration is to not die from boredom. Tourism, not exploration.

Without digging into the core there couldn’t be core gameplay changes.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Let me first say that I like the game, play it several times a week (at the moment anyway), want it to succeed and believe that it will continue to improve exponentially, although perhaps at a pace that may not be fast enough to prevent some players continuing to burn out with alarming regularity.

The problem as I see it, and one of the main reasons I believe people have lost/never had faith in Fdev and the Beyond series of updates is that I sometimes feel that Frontier have a habit of making decisions which put artificial barriers in the way of players accessing the fun bits of the game.

I don't fully understand if this is deliberate, perhaps because of a relative paucity of entertaining game mechanics, so barriers are being put up to try and stretch out the fun bits - with the unfortunate effect of adding an unnecessary layer of frustration which eventually sucks the fun out of the experiece for some people, or if it's down to Fdev having a wildly different view of what is fun and what is frustrating than many of ED's players or even if it is down to ED's playerbase being so diverse that Fdev's attempts to please everyone have resulted in many less than fun/ok-ish mechanics which when combined with the often obtuse obstacles which have been put in front of players creates frustration.

Either way, ED can be a very very frustrating game at times for me, I cannot play it at all when other areas of my life are not going as well as I would like, as I do not have the capacity or mental energy to tolerate in-game frustration at the same time as RL frustration.

I am hopeful that the beyond updates will address some of this. Reducing frustration is exactly what Quality of Life updates means to me, however I can 100% understand why people might not trust the word of or be willing to just go on faith regarding people who from a certain perspective appear to have been actively trying to make it more difficult for people to enjoy their game (not that that perspective is necessarily correct, but it is a perspective I can understand)

I choose to take a more optimistic approach, especially given that Fdev have acknowledged the frustrations and out right said, we're taking the next year to fix all of that rather than add a bunch of new frustrations. It would beggar belief to admit your shortcomings only to immediately repeat them.

Understanding that there is a problem is the first step in fixing it. I view Beyond as Fdev putting their hand up and saying loud and clear "we understand there is a problem and we're going to try to fix it", it might not all get fixed on the first attempt, and sometimes things get worse before they get better but at least in my eyes Frontier are putting their focus where it should be: fixing the core game, that's enough for me for now, but I get that it's not enough for everyone.

Transration (sic): Frontier is a bad Dungeon Master.

 

[babelfisch]

How is one's opinion of the game nonsense? Note there is a clear difference and trend in posts here with some posting opinions about the game with others that focus on posting opinions on the poster - and not the game. This probably more than anything leads to labels.

On topic: FDev could certainly put their customer support people to good use by engaging more with this forum, and help answer any concerns or topics that come up in threads like this that concern the game and what Beyond will or will not bring.

In that case I suggest you stop posting your opinions on me because it really gets boring.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

On topic: FDev could certainly put their customer support people to good use by engaging more with this forum, and help answer any concerns or topics that come up in threads like this that concern the game and what Beyond will or will not bring.

I'd rather they spent their time dealing with problems that were important enough to raise tickets for instead of wasting time on countless forum spats and posters who think that Elite's game design is 100% a democracy.

 

[Susanna]

LOL, you obviously haven't been around many gaming forums have you? Either that, or no developer listens to sensible feedback. Take your pick

How about this, in order to do what Player A wants, they have to not do something Player B wants. Player B then gets upset and writes a doom and gloom thread on the forums. Maybe then devs do what Player B wants, but Player C gets annoyed because Player A and B are happy, but they are not. At this point, devs can't do what Player C wants because that would make the game different from what Player D wants. Player D is writing how much they love the game, but in Player C's eyes that makes them a blind fanboy. Player C thinks Player D is an irrational hater.

And so, the cycle continues. Its not something unique to ED, i've seen this on every gaming forum where i've been active. I've also been on the development side as well, and had to listen to people telling me i don't listen to them, that i'm incompetent, and only if i listened to certain people the game would be much better.

If only you had listened to Player E (me) all would have been well!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'd rather they spent their time dealing with problems that were important enough to raise tickets for instead of wasting time on countless forum spats and posters who think that Elite's game design is 100% a democracy.

I can get behind this idea.

Loving this thread though, people debating how something has failed even before its even been released, hell, even before any details have been released. Quite scary!

 

[Susanna]

Unlike stocks and shares "past performance is a strong indication of future performance" especially when it comes to games development.

The design and implementation ethos of a dev house utterly guides how well it and bug free new content will be made.

FDev's past record on this is clear and undeniable, but lets watch the fanbois/gals try anyway it'll be funny:

https://media.giphy.com/media/ClbEZl8a82Fry/giphy.gif

Love the clip Rafe! Very... ept.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Unlike stocks and shares "past performance is a strong indication of future performance" especially when it comes to games development.

The design and implementation ethos of a dev house utterly guides how well it and bug free new content will be made.

FDev's past record on this is clear and undeniable, but lets watch the fanbois/gals try anyway it'll be funny:

https://media.giphy.com/media/ClbEZl8a82Fry/giphy.gif

Past performance?

1995 Frontier: First Encounters GameTek MS-DOS, Microsoft Windows, Classic Mac OS, Linux
1995 Darxide Sega Enterprises Sega 32X
1998 V2000 Grolier Interactive Microsoft Windows, PlayStation
2000 Infestation Ubi Soft Microsoft Windows
2003 Darxide EMP Frontier Developments Pocket PC
2003 RollerCoaster Tycoon Infogrames Xbox
2003 Wallace & Gromit in Project Zoo BAM! Entertainment Microsoft Windows, Xbox, PlayStation 2, GameCube
2003 Dog's Life Sony Computer Entertainment PlayStation 2
2003 RollerCoaster Tycoon 2: Wacky Worlds Infogrames Microsoft Windows
2003 RollerCoaster Tycoon 2: Time Twister Atari, Inc. Microsoft Windows
2004 RollerCoaster Tycoon 3 Atari, Inc. Microsoft Windows, OS X, iOS
2005 RollerCoaster Tycoon 3: Soaked! Atari, Inc. Microsoft Windows, OS X
2005 RollerCoaster Tycoon 3: Wild! Atari, Inc. Microsoft Windows, OS X
2005 Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit Konami PlayStation 2, Xbox
2006 Thrillville LucasArts PlayStation 2, Xbox, PlayStation Portable
2007 Thrillville: Off the Rails LucasArts PlayStation 2, Xbox 360, PlayStation Portable, Nintendo DS, Wii, Microsoft Windows
2008 LostWinds Frontier Developments iOS, Wii, Microsoft Windows
2009 LostWinds 2: Winter of the Melodias Frontier Developments iOS, Wii, Microsoft Windows
2010 Kinectimals Microsoft Game Studios Xbox 360, Windows Phone, iOS, Android
2011 Kinectimals: Now with Bears! Microsoft Studios Xbox 360, Windows Phone, iOS, Android
2011 Kinect: Disneyland Adventures Microsoft Studios Xbox 360
2012 Coaster Crazy Frontier Developments iOS
2013 Zoo Tycoon Microsoft Studios Xbox 360, Xbox One
2013 Coaster Crazy Deluxe Frontier Developments Wii U, iOS
2014 Tales from Deep Space Amazon Game Studios Fire OS, iOS
2014 Elite: Dangerous Frontier Developments Microsoft Windows, OS X, PlayStation 4, Xbox One
2015 Screamride Microsoft Studios Xbox 360, Xbox One
2015 Elite Dangerous: Horizons Frontier Developments Microsoft Windows, Xbox One
2016 Elite Dangerous: Arena Frontier Developments Microsoft Windows, Xbox One
2016 Planet Coaster Frontier Developments Microsoft Windows

I think they have done quite well. Some damn good games on that list, of course, including the original Elite and Frontier.

As for ED, well, all depends on your point of view of course. But i think FD are doing ok. Making mistakes (from my perspective), but also doing some good stuff (from my perspective). I like to use 1.3 as an example - Powerplay meh, but the rest of 1.3 was pretty good, limpets are great.

No idea if the headline items for Beyond will be any good, but i'm sure there will be plenty of good stuff in the coming year. Patch on patch, for me the game keeps getting better.

So, based on past performance, i'm good.

If you are not happy with past performance, and you think it won't get better, its time to move on. Otherwise you are just wasting your own time

 

[babelfisch]

Oh, come now. There are details of what they intend to do with Punishment updates, engineering revamp, etc. We have 3 years worth of updates to look back on for clues on the direction they are headed in and the quality and depth or lack of) that they put into each new feature.

I love it how people who are predicting more of what we've gotten so far (lack of depth, sub-standard QA, half-baked features) are viewed as the crazy ones, while the people who continuously think that the next set of updates are somehow gonna be better in quality and depth than all the others are the normal ones.

I have 3 years of half-baked, buggy, shallow, and unbalanced updates backing up my predictions that Beyond is gonna flop. You have pipe dreams, warm fuzzies, and hype from devs who continuously let us down supporting your hope that it will be good.

What you don't understand is that there are people on this forum who like he game. I do understand that you hate it, the question is what you are doing here. You don't like the game, you don't expect that it can get better because you don't like the developer either... Why do you enjoy wasting yours and everyone's time so much?

 

[Brrokk]

What you don't understand is that there are people on this forum who like he game. I do understand that you hate it, the question is what you are doing here. You don't like the game, you don't expect that it can get better because you don't like the developer either... Why do you enjoy wasting yours and everyone's time so much?

I would add that I play ED because I enjoy playing it now, not because of what it might become in the future. New features and improvements will be great, but they don't influence my play today. I consider it very unlikely that huge chunks of the game I enjoy will be taken away, so it's safe to expect that I'll continue having a good time and await whatever changes do come with interest.

 

[B1rdy]

What you don't understand is that there are people on this forum who like he game. I do understand that you hate it, the question is what you are doing here. You don't like the game, you don't expect that it can get better because you don't like the developer either... Why do you enjoy wasting yours and everyone's time so much?

And here you are again, proving Kubicide's post, while at the same time misinterpreting NecoMachina's post. If he would not care for the game, he were long gone. He probably likes the game, despite the letdowns produced by FDev.

 

[babelfisch]

And here you are again, proving Kubicide's post, while at the same time misinterpreting NecoMachina's post. If he would not care for the game, he were long gone. He probably likes the game, despite the letdowns produced by FDev.

I didn't say he doesn't care for the game, I said that he doesn't like it. Please read my post properly.

I don't understand how pointing it out makes me a fanboy and white knight, but please continue with the personal attacks.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I'd rather they spent their time dealing with problems that were important enough to raise tickets for instead of wasting time on countless forum spats and posters who think that Elite's game design is 100% a democracy.

That's what they have the community managers for.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

And here you are again, proving Kubicide's post, while at the same time misinterpreting NecoMachina's post. If he would not care for the game, he were long gone. He probably likes the game, despite the letdowns produced by FDev.

Sometimes people find target they like to argue and be angry about, heck, I would even say that's how Internet trolls are created.

It is form of OCD of sorts - not being able to let go about subject matter.

It of course works vice versa too.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Why funny? You will be laughing? You receive amusement from this kind of thing, do you?

Yes lightspeed I DO find it funny - as do millions of other people. I added that gif to illustrate FDev and Fanbois/gals flailing about, trying to defend the indefensible.

and just for the record Lightspeed - I've been there and done that THREE TIMES - I learned how to rollerskate first on quads (4 wheels) then inlines, and after that ice skates - and broke my foot off for my trouble (broke both the Tibia AND Fibia at the same time so my foot was "free" of the bone structure - not recommended)

(for those curious go to his post quoting mine, and then back to my post)

 

[babelfisch]

Is he still going? What he doesn't get is that I do like the game. Maybe more accurate to say I did like the game, but burned out on it. And just like him I'm disappointed in alot of he updates. Here's the difference between him and I though - I jump into threads where I agree with what's being said and add my two cents. I don't go into every 'positive' thread I see and try to convince people they shouldn't like the game. He jumps into threads where he disagrees and tells everyone they're wrong. He claims you're trying to state your opinion as fact (even when you go out of your way to say it's an OPINION) and then tries to disprove what you're saying.

Discussion

One element of conversation is discussion: sharing opinions on subjects that are thought of during the conversation. In polite society the subject changes before discussion becomes dispute or controversial. For example, if theology is being discussed, no one is insisting a particular view be accepted.

BTW
It's quite funny that you can't stop talking about me even after you put me on your ignore list.

 

[CMDR Asuradice]

Without digging into the core there couldn’t be core gameplay changes.

Agreed. I think it will be interesting to see how far Fdev are willing to go in terms of core changes, there are a few things that will require much more than simple tweaks. Ironically that's what has me hopeful about beyond while it also seems (so long as my interpretation of your post is accurate) to be exactly what leads you to believe it will fail. We'll see, I wouldn't put a bet on it either way but I like to try to be optimistic.

Transration (sic): Frontier is a bad Dungeon Master.

That's not a bad analogy, I feel like the ideas, scope and scale of ED are brilliant but some of the delivery is just meh. Not so meh that it ruins my enjoyment, but meh enough that it detracts from what I enjoy about it.

If beyond can even just reduce this to still meh but not getting in the way of my fun I'll be happy. (I do hope that FD have loftier goals than this however)

Anyway I've used the word meh as both an adjective and a verb in this post which is a clear sign that it's time to stop typing and go drink some coffee.

 

[Skizomeuh]

That's not a bad analogy, I feel like the ideas, scope and scale of ED are brilliant but some of the delivery is just meh. Not so meh that it ruins my enjoyment, but meh enough that it detracts from what I enjoy about it.

I like the analogy, too. Though we can give FDEV attenuating circumstances as this is a quite gigantic roleplaying game, with a colossal amount of players, each with different location, availability, involvement.

 

[CMDR Endincite]

Nobody sane could be personally engaged in any activity which doesn’t benefit him.

Calls Habitat for Humanity.

"Turns out you're all patently insane, call it off & close up shop"

 

[Jex =TE=]

I can get behind this idea.

Loving this thread though, people debating how something has failed even before its even been released, hell, even before any details have been released. Quite scary!

That's because fail has been a part of almost every update to the game. The obvious choice would be that it will be the same as FDev have proven, over and over, they can't deliver. The default position is to assume fail but hope success.