Beyond C&P - Must admit I'm slightly concerned about PvP piracy outcome

[-Denali-]

Well, we're in agreement then. While anarchy permits mindless destruction to go by ignored, murder-hobos will surprise surprise flock there and do their lovely toxic stuff.

Ignoring illegal destruction in anarchy systems makes no sense from a game universe point of view or resultant gameplay point of view...

It really makes no sense on the pilots federation bounty side of things, or the pilots federation insurance cost. They effectively enforce their standards in other systems where they have no authority. If that's the case already, why would security state make a difference to them at all?

I'm not for preventing player killing. I just like consistency. My other problem with the system is that you don't have to outright kill a player to cause their death. Under the new and current system you can shoot a players hull down to 1% and not get a bounty if they die while trying to dock. Notoriety doesn't kick in for assaults, bounties increase very slowly for them, and you can still effectively kill someone. Shooting out the docking computer on large trade ships and leaving them with 5% hull may become a new goal for some.

 

[GluttonyFang]

That being said, crime is never equal in any game. It is pretty much hardcore approach and frankly I am really surprised about some of reactions there.

If you are sceptic about FD not caring about piracy gameplay or smuggling, fine. Time will tell. Sandro have hinted smuggling as part of changes for Beyond but that's still very unclear. It is not like they lack ideas or direction.

But consequences will be there more or less.

Also I assume you guys are just interested in PvP crime.

I've been here a while, the "working as intended 20 ton cargo limit in all instances" statement by one of the devs was the start of a downhill road.

I quit piracy a while back, so I don't have a dog in this, I just feel bad for those still hanging in there.

Your first sentence answers your own questions. Take your time, let it sink in.

No actually, it points out the flawed basis for your argument.

 

[Rampant]

It is fun

I need no other reason.

Clearly, I subscribe to this view 100%. The main driving factor behind any player who engages in piracy is that they find it to be a fun and entertaining use of their leisure time.

Clearly, however, Neil F does not subscribe to the same view as both of us. He wants it to be fun *and* without much in the way of sensible consequence (even though he is foisting negative consequences onto other players deliberately and with forethought, but wishes no negative consequences for him in return, please), and he also wants it to be more profitable in the way of Credits in addition to it being fun and without much in the way of consequence.

If players are drawn to piracy, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of piracy is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?

Cheerz

Mark H

 

[NeilF]

So in another thread Cmdr Eagleboy just hit me with, if you have a fine/bounty, you DO lose access to the Black Market if the station has one?

Is anyone aware of if this is the case?

Because to me that just seems an ill considered unnecessary outcome?

 

[Muetdhiver]

Clearly, I subscribe to this view 100%. The main driving factor behind any player who engages in piracy is that they find it to be a fun and entertaining use of their leisure time.

Clearly, however, Neil F does not subscribe to the same view as both of us. He wants it to be fun *and* without much in the way of sensible consequence (even though he is foisting negative consequences onto other players deliberately and with forethought, but wishes no negative consequences for him in return, please), and he also wants it to be more profitable in the way of Credits in addition to it being fun and without much in the way of consequence.

If players are drawn to piracy, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of piracy is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?

Cheerz

Mark H

You realize that this silly line of thought could be applied to any activity in the game :

"If players are drawn to exploration, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of exploration is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?"
"If players are drawn to bulk trading, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of bulk trading is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?"
"If players are drawn to bounty hunting, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of bounty hunting is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?"

And so on...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It really makes no sense on the pilots federation bounty side of things, or the pilots federation insurance cost. They effectively enforce their standards in other systems where they have no authority. If that's the case already, why would security state make a difference to them at all?

Sure, but a *lot* of the current legal system makes no sense and this is unlikely to change.

If you've got a ship owned by faction A, and wanted by faction B (neither faction Anarchy, all this takes place in a system they're both present in):
- kill it in A's space, then you get a significant rep loss with A, a bounty on your head from A, and need a KWS to see or collect the bounty from B
- kill it in B's space, then you get a trivial rep loss with A, no bounty on your head, and automatically collect the bounty from B
- kill it in Anarchy faction C's space, then you get a trivial rep loss with A, no bounty on your head, and need a KWS to see or collect the bounty from B.
- kill it in Corporate faction D's space, then you get a significant rep loss with A, a bounty on your head from D (but not A), and need a KWS to collect from B.

(this can at the border case literally depend on whether the ship is 10m that way or this way when you shoot it, of course)

Why does the rep loss you get depend on whether the ship was wanted by a different faction and where you kill it? Why are Anarchy factions always happy for you to kill their own ships? Why do you suddenly need a KWS to collect a bounty after the ship passes through an invisible line?

Shooting out the docking computer on large trade ships and leaving them with 5% hull may become a new goal for some.

They could just reboot/repair to fix the DC. They'd need to be left so close to 0% hull that the reboot/repair cycle killed them. Shooting out the *canopy* might be a more reliable way to kill with plausible deniability, though now life support can be synthesised, again, only to the unprepared.
(People will go around shooting out DCs, because they do that now, but probably not because they're specifically trying to avoid a murder bounty)

But hey, at least those people in Anacondas who run over poor defenceless unshielded silent running Sidewinders in stations will finally get the murder penalties they deserve. I predict Crime and What-Do-You-Mean-This-Applies-To-Me-Too will be a great success...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

So in another thread Cmdr Eagleboy just hit me with, if you have a fine/bounty, you DO lose access to the Black Market if the station has one?

Is anyone aware of if this is the case?

Because to me that just seems an ill considered unnecessary outcome?

For fines contacts will be available for you to pay off fines, so I don't think that is the case. As for bounties I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure the contacts tab was not locked out.

 

[NeilF]

So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?

Because it's almost not profitable now?


I can earn more on a super safe cargo/passenger run in 20 minutes than I've probably earned in total all the numerous hours I've ever done PvP Piracy.

Indeed, probably one of the CMDRs I inconveniences for 3 minutes for say 20t of their cargo probably earned more on that one CG in question, than I've earned in total in all the hours I've ever done PvP Piracy.

Meanwhile, while being a Pirate, I've been damaged and seen rebuys, so almost certainly, I'm probably down on CRs.


So, explain once again, "this illogical demand that it be more profitable?"

Because I'm confused. While I don't expect it to earn a fortune through Piracy, is it too much that the game at least provides mechanics to at least offer a sensible reward, without individiuals then throwing their arms up in the air for quite literally no reason at this quite reasonable request?

For fines contacts will be available for you to pay off fines, so I don't think that is the case. As for bounties I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty sure the contacts tab was not locked out.

This has got me very concerned. I indeed saw the Contacts available in the livestream. So I'm wondering if Cmdr Eagleboy has seen a post that specifically lists what is/isn't available, and the Black Market isn't

 

[Jukelo]

I'm finding it ironic that criminals are asking for a "reason" to commit crimes.

As if criminals had to have one to begin with.

Criminals turn to crime because it's the easiest option in the given circumstances. Whether it's because it's the fastest/most profitable or the only option available to them.

In ED, piracy is the complete opposite. You will make more money just trading, and it requires both less skill and knowledge*. A pirate needs to know the same things a trade knows about how trade works (to find good trade routes to pirate and know where to sell the stolen goods for the best profit), and then some more to disable the prey without killing it, in a sub-optimal combat build, quickly before the police shows up.

Also maybe you should keep in mind that we aren't criminals. We are players taking part in one of the advertised activities of the game, and would simply like to see better explicit rewards for the higher time and effort involved in said activity (and it's inane to expecte pirates to just take fun as a reward, as that could be said of everything and I doubt many here would agree to all other activities' rewards being cut down to the level of piracy because fun should be reward enough).

* the exception to that being pirating LTDs, but that is so obviously a bandaid thrown by Frontier to keep pirates quiet that if we rely exclusively on that we might as well rename the whole activity LTD farming like bounty hunting has become RES farming...

 

[Gaiseric]

Finding yourself in an Anarchy system while playing in OPEN SHOULD BE a sphincter clenching realization!

Sounds like FDev has gotten a clue about this aspect of the game that has long gone ignored in the PvP mechanic.

If I have to take a mission that takes me into an Anarchy system, I want to start sweating at the thought of what that might entail!

KUDOS to Frontier for pushing the game in this direction!

LONG overdue in my opinion! [up]

Except that the billions of systems out in the void where there is NOBODY there are all marked as anarchies. These should be redesignated as "unpopulated" or "none" or somesuch if the real anarchies are to become truly dangerous.

 

[Rampant]

*sigh* Well then make us fly to Beagle Point to sell anything an improve it no end?

Oh, please. Jump maybe 2 or 3 or 4 jumps away - that's hardly a faff and not deserving of a poor sarcastic comparison to Beagle Point.

Bearing in mind that CG traders are often jumping 4 or 5 or even 10 jumps (yes, I have often plotted a route 10 or more jumps away for high value CGs, because the extra 2 minutes in hyperspace is *way* more profitable instead of returning with half a cargo hold or waiting longer to re-spawn the station stock).

Man up, follow a mark to their supply system and rob them out of the CG jurisdiction. There. Better (more involved) mechanics and better profits to boot. Or does it all boil down to some pirates wanting to retain the low hanging fruit option but not wanting to associated obvious and logical consequences like you appear to be evangelising for?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

This has got me very concerned. I indeed saw the Contacts available in the livestream. So I'm wondering if Cmdr Eagleboy has seen a post that specifically lists what is/isn't available, and the Black Market isn't

Nope, no official post that I no of. I think Cmdr Eagleboy is just getting a head of himself.

 

[GG7]

Except that the billions of systems out in the void where there is NOBODY there are all marked as anarchies. These should be redesignated as "unpopulated" or "none" or somesuch if the real anarchies are to become truly dangerous.

A totally MOOT point when you look at how the game funnels players into specific areas through missions.

Not all anarchy systems are devoid of activity. Most of the Anarchy systems that are included in missions actually do have a sizeable population, and will soon have the addition of "THE WANTED".

Players will soon learn where things are happening. So I wouldn't worry about the "literal definition" on an Anarchy system. There are plenty of conventional systems that are also in backwater locations that nobody bothers with.

 

[CMDR-AD]

This has got me very concerned. I indeed saw the Contacts available in the livestream. So I'm wondering if Cmdr Eagleboy has seen a post that specifically lists what is/isn't available, and the Black Market isn't

The Black Market is available in the previewed test build:

https://youtu.be/4ocPr8DlBQs?t=27m49s

 

[Lecitron]

Its been said to death, but piracy is impossible because people have the choice to evade it in Solo / PG, and log legally or not. Its impossible to corner someone in ED to the point where they have to comply.

Combat log will be pursuit and eradicated. They told us it.

 

[Noctover]

I mentioned the issues with piracy and the new C&P system a loonnggg time ago. Pirates are the ones who are going to suffer the most. If you pull over a target and he refuses to hand over the cargo you have 2 options:

Leave, he wont hand it over; go. Once you have done this your piracy career is over, you have a name as a bluffer and people no longer have anything to lose by just waking out knowing you will not kill them.

Option 2: Kill them...You have to, if they refuse all opportunities to cooperate you have to kill them or you lose your reputation as above; by doing this you'll be hit by very harsh penalties for an occupation that pays pennies.

I reckon the game will devolve to no words shared limpet firing rather than ransoming, taking away the beauty from the most unique part of the game.

 

[Lecitron]

Clearly, I subscribe to this view 100%. The main driving factor behind any player who engages in piracy is that they find it to be a fun and entertaining use of their leisure time.

Clearly, however, Neil F does not subscribe to the same view as both of us. He wants it to be fun *and* without much in the way of sensible consequence (even though he is foisting negative consequences onto other players deliberately and with forethought, but wishes no negative consequences for him in return, please), and he also wants it to be more profitable in the way of Credits in addition to it being fun and without much in the way of consequence.

If players are drawn to piracy, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of piracy is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?

Cheerz

Mark H

Players like Neil f maybe are the reason because major player population play in solo/group.

Do evil without penalties. Hilarious

 

[NeilF]

Players like Neil f maybe are the reason because major player population play in solo/group.

Do evil without penalties. Hilarious

Huh? Care to elaborate on this? I mean I wouldn't want to seem to be calling you out for spouting nonsense and pointless unfounded generalisations, but...

So, how am I, and players like me, the reason for players moving to solo/group?


Go on, this is going to be a really good read folks. I can feel it. (Or maybe he'll wisely just stop posting now?)

 

[Rampant]

You realize that this silly line of thought could be applied to any activity in the game :

"If players are drawn to exploration, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of exploration is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?"
"If players are drawn to bulk trading, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of bulk trading is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?"
"If players are drawn to bounty hunting, like yourself, for fun, then no other extra rewards are required - the fun of bounty hunting is its own reward. So why must we stomach reading this illogical demand that it be more profitable as well as fun?"

And so on...

You either missed out or flat out ignored the *crucial* part of the puzzle.

An explorer is not foisting negative consequence onto other players with their gameplay.
A bulk trader is not forcing direct negative consequences onto other players by trading.
A bounty hunter (of NPC crims) does not foist negative consequences onto other players as a direct result.

Clearly, your argument is ambiguous in itself, in addition:

A bounty hunter (of player crims) does foist negative consequences directly onto other players, and *that* bounty hunting reward was capped at a lower figure than most would like, because of players cashing in amongst their friends.


The entire crux of the discussion is about *PvP* piracy, which *requires* other players to suffer loss as a direct consequence, so your comparisons that don't even require other players to even be in the game, are at best disingenuous, and at worst a lame and laughable attempt at diversion from the discussion.

Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Anopheles]

Being a Pirate Lord, this may surprise some of you, but I agree with 99% of the crime and punishment so far.

Pirates don't want to be killers because of the golden goose and all that.

I like the idea that we have to go to lawless systems to operate from.

But there are a a couple of things I would change.

Firstly, I didn't like the remark about criminals affecting the bgs and Frontier wanting that to stop, I am willing to accept that was badly worded but I want criminals, as we once famously did, to turn systems into lawless hell holes if we can.

Secondly, revenge should be a thing. So I wouldn't want a 'safe zone' around the prisons. Vigilant justice and all that.

Anopheles
etc, etc, etc,