Beyond 3.0 - C&P and Wing missions

[Mengy]

Please don't think we don't understand there's possibly a lot of work involved, just take away that a load of people think this would be absolutely brilliant and provide a lot if not ALL of the multiplayer functionality we've ever wanted out of the game. No demanding it now going on (that's the other crowd) just saying it's great - please sir, can we have some more

Well said. The Q1 update is right around the corner so there won't be any major changes to what that is already. However, I really hope Frontier considers utilizing this new wing mission mechanic to completely replace some of the older mission templates, maybe later this year, but sometime in the future. There really isn't any need for both kinds if the new templates are designed to generate with ranges to accommodate anything from a solo casual player to a wing of four. Having all of these types of missions shareable and doable in wings would be utterly fantastic. If someone is having problems with a mission then simply ask for help and share the mission. It could almost revolutionize the multiplayer experience in the game honestly.

It strongly reminds me of when the 2.2 beta started and there was a bug in neutron boosts which made it far greater than what Frontier wanted, but the community saw the huge value in keeping them as a feature and we fought, begged, and pleaded with Frontier to keep them in. And today we have 400% neutron boosts and neutron highways as a result, this accidental feature is honestly one of my favorite things added to the game since 1.0. I feel like wing missions completely replacing the normal mission templates would be an even greater positive for the game, and Frontier has another golden egg of an idea but they haven't even realized it yet.

 

[bigity]

Morning all,

I'd like to address two conversations I have seen here:

Firstly the mission choices system will always offer credit heavy packages and then picks randomly from materials, commodities, reputation boosts and influence boosts. These other two reward packages will also come with some credits, essentially the remainder once the commodities, materials etc have been taken into account.

In my mind the commodity option is there for those commanders who feel like they can use the trade system to their advantage. There should be cases where players could sell these reward commodities for more than the system essentially purchased them from. Basically where the player feels they can increase the value of their reward package by taking the time to sell those reward commodities at the right system for the right amount. Of course, this is a procedural system so it's up to the player to work out if it's worth the time and effort. As with everything, the values used in all these calculations will require balancing. HOWEVER, the new system adds a lot of flexibility now as the choice is always in the player's hands.

A quick note on influence boost rewards and wing missions, due to the nature of this reward and the impact on the BGS only the mission owner will be offered this reward type. All players will receive baseline influence increases, but only the owner of the mission can get the increased boosted amount.



In regards to porting all missions over to the wing mission system, I don't want to do that because I want finer control. Someone suggested that low level wing missions spawn with low amounts that are suitable for solo players. However, it would actually need to cover the full range of player skill and then the full range of wing sizes and skill levels. Considering how difficult it is to balance a mission template (rewards, challange, branches etc) for just the skill range of a solo player I decided to split wing missions into their own templates that faces the challange of being balanced for either high level solo players or 2+ wingmates.

Also on a more practical standpoint it's a lot of work to port any mission over to being a wing mission, with a lot of new (and in some cases very difficult) questions needing answers. By making the wing missions new templates we allow ourselves the opportunity to solve these challenges while not impacting any of the normal missions we have in game. That way we add options for our player and don't risk taking away something players might already enjoy.



Ta,
Adam

I don't think anyone is saying it isn't alot of work or a lengthy change - just a worthwhile one.

 

[wstephenson]

How much would we be willing to slip 3.x where x > 0 by, in order to get what sounds like highly integrated extra work for at least 5 teams into a later release though? In the Tetris of project management, this is an oversized, irregular block to make fit. Or, what other part of Beyond would you take it in place of? Not to mention the unannounced paid 2018 content, which could interact with the mission system in all kinds of interesting ways.

Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have this in, Elite's flight model is widely seen as the best in the market at the moment, its galaxy also, graphics and sound are still getting plaudits 4 years after release, so improving its higher level gameplay would make it even more compelling (uh-oh) but Adam's telling us that this isn't a just few hundred lines of Lua to change.

 

[Kaocraft]

If it was that easy I'm sure they would.

"Game Development Is Hard, let's not do it then."

 

[Kaocraft]

How much would we be willing to slip 3.x where x > 0 by, in order to get what sounds like highly integrated extra work for at least 5 teams into a later release though? In the Tetris of project management, this is an oversized, irregular block to make fit. Or, what other part of Beyond would you take it in place of? Not to mention the unannounced paid 2018 content, which could interact with the mission system in all kinds of interesting ways.

Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have this in, Elite's flight model is widely seen as the best in the market at the moment, its galaxy also, graphics and sound are still getting plaudits 4 years after release, so improving its higher level gameplay would make it even more compelling (uh-oh) but Adam's telling us that this isn't a just few hundred lines of Lua to change.

I would gladly accept up to 6 months delay (for the update or just the feature; ideally it would be just the feature but if we had a 6 month eta/guarantee and had to delay the whole darn patch then so be it.)

If it would free up more time, I would also be willing to sacrifice:
• Squadrons
• All the new ships
• GalNet Audio
• everything falling under the heading "and much much more!"
• unannounced paid 2018 content
• all the time it's going to take to "balance" multiple-choice mission rewards
• the entire Engineers re-work

It really is that earth shatteringly important and fundamental to the development of the game.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Hi there,

I'm not a designer, so it's difficult to really speak to design reasons, but the easy answer is wing-enabled missions are balanced for being completed by multiple people whearas normal missions are not.

Most missions, where you could benefit from multiple people being with you, you can already complete with help from your wing (all the ones which require ship/skimmer kills already take into account whether the "killer" was in a wing with you so you don't get kills stolen by wing members) but we don't duplicate out rewards to everyone because the effort required is expected to be that of a single player.

With wing missions, the effort is increased to expect multiple people to be required (though you can attempt them on your own and I expect some of the super awesome pilots out there to surprise us) and so, I beleive, the rewards are generally intended to be greater and we duplicate them out to each player involved.

Thanks,
Dom

Seems like making choices for the players to me by overthinking things.

Missions should have rewards based on their required effort or difficulty.
Then leave it to the players to decide whether they wish to split those rewards with wing mates or not.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Just like we were sure they'd be sorting Power Play. And the USS mechanic. And the lack.of game play in Exploration...

As someone else said, placeholders stay placeholders in this Game. It's time for Fdev to do it fully, and right, the FIRST time. If the leadership can't do that, they aren't leading.

What has any of that got to do with Missions? Missions have gotten better after every update, like chained missions can now be more than two. I am sure that this will go to all missions by the time the next update comes out.

USS's have been massively updated since they came out, but I do think they could be even better still.

As to powerplay, well that need a a lot of work to be made better, I can see them doing that maybe next year. Exploration is being done as is mining. So not too sure what all the bitterness and angst is about.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I would gladly accept up to 6 months delay (for the update or just the feature; ideally it would be just the feature but if we had a 6 month eta/guarantee and had to delay the whole darn patch then so be it.)

If it would free up more time, I would also be willing to sacrifice:
• Squadrons
• All the new ships
• GalNet Audio
• everything falling under the heading "and much much more!"
• unannounced paid 2018 content
• all the time it's going to take to "balance" multiple-choice mission rewards
• the entire Engineers re-work

It really is that earth shatteringly important and fundamental to the development of the game.

Or wouldn't it be better for it to come out know and the rest of them missions gets released in 3 months time. Nope I want this now as I am sick of the beige plague. A few missions that are not done in that style I can live with.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I would gladly accept up to 6 months delay (for the update or just the feature; ideally it would be just the feature but if we had a 6 month eta/guarantee and had to delay the whole darn patch then so be it.)

If it would free up more time, I would also be willing to sacrifice:
• Squadrons
• All the new ships
• GalNet Audio
• everything falling under the heading "and much much more!"
• unannounced paid 2018 content
• all the time it's going to take to "balance" multiple-choice mission rewards
• the entire Engineers re-work

It really is that earth shatteringly important and fundamental to the development of the game.

Sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with you. I love missions, but I do not believe that they should withold updates by up to 6 months just to appease a relative handful of players. Dropping other, non-mission content would be unhelpful as its primarily just the one team that works on missions. Chapters 2 & 3 of Beyond have been listed as the main chapters for mission improvements, so I would not be surprised if we see the Wing Mission Architecture ported to regular missions at this time. Regular missions have already gained at least lne benefit from their work on Wing Missions, which is the overhaul ot mission rewards.

 

[Kaocraft]

Or wouldn't it be better for it to come out know and the rest of them missions gets released in 3 months time. Nope I want this now as I am sick of the beige plague. A few missions that are not done in that style I can live with.

Except they won't do it in three months time. They never said they would expand on it in any way. They might not do it at all. They usually don't. And it's not "a few missions not done in that style." It's "most missions not done in that style".

But you're making a false comparison anyway. Yeah I would gladly accept a 3 month wait instead of a 6 month wait. And yeah I would gladly welcome with open arms this half-baked shell of a feature as currently proposed, if there were an accompanying ETA and guarantee that they would eventually fully transition everything over to that system and finish the work they've started.

But they're not saying that they will do anything else with the system after this patch drops, and whatever you have to say about it is purely your own imagination. You can't dismiss this with "well they'll probably do it later."

 

[Kaocraft]

Chapters 2 & 3 of Beyond have been listed as the main chapters for mission improvements, so I would not be surprised if we see the Wing Mission Architecture ported to regular missions at this time.

I *would* be surprised, given that they've never said they would do anything like that. But hey if Frontier came out and actually said that this was their plan, actually made a *commitment* to see something through and fully implement a feature rather than dumping it; I would be both surprised and also reassured.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Except they won't do it in three months time. They never said they would expand on it in any way. They might not do it at all. They usually don't. And it's not "a few missions not done in that style." It's "most missions not done in that style".

How do you know most missions are not done in that style. Let's wait until beta before jumping to conclusions.

But you're making a false comparison anyway. Yeah I would gladly accept a 3 month wait instead of a 6 month wait. And yeah I would gladly welcome with open arms this half-baked shell of a feature as currently proposed, if there were an accompanying ETA and guarantee that they would eventually fully transition everything over to that system and finish the work they've started.

There is nothing to suggest I am wrong or that you are. We are both speculating.

But they're not saying that they will do anything else with the system after this patch drops, and whatever you have to say about it is purely your own imagination. You can't dismiss this with "well they'll probably do it later."

As the next 2 updates include missions it would be likely that they would be updated. Not guaranteed though, but I see no reason why they wouldnt be.

 

[Nerix]

Seems like making choices for the players to me by overthinking things.

Missions should have rewards based on their required effort or difficulty.
Then leave it to the players to decide whether wish to split those rewards with wing mates or not.

You can nail it with just a few sentences. Let the players decide. You could keep the mission wing marker shown in the stream, to mark missions specifically designed for wings. But let us do all missions in wings.

 

[Ian Skippy]

edit: You seem to think I believe a delay is justified to remove commodity rewards. I don't think that. If anything, I was suggesting dumping commodity rewards because, by removing that variable from the mission balance, it would *save* dev time. What I *am* in favor of is a delay to ensure that Wing missions aren't just a bolted-on side project.

We already waited three years. Nobody wanted to wait, but the waiting happened anyway. And people have never not complained about the lack of wing missions, from day 1 of 1.2's release.

If they delay the 3.0 release, or the wing mission feature, by 6 months ( a number I just made up but let's go with it) in order to do the necessary work of fully and properly integrating a new feature into the game; then they get called lazy devs for six more months. If they rush a release and deliver another half-baked non-feature which is walled off from connecting with the rest of the game, they get called lazy devs forever.

We don't need anymore PowerPlays or CQCs or Multicrew style updates, where it's a bolted on "bonus" feature not fully implemented into the core functionality of the game, and then abandoned forever. Beyond was supposed to be about making improvements to the core game. The wing missions as described are not part of the core game. They are an add-on. What I want, and what people have wanted since forever, is not a NEW THING, but instead for two OLD systems (wings and the mission system) to be integrated. This is not integration this is a side-project.

Why is there a megathread called "Frontier Can't Deliver"? It's not because of delays. It's because whenever Frontier gets around to actually delivering an update, they don't really deliver a full implementation of the concept they are proposing. This is a chance to break that cycle and it's also the most important change they could make to the game, if they really are serious about supporting multiplayer.

Or you can simply not insult people by calling them lazy, just because you dont get all the free content in your space-game update that you can theorycraft.

Its an option, you know.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Or you can simply not insult people by calling them lazy, just because you dont get all the free content in your space-game update that you can theorycraft.

Its an option, you know.

Yes, Kaocraft is a horribly rude person, & is one post away from me putting him on my ignore list.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

At the 57 minute & 1 hour, 1 minute part of the Live-stream, Sandro & Adam both indicate that Wing Mission features will be phased in to regular missions during the Beyond Season, the fact that Kaocraft point blank refuses to accept this speaks more to the kind of person he is, than the kind of people the Developers are....IMHO.

 

[Nerix]

At the 57 minute & 1 hour, 1 minute part of the Live-stream, Sandro & Adam both indicate that Wing Mission features will be phased in to regular missions during the Beyond Season, the fact that Kaocraft point blank refuses to accept this speaks more to the kind of person he is, than the kind of people the Developers are....IMHO.

Good find, missed that. Here is the sequence where it's stated: https://youtu.be/4ocPr8DlBQs?t=57m10s

Adam says not for 3.0. That means not until next year? Not sure if 3.0 is the complete Beyond Package or just the first bit in Q1.

Though it's not specifically stated, that this opens SP missions for wings. It's only about the implementation of a progress bar for SP missions. But it's a first step to merge the mission types.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Good find, missed that. Here is the sequence where it's stated: https://youtu.be/4ocPr8DlBQs?t=57m10s

Adam says not for 3.0. That means not until next year? Not sure if 3.0 is the complete Beyond Package or just the first bit in Q1.

Though it's not specifically stated, that this opens SP missions for wings. It's only about the implementation of a progress bar for SP missions. But it's a first step to merge the mission types.

I would think that 3.0 is the Q1 update, 3.2 for Q2, etc etc.

 

[wstephenson]

Having had a little think, 'balancing' a wing mission is a real rabbit hole. It's easy to think of it as just a matter of adding factors to make payout = cargo*distance*rank work, but setting the level and number of oppenents for 'Hostile ships may be sent against you' is pretty hairy.

If you as a designer always send a wing of pirates of equivalent strength to all the wing members vs the first wing member, and the wing members happen not to be travelling together, then that player will get boiled, and that mission will get predictable because it's only completable in one playstyle. So the 'enemy ships' mission module has to be smart enough to react to how the mission is being played, given the overall aim of the opponents is to prevent the mission being completed, not just to kill a player.

 

[AbsinthSvK]

Having had a little think, 'balancing' a wing mission is a real rabbit hole. It's easy to think of it as just a matter of adding factors to make payout = cargo*distance*rank work, but setting the level and number of oppenents for 'Hostile ships may be sent against you' is pretty hairy.

If you as a designer always send a wing of pirates of equivalent strength to all the wing members vs the first wing member, and the wing members happen not to be travelling together, then that player will get boiled, and that mission will get predictable because it's only completable in one playstyle. So the 'enemy ships' mission module has to be smart enough to react to how the mission is being played, given the overall aim of the opponents is to prevent the mission being completed, not just to kill a player.

well, i expect tons of exploits. And of course enemies scaling is nothing compared to ours engineered ships. Probably we can make solo all "wings" missions.