Wrong! Bzzzzt! Try playing the game sometime and try again. You can sell *anything* on the black market. If you pirate a T9 full of nothing but biowaste canisters, you can steal that poop and sell it on the black market. Which means that OP's idea is a good, just, righteous, and correct idea. You *should* be able to sell regular commodities (at a substantial loss) on the black market. Honestly, you should be *able* to do it NOW, whether you're wanted or not. It's just that with the game functioning the way it currently does; it would be a waste of time and hence there was no need for it.
[Suggestion] Beyond - If you do not have access to station facilities, sell LEGAL cargo on the Black Market
- Thread starter NeilF
- Start date
Wrong! Bzzzzt! Try playing the game sometime and try again. You can sell *anything* on the black market. If you pirate a T9 full of nothing but biowaste canisters, you can steal that poop and sell it on the black market. Which means that OP's idea is a good, just, righteous, and correct idea. You *should* be able to sell regular commodities (at a substantial loss) on the black market. Honestly, you should be *able* to do it NOW, whether you're wanted or not. It's just that with the game functioning the way it currently does; it would be a waste of time and hence there was no need for it.
One rationale for keeping it inaccessible during lockdown is that the station is probably teeming with law enforcement patrols and all travel/access between different parts of the station is shut down (possibly literally in many cases). It might simply not be possible to get loading/unloading equipment to your ship AT ALL.
We're talking about moving tonnage, here. Most likely the black market exchanges all take place at the same locations and use the same equipment and infrastructure as the legit market; just with corrupt/bribed inspectors/workers/drivers/etc eventually handing off the goods to some shadowy 3rd party somewhere out of sight.
Maybe stop thinking of it in terms of people trying to weasel their way out of some deserved punishment, and look at it as a question of what kinds of play systems lead to interesting decisions, interesting challenges, and more varied play experiences.
The central conceit of being locked out of station services is the idea of anonymous protocols. That's an interesting concept and adds to the mystique of the world of Elite; let's have the ramifications of Anonymous Protocols make sense.
I think it probably makes sense sense to be able to access the black market whilst Anonymous. I also think it probably makes sense to be able to sell *anything* on the Black Market, with the caveat that the sale prices should be lower and potentially much more volatile.
It's what people want, Neil.
Commanders don't care about consequence; only that bad people are punished. Don't expect blanket punishment to be consistent or logical. It isn't. Nobody really cares. So Frontier hasn't bothered.
This was raised as a concern back when Player Bounties were added (that have done exactly zero to curb behaviour). You assume correctly; if you are a bad person, that's it. Context doesn't matter. Game doesn't care how or why. Ergo whether you have all illicit cargo, or some illicit and some legal, being a bad person takes precedence.
Again; game doesn't care about motive, reason, or whether you have some legitimate business as well as monkey. You have to resolve the crime bit first, before you do anything else. Arguably, if you're going to ring-fence people, chopping off all access makes sense. So sure, why not.
Folks are just going to CL to avoid this anyway, to be fair.
Last edited:
If it were even theoretically possible for Frontier to program Crime and Punishment in such a way that everyone with a PvP bounty would be magically impelled to keep spilling their coffee on their lap; the braying, bleating, yawping hordes on this Forum would demand it be so. They don't want a game they want vengeance.
Sandy has actually done some good work here, despite the choices made. Genuinely; he's actually thought about a) how to action and b) the consequences of. This stands in stark contrast to the belief that if you just punish people "enough" they will stop or go away. I am all for risks, consequences and the concepts that the game should be able to tolerate a wide range of engagement, and hold certain behaviours to account.
But there is huge potential for a lot of collateral damage if the hammer is swift and ignorant. He's thought about that. I'm less convinced those demanding endless sanction, have. At all.
There was a lot of demanding of retribution and sanction for station ramming. We got a speed limit, which has gone on to destroy endless "innocent" people because they refuse to obey laws they demand others do.
Folks applying some critical thinking about what's happening, might be refreshing. Because I foresee a lot of 'innocent' people being clobbered by this. For much the same reason.
Last edited:
Stop being so needlessly dramatic - I simply want a sensible bit of gameplay to be implemented?
So, let's run through an example, and you give me some logic rather than emotion(s)?
I have in my cargo hold:-
- Gold 1t
- Gold 1t [stolen]
- Slaves 1t [illegal]
I arrive at a station where I havea fine/bounty, so facilities are locked down. I have access to somethings though, including the black market which isn't suprising as it's a criminal network (note: This is the case it seems).
So I contact the Black Market and:-
- 1t of stolen Gold? No problem sir, we'll take that off your hands! We'll obviously have to go through significant steps to get rid of it, but here's your money.
- 1t of illegal Slaves? No problem sir, we'll take that off your hands! We'll obviously have to go through significant steps to get rid of it, but here's your money.
- 1t of legal, not-stolen Gold? Arrghh! NO! We can't take that! Of course it's easy to get rid of and we'll still offer you a reduced price! It's not like we're trying to make money!
How does that make sense? What is being achieved other that needless faff and frustration by not allowing that 1t of legal/not-stolen gold to be sold on the Black Market?
Understood... Two example scenarios, the latter being a significant one IMHO...
Passenger Mission
You have two passenger missions and arrive at your destination. You have a bounty there you naughty boy, so facilities are disabled.
However, you can complete your passenger missions at least. So you complete the first passenger mission and they give you 4t of cargo. This fills up your cargo space. As the second passenger missions wants to give you some cargo too as payment you now cannot complete it.
Upshot, you have to jettison the cargo. If you'd had the same cargo as stolen you'd have been able to sell it (Black Market). If you'd even had illegal cargo, same again. But you cannot sell the legal cargo.
If the Black Market simply also accepted legal/non-stolen cargo (when you cannot access the Commodity Market - a single IF condition most likely), you could then at least sell the 4t of cargo from the 1st mission (no doubt at a bit of a loss). But surely this is less needlessly spiteful/pointless as having to jettison it.
Note: This sort of scenario would no doubt be repeated in numerous guises. Where you'd ultimately have to throw legal cargo away, which had instead been stolen or illegal, you'd have been abe to sell it.
PvP Piracy at CG
CGs are in reality just about the only go-to mechanics PvP Pirates have available to them to orchestrate gameplay. ps: Please don't confuse these individuals witl murder-hobos.
So in this scenario the CMDR will steal cargo from a trader, and then deliver the cargo to the station at least to then also take part in the CG, no doubt to very very very lesser degree. But at least they will get a small bonus for taking part in the CG (no doubt from the lowest tier).
So if the pirate uses a limpet they get stolen cargo and can hand it in (on the Black Market). Fine!
And if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, who then simply jettison some cargo, again fine! It's stolen cargo. (Why would the Trader do this? Because they can probably give the Pirate less cargo in this fashion than messy limpets would otherwise chuck out of their cargo hatch).
However, if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, makes the mistake of abandoning the cargo, bizarely the pirate is now stuffed! They cannot hand it in! What's gained by this?
Ultimately, for a very minor change to the Black Market screen (to include legal/non-stolen) cargo if you have a fine/bounty, some needless rough edges are take out of the gameplay, and bit of sensible gameplay is put in place.
Last edited:
Because it will force him to change his gameplay flow he thinks is awesome and justified.
It is like no brainer
Is it as much of a no brainer as you (gleefully?) declaring the Black Market isn't available if station facilities are not available, clearly not knowing what you're talking about.
Odd behaviour TBH!
And yet more odd behaviour!
No attempt to discuss the matter... Just drama and petty antics/jibes.
Please just try and discuss the matter with some reasoning rather than continued pointless/unfounded rhetoric? You're making some huge dramatic mountain out of a tiny subtle suggestion. Why?
Ultimately, if you have a problem with this little suggestion, explain (politely) what it is? Note: To many folks, this sort of approach is what's known as, "Behaving like an adult." Maybe you're just not familiar with the concept?
Last edited:
What "they" want doesn't matter. Drop this meta war mentality for a minute and put yourself into dev shoes here. You are like two gangs and Sandro is like sheriff. No matter what he will do you will all moan and cry and try to stretch borders. And that's fine, no one forces to change anyone who they are.
Things will change. No one is happy about things changing, we are animals of comfort. Also issues raised about lack of detailed crime gameplay are justified, so we better give Sandro good, juicy feedback so he can go back at leadership and show there's demand and they can do some good work for piracy and smuggling during Beyond.
This forum meta mud sliding contest is really boring.
Im sorry Eagleboy, but you are not making sense. I am no pirate but what NielF says is correct. Why would a black market dealer care if the items are stolen, illegal or not. Of course the pirate still gets punished as s/he has to sell it for a reduced price, therefore less profit for the pirate then what he would get before.
Perfectly reasonable I think. I really do not understand why you are so against it.
He wants them to be sold at station with anonymous access - aka no changes for him
As for any station with full access - of course.
He wants them to be sold at station with anonymous access - aka no changes for him
As for any station with full access - of course.
And what is the issue with that. A pirate can already sell stolen and illegal items with anonymous access, why not clean goods at the blackmarket at a cut price?. What is the issue with that. You are not making any sense? I asked you a question and you avoid it.
Blackmarket fences at a CONSIDERABLY reduced price I'd suggest.
If we're applying logic to this...
Surely, if I'm a known criminal, 'wanted' in that system, why are they giving me permission to dock in the first place?
I shouldn't even be able to approach the station, hence this thread is moot.
'Request DENIED, Cmdr. SecUnits have been notified of your arrival. Have a nice, short day...'
Smuggling can only occur when you're not actually wanted (yet), but have illegal/stolen goods on board. Subsequently getting scanned tags you as 'wanted'. Station becomes no go zone to you.
Go somewhere you're not a known felon.
Just a thought,
/Zin
Surely, if I'm a known criminal, 'wanted' in that system, why are they giving me permission to dock in the first place?
I shouldn't even be able to approach the station, hence this thread is moot.
'Request DENIED, Cmdr. SecUnits have been notified of your arrival. Have a nice, short day...'
Smuggling can only occur when you're not actually wanted (yet), but have illegal/stolen goods on board. Subsequently getting scanned tags you as 'wanted'. Station becomes no go zone to you.
Go somewhere you're not a known felon.
Just a thought,
/Zin
Errr what?
I am talking about new anonymous protocols when having crime in jurisdiction. You clearly can't sell anything there.
Or I misunderstood what you disagree about?
Genuinely confused.
Because that only happens if you get scanned. If you get scanned and flagged up as wanted you can't dock, but if you are not scanned you can dock as usual and access anonymous protocals.
If you avoid scan, you can. You access with anonymous protocols.