[Suggestion] Beyond - If you do not have access to station facilities, sell LEGAL cargo on the Black Market

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

If you are wanted, then trying to dock would be pointless then if you can't access anything. It doesn't make any sense. You can't pay a bounty off at the security contact either.

I know it is pointless, yet access - if you can call it - is available if you try to sneak in without scan (If I have understood Sandro quotes).

Might be FD want to leave doors open for something interesting down the road.

Anyway, as I figured out, we don't disagree about subject matter Phew.

As for black market - hoping Sandro, Adam and Dom reads these threads and add notes for potential smuggling/piracy makeover. Really want that to happen during Beyond. Please. Would be awesome.

 

[NeilF]

Aside from my "needlessly dramatic" (lol) reply, here's my logic: I think the functions of the Black Market should just stay as is - if someone can't trade legal cargo at a station because the station itself is locked down or they are a criminal, then tough to be honest, otherwise it'll open a whole new can of worms that could be exploited (such as exploiting the Background Simulation where other tasks should be done instead).

The rules should stay simple so everyone knows what side of the fence they are on.

OK... Let's follow that through.

Can of worms: Can you explain your can of worms such as exploiting the BGS? ie: I arrive at a station with a fine/bounty and can sell 10t of stolen Gold, but not legal Gold? And if I could then sell that legal Gold (for less) on the Black Market? Issue?

Logically: What sense does it make that the Black Market wouldn't take legal cargo at a reduced price, when they can then make even more money on it?

Gameplay: If there is no can of worms. And logically it makes sense. Then why not smooth out the gameplay so as not to frustrate people needlessly? Especially if we're talking about a minor little tidy up/change?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I think they would, realistically speaking? If you dump hundreds of tons of cabbages into a consumer market, even if you do so illegally, there would be less demand for cabbages in the legit market. More damaging arguably .. why buy unwashed cabbages unless they're cheap and if they're cheap, why not buy extra cabbages and fewer carrots?

Well technically they are not illegal cabbages so should just effect the BGS as if they where sold on the commodites markets. It would be no different to what we have now.

But was that on a wanted or on a fine status, or both times? Maybe we're just not fully clear on that yet? I know I'm not! 7 days to go.

They didn't show us. When Ed was going to the station as wanted, he got scanned so docking permission was rescinded. The second time was for a fine and was able to dock.

But to be honest if you are wanted or just have a fine, I really can't see why you shouldn't be able to deal with the black market contact. They don't care who you are, they deal with stolen/illegal goods all the time, why should they care if you are wanted or not.

 

[Winterwalker]

OK... Let's follow that through.

Can of worms: Can you explain your can of worms such as exploiting the BGS? ie: I arrive at a station with a fine/bounty and can sell 10t of stolen Gold, but not legal Gold?

Logically: What sense does it make that the Black Market wouldn't take legal cargo at a reduced price, when they can then make even more money on it?

Gameplay: If there is no can of worms. And logically it makes sense. Then why not smooth out the gameplay so as not to frustrate people needlessly?

The most obvious difference would be sheer volume. 600 tons of T9, illegal cargo is not that easy to come by .. that's a heck of a lot of scooping but under your proposal you can just go to a system where you're clean, so it's easy to dump on blackmarket.

That might not be a terrible terrible thing but I think it would be more weird to have no effective gameplay distinction, just selling on one market or the other. That's certainly not particularly deep as far as gameplay goes so would be with Eagleboy, there are probably more interesting ways to make a wanted or fine status interesting than clicking two buttons instead of one?

 

[Winterwalker]

But to be honest if you are wanted or just have a fine, I really can't see why you shouldn't be able to deal with the black market contact. They don't care who you are, they deal with stolen/illegal goods all the time, why should they care if you are wanted or not.

Agreed. I meant more with mission/passenger boards that may/may not be accessible under fine/wanted.

My bad, am off topic.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The most obvious difference would be sheer volume. 600 tons of T9, illegal cargo is not that easy to come by .. that's a heck of a lot of scooping but under your proposal you can just go to a system where you're clean, so it's easy to dump on blackmarket.

Not is said pirate is participating in a CG and is wanted at the system. Being able to sell clean goods and illegal/stolen goods on the black market makes sense as the pirate will not have access to the commodities market.

If we exclude CG's then the pirate can just go to a another system where there is no bounty on them, and sell the clean goods at the commodites market at full price. The issue only really comes up at CG's.

 

[Winterwalker]

Not is said pirate is participating in a CG and is wanted at the system. Being able to sell clean goods and illegal/stolen goods on the black market makes sense as the pirate will not have access to the commodities market.

If we exclude CG's then the pirate can just go to a another system where there is no bounty on them, and sell the clean goods at the commodites market at full price. The issue only really comes up at CG's.

Fair enough but blackmarket supply / demand still couldn't be independent of the main market.

I think if Frontier do this - and I'm not saying they shouldn't / couldn't - then probably on it's own it looks a bit lame. Fine if you add a crusty contact with an eye patch who says ha-harr a lot but perception wise, it's another spreadsheet and if we can agree that prices for legal goods would be lower in a black/fence market .. it doesn't add much of an incentive to be a law breaker either?

QoL - down the line - yes, but not a very deep and meaningful development of blackmarket mechanics on it's own, I'd suggest. Probably best left until they can add something deeper too.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

I'm confused. As I understand it you'll be able to go to any station you're not Wanted at, including any Anarchy controlled station, and sell your goods there. Why do you need to sell them at stations where you're Wanted?

Understood... Two example scenarios, the latter being a significant one IMHO...

PvP Piracy at CG
CGs are in reality just about the only go-to mechanics PvP Pirates have available to them to orchestrate gameplay. ps: Please don't confuse these individuals witl murder-hobos.

So in this scenario the CMDR will steal cargo from a trader, and then deliver the cargo to the station at least to then also take part in the CG, no doubt to very very very lesser degree. But at least they will get a small bonus for taking part in the CG (no doubt from the lowest tier).

So if the pirate uses a limpet they get stolen cargo and can hand it in (on the Black Market). Fine!

And if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, who then simply jettison some cargo, again fine! It's stolen cargo. (Why would the Trader do this? Because they can probably give the Pirate less cargo in this fashion than messy limpets would otherwise chuck out of their cargo hatch).

However, if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, makes the mistake of abandoning the cargo, bizarely the pirate is now stuffed! They cannot hand it in! What's gained by this?



Ultimately, for a very minor change to the Black Market screen (to include legal/non-stolen) cargo if you have a fine/bounty, some needless rough edges are take out of the gameplay, and bit of sensible gameplay is put in place.

I think that is asking way to much and makes no sense.

So you are suggesting that after you just robbed a trader in a let's say med to high security system, and are now wanted in that system, you want to dock at the station where they have a warrant for you know, anonymously, sell the robbed stuff and have it count to the CG, but not anonymously, but towards your commander?

That literally makes no sense to me.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Fair enough but blackmarket supply / demand still couldn't be independent of the main market.

I think if Frontier do this - and I'm not saying they shouldn't / couldn't - then probably on it's own it looks a bit lame. Fine if you add a crusty contact with an eye patch who says ha-harr a lot but perception wise, it's another spreadsheet and if we can agree that prices for legal goods would be lower in a black/fence market .. it doesn't add much of an incentive to be a law breaker?

QoL - down the line - yes, but not a very deep and meaningful development of blackmarket mechanics on it's own, I'd suggest. Probably best left until they can add something deeper too imo.

My view is that any stolen/clean goods should have a big reduction in price as they are doing you a favour, fencing of stolen goods or getting rid of your clean goods which you can't do normally. Illegal goods though is different. There are usually high demand for those, so the prices should be higher.

Sometime down the line I would prefer a better system. A fence to get rid of stolen/clean goods with missions to aquire specific objects from specific ships. A black market to get rid of any illegal good (drugs, weapons, whatever is banned in system) and get missions to smuggle stuff in/out of the station including passanger missions.

I think that is asking way to much and makes no sense.

So you are suggesting that after you just robbed a trader in a let's say med to high security system, and are now wanted in that system, you want to dock at the station where they have a warrant for you know, anonymously, sell the robbed stuff and have it count to the CG, but not anonymously, but towards your commander?

That literally makes no sense to me.

It is how it works now and it would be no different. I do find it odd myself though.

 

[NeilF]

The most obvious difference would be sheer volume. 600 tons of T9, illegal cargo is not that easy to come by .. that's a heck of a lot of scooping but under your proposal you can just go to a system where you're clean, so it's easy to dump on blackmarket.

That might not be a terrible terrible thing but I think it would be more weird to have no effective gameplay distinction, just selling on one market or the other. That's certainly not particularly deep as far as gameplay goes so would be with Eagleboy, there are probably more interesting ways to make a wanted or fine status interesting than clicking two buttons instead of one?

OK consider these two scenarios?

Mr Super Legal
I'm carry 600t of Gold. I arrive at the station. Sell them on the Commodity Market for £1000CR per ton.

Mr Super Unlegal
I'm carry 600t of Gold. I arrive at the station to find I don't actually have access to the Commoditiy Market (I picked up a bounty annoyingly on the way)... Doh!

I sell them on the Black Market for £700CR per ton.




Now what is possibly being broken by this second scenario? We're not talking about a mechanic to make more money. We're simply talking about preventing a frustrating situation of not being able to get rid of legal cargo (should I wish to) while you can bizarely get rid of illegal and stolen cargo.

Again, I know it sounds minor, and that's because technically it is (literally a few IFs I suspect), but I think it's worth it to just smooth off the rough edges that some CMDRs will experience due to this new denial of facilities mechanic.


And then there's the potential - as I put in the OP - of getting cargo given to as part of a mission. If this fills your cargo space up, and you have other missions trying to give you cargo too, you're stuck. You'll have to literally throw the stuff away for no logical reason. If you could at least sell it to the Black Market is would be less frustrating.

 

[Red Fox Four]

I'd like to suggest a potential small change to Beyond's mechanics - If you have legal (non-stolen) cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market.

What is the point of denying station services if someone criminal can simply avoid it by selling to black market?

Want to sell and have no station services available in the jurisdiction? Fly to Anarchy system to sell.

Simplez.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

What is the point of denying station services if someone criminal can simply avoid it by selling to black market?

Want to sell and have no station services available in the jurisdiction? Fly to Anarchy system to sell.

Simplez.

You can still sell stolen and illegal cargo on the black market if you have a fine or bounty in the system. Why not legal cargo at reduced prices? Why would the black marketeer care if it is legal or not?

 

[Darkfyre99]

I'd like to suggest a potential small change to Beyond's mechanics - If you have legal (non-stolen) cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market.


If I've understood, if you have a fine/bounty and arrive at a station, you can find yourself unable to use many of its facilities, eg: The Commodity Market.

First and foremost, I'd hope that you can still sell stolen & illegal goods (I originally only put "illegal" but meant "stolen" as well) on the Black Market (if there is one). If this facility is also removed, that would be a mistake IMHO.

If you have any legal good, and cannot access the Commodity Market, you should simply then be able to sell them on the Black Market too (obviously at the same/lower price than the Commodity Market).


This is a small change in my mind, but means if you have legal cargo on board, but don't have access to the Commodity Market, you can still sell it if there's a Black Market. eg: You are a pirate and have legal cargo. Or you hand in a mission and are given commodities.

This seems simple, logical and easy to add IMHO.



Scale Of The Change?
Could be as simple as when your list of cargo for the black market is shown... Currently:-

IF (cargo.stolen = "YES" OR cargo.state= "ILLEGAL") show on black market​

After my proposal:-

IF (cargo.stolen = "YES" OR cargo.state = "ILLEGAL" OR station.facilities = "OFF") show on Black Market​

^ A very simple logic change. So could be as simple as something like that, maybe with a secondary condition around its price if legal. Maybe with a bit of update on the UI to show its state (not-stolen, not-illegal) etc.

Spoiler

Two example scenarios I made later in the thread to try and set the scene?

Passenger Mission
You have two passenger missions and arrive at your destination. You have a bounty there you naughty boy, so facilities are disabled.

However, you can complete your passenger missions at least. So you complete the first passenger mission and they give you 4t of cargo. This fills up your cargo space. As the second passenger missions wants to give you some cargo too as payment you now cannot complete it.

Upshot, you have to jettison the cargo. If you'd had the same cargo as stolen you'd have been able to sell it (Black Market). If you'd even had illegal cargo, same again. But you cannot sell the legal cargo.

If the Black Market simply also accepted legal/non-stolen cargo (when you cannot access the Commodity Market - a single IF condition most likely), you could then at least sell the 4t of cargo from the 1st mission (no doubt at a bit of a loss). But surely this is less needlessly spiteful/pointless as having to jettison it.

Note: This sort of scenario would no doubt be repeated in numerous guises. Where you'd ultimately have to throw legal cargo away, which had instead been stolen or illegal, you'd have been abe to sell it.

PvP Piracy at CG
CGs are in reality just about the only go-to mechanics PvP Pirates have available to them to orchestrate gameplay. ps: Please don't confuse these individuals witl murder-hobos.

So in this scenario the CMDR will steal cargo from a trader, and then deliver the cargo to the station at least to then also take part in the CG, no doubt to very very very lesser degree. But at least they will get a small bonus for taking part in the CG (no doubt from the lowest tier).

So if the pirate uses a limpet they get stolen cargo and can hand it in (on the Black Market). Fine!

And if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, who then simply jettison some cargo, again fine! It's stolen cargo. (Why would the Trader do this? Because they can probably give the Pirate less cargo in this fashion than messy limpets would otherwise chuck out of their cargo hatch).

However, if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, makes the mistake of abandoning the cargo, bizarely the pirate is now stuffed! They cannot hand it in! What's gained by this?



Ultimately, for a very minor change to the Black Market screen (to include legal/non-stolen) cargo if you have a fine/bounty, some needless rough edges are take out of the gameplay, and bit of sensible gameplay is put in place.

The whole idea of a black market is that it deals with illegal goods. Whether those goods are illegal, goods legal to trade but bypassed customs to avoid taxes/duties (something that doesn't exist in Elite: Dangerous ), or simply stolen, profits are made by buying from the desperate, and then either selling to the same, or "cleaning" them and then ​selling them at below legal prices.

If you're wanted in a system, you appear to be desperate. Because you appear to be desperate, the black market is going to buy your goods for well below what you paid for them in the first place.

You command a space ship capable of FTL travel. There is no reason why you should be that desperate, when you can sell those legal goods for a profit at a station that is five minutes away. If you are that desperate, then something has gone very, very wrong.

So I approve of your suggestion, and, if it's implemented, I look forward to all the "Why can't I sell legal goods for a profit on the black market?" posts.

edit:

Of course, given the changes to Crime and Punishment, any good criminal Commander would have a clean ship parked in a system where they're not wanted, perhaps a nearby Anarchy system. After all, its the ship that is wanted in the new C&P system, not the Commander.

 

[Red Fox Four]

You can still sell stolen and illegal cargo on the black market if you have a fine or bounty in the system. Why not legal cargo at reduced prices? Why would the black marketeer care if it is legal or not?

Because black marketeer is not an actual person but a game feature.

And criminals belong in Anarchy.

 

[NeilF]

I think that is asking way to much and makes no sense.

So you are suggesting that after you just robbed a trader in a let's say med to high security system, and are now wanted in that system, you want to dock at the station where they have a warrant for you know, anonymously, sell the robbed stuff and have it count to the CG, but not anonymously, but towards your commander?

That literally makes no sense to me.

Let's go through your issue(s)?


First of all this notion of a pirate participating in CG where he's robbing the traders and then contributing to the CG is nothing new. Indeed, it's about the only mechanic in the game where a PvP pirate can make at least a tiny amount of income. And this tiny amount of income is not the quantity of cargo he can steal and sell. But instead the fact he'll at least be in the lower tier of the CG bonus. We're talking about trivial amount of income of course!

So follow me on this? With Beyond Chapter one, I will be able to interdict a trader headed for a CG and do the follow:-

1. Use a limpet and extract some cargo. I have 10t of cargo which is now "stolen".
2. Chat to the CMDR, and agree for them to simply give me 10t of cargo. They do this via Jettison so I have 10t of cargo which is now "stolen".
3. Chat to the CMDR, and agree for them to simply give me 10t of cargo. They do this via Abandon so I have 10t of cargo which is not "stolen" (it's completely legal etc)

This is all well and good... So I now risk going into the station (I have a bounty) so under the new mechanics I have limited facilities as I have to logon annonymously. Fine!

With scenario (1) & (2) above I do exactly what I used to do before Beyond Chapter 1, and go to the Black Market and sell the 10t of stolen cargo. I don't make much money, but at least I'm now in the lower rung of the CG.

HOWEVER, what is new, is that with scenario (3), I can no longer access the Commodity Market to sell my perfectly legal 10t of cargo. Fine I guess... But the needless annoyance is, I can't simply go to the Black Market and sell it there (at a lower price).


So once again, we're not talking about any change of gameplay at all here. Simply the premise to keep a few scenarios from being an unnecessary annoyance of simply saying, if you can't access the Commodity Market (because of a fine/bounty) then at least allow legal goods to be sold to the Black Market (if there is one), obviously at a loss. But that's better and more logical that having to throw them away. Are we trying to create leveled reasoned gameplay, or just introduce "spiteful" gotchas?


And as I listed in the OP (in a SPOILER tag) there's similar annoying scenarios that can be reached via missions and the like.

AGAIN, this is not a huge issue. But for the scope of the change (see the OP) I think it would be a nice thing and a logical thing to implement.



Does that make sense?

 

[NeilF]

The whole idea of a black market is that it deals with illegal goods. Whether those goods are illegal, goods legal to trade but bypassed customs to avoid taxes/duties (something that doesn't exist in Elite: Dangerous ), or simply stolen, profits are made by buying from the desperate, and then either selling to the same, or "cleaning" them and then ​selling them at below legal prices.

If you're wanted in a system, you appear to be desperate. Because you appear to be desperate, the black market is going to buy your goods for well below what you paid for them in the first place.

You command a space ship capable of FTL travel. There is no reason why you should be that desperate, when you can sell those legal goods for a profit at a station that is five minutes away. If you are that desperate, then something has gone very, very wrong.

So I approve of your suggestion, and, if it's implemented, I look forward to all the "Why can't I sell legal goods for a profit on the black market?" posts.

edit:

Of course, given the changes to Crime and Punishment, any good criminal Commander would have a clean ship parked in a system where they're not wanted, perhaps a nearby Anarchy system. After all, its the ship that is wanted in the new C&P system, not the Commander.

Thanks for agreeing...

Some answers to why you wouldn't go to another system and sell your legal goods legally instead of on a Black Market, or take the time/effort to move to a clean ship are in the post above #95... (& in the SPOILER tag in the OP)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Because black marketeer is not an actual person but a game feature.

And criminals belong in Anarchy.

Everything in the game is a game feature, but we make believe that we are dealing with real people. Factions are just game features too and are not actual people either, or do you believe they are real people there. You know what, I think that is one of the most stupidest posts I have ever read on this forum and believe me there are a lot of them.

 

[FrogsFriend]

Understood... Two example scenarios, the latter being a significant one IMHO...

Passenger Mission
You have two passenger missions and arrive at your destination. You have a bounty there you naughty boy, so facilities are disabled.

However, you can complete your passenger missions at least. So you complete the first passenger mission and they give you 4t of cargo. This fills up your cargo space. As the second passenger missions wants to give you some cargo too as payment you now cannot complete it.

Upshot, you have to jettison the cargo. If you'd had the same cargo as stolen you'd have been able to sell it (Black Market). If you'd even had illegal cargo, same again. But you cannot sell the legal cargo.

If the Black Market simply also accepted legal/non-stolen cargo (when you cannot access the Commodity Market - a single IF condition most likely), you could then at least sell the 4t of cargo from the 1st mission (no doubt at a bit of a loss). But surely this is less needlessly spiteful/pointless as having to jettison it.

Note: This sort of scenario would no doubt be repeated in numerous guises. Where you'd ultimately have to throw legal cargo away, which had instead been stolen or illegal, you'd have been abe to sell it.

PvP Piracy at CG
CGs are in reality just about the only go-to mechanics PvP Pirates have available to them to orchestrate gameplay. ps: Please don't confuse these individuals witl murder-hobos.

So in this scenario the CMDR will steal cargo from a trader, and then deliver the cargo to the station at least to then also take part in the CG, no doubt to very very very lesser degree. But at least they will get a small bonus for taking part in the CG (no doubt from the lowest tier).

So if the pirate uses a limpet they get stolen cargo and can hand it in (on the Black Market). Fine!

And if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, who then simply jettison some cargo, again fine! It's stolen cargo. (Why would the Trader do this? Because they can probably give the Pirate less cargo in this fashion than messy limpets would otherwise chuck out of their cargo hatch).

However, if the Pirate instead liaises with the Trade, makes the mistake of abandoning the cargo, bizarely the pirate is now stuffed! They cannot hand it in! What's gained by this?



Ultimately, for a very minor change to the Black Market screen (to include legal/non-stolen) cargo if you have a fine/bounty, some needless rough edges are take out of the gameplay, and bit of sensible gameplay is put in place.

I understand now... but they're both a bit niche.

1. Firstly, you will be able to choose the cash/materials-only mission reward and avoid this anyway. However, if you do choose to take multiple passenger missions to a station you're Wanted at and choose the cargo reward option and really don't want to discard the trivially-valued cargo, you could fly elsewhere to sell the cargo in-between dropping the passengers. If you really want that small amount of cash.

2. If you're stealing cargo to hand in at the CG, presumably for the completion cash bonus, then you have the option to go and change to a clean ship to do the handing-in once you've amassed enough loot.

If anything this adds risk/time/reward gameplay choices in both situations, rather than changing the game to effectively remove your choices.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

Let's go through your issue(s)?


First of all this notion of a pirate participating in CG where he's robbing the traders and then contributing to the CG is nothing new. Indeed, it's about the only mechanic in the game where a PvP pirate can make at least a tiny amount of income. And this tiny amount of income is not the quantity of cargo he can steal and sell. But instead the fact he'll at least be in the lower tier of the CG bonus. We're talking about trivial amount of income of course!

So follow me on this? With Beyond Chapter one, I will be able to interdict a trader headed for a CG and do the follow:-

1. Use a limpet and extract some cargo. I have 10t of cargo which is now "stolen".
2. Chat to the CMDR, and agree for them to simply give me 10t of cargo. They do this via Jettison so I have 10t of cargo which is now "stolen".
3. Chat to the CMDR, and agree for them to simply give me 10t of cargo. They do this via Abandon so I have 10t of cargo which is not "stolen" (it's completely legal etc)

This is all well and good... So I now risk going into the station (I have a bounty) so under the new mechanics I have limited facilities as I have to logon annonymously. Fine!

With scenario (1) & (2) above I do exactly what I used to do before Beyond Chapter 1, and go to the Black Market and sell the 10t of stolen cargo. I don't make much money, but at least I'm now in the lower rung of the CG.

HOWEVER, what is new, is that with scenario (3), I can no longer access the Commodity Market to sell my perfectly legal 10t of cargo. Fine I guess... But the needless annoyance is, I can't simply go to the Black Market and sell it there (at a lower price).


So once again, we're not talking about any change of gameplay at all here. Simply the premise to keep a few scenarios from being an unnecessary annoyance of simply saying, if you can't access the Commodity Market (because of a fine/bounty) then at least allow legal goods to be sold to the Black Market (if there is one), obviously at a loss. But that's better and more logical that having to throw them away. Are we trying to create leveled reasoned gameplay, or just introduce "spiteful" gotchas?


And as I listed in the OP (in a SPOILER tag) there's similar annoying scenarios that can be reached via missions and the like.

AGAIN, this is not a huge issue. But for the scope of the change (see the OP) I think it would be a nice thing and a logical thing to implement.



Does that make sense?

As long as whatever you sell on the Black Market doesn't count to the CG. That way my point!
The CG is organized by the station faction. Bypassing the Commodity Market by selling good anonymously on the Black Market shouldn't count towards the CG.
You are there incognito after all. To the authorities.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

As long as whatever you sell on the Black Market doesn't count to the CG. That way my point!
The CG is organized by the station official. Bypassing the Commodity Market by selling good anonymously on the Black Market shouldn't count towards the CG.
You are there incognito after all. To the authorities.

Except you can already do this at the moment with stolen cargo at a black market, so why not clean cargo at a black market?