New engineers - LOVE IT

[Faybs]

Currently wondering if this system will just make it so everyone will have top-level mods because anyone can just keep modding till they get topped out - best module available ...

"when everyone's super.... No one will be"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8I9pYCl9AQ

The current system has a cap too, the difference is that it requires horrendous amounts of grind (I gave up on improving my thrusters beyond 137% after about 200 DD5 rolls - and that was only because of the Dav's Hope exploit; without that I'd have given up way earlier) and the new one doesn't. This change means that FDev is listening to us when we tell them to tone down the grindfest.

 

[Faybs]

Max out every module of every ship is literally what you just said you are going to do.

The new changes cater exclusively to people who want to max out every module of every ship. It discourages freeform tinkering and build diversity.

I disagree. The current system discourages people from playing who can't afford dozens of hours grinding mats, and so the amount of actual build diversity is very low - you have the students/retirees/unemployed on the one edge of the bell curve with god-tier ships, and everyone else on the other edge. The new system lets the rest of us who have a life outside ED to fly with top tier equipment.

 

[Faybs]

Tell that to Fromsoft.

Though I'm sure this would be their response: "As of March 2015, Demon's Souls had sold over 1.7 million copies, while as of May 2016, the Dark Souls trilogy had sold over 13 million copies.[80][81][82] Dark Souls III broke sales records upon release, with the title being the fastest-selling game in Bandai Namco's history, selling over three million copies worldwide a month after its international release"

Yeah PvE and PvP can never work together.

Yeah but those guys are all dead, so their opinions don't count

 

[krylite]

Great new changes. The devs had to make the call as they said in the stream, and they do so under the concern of balance and for the future of the game. Folks wanted more room to hold materials. Well, now we get to do so but it won't be totally without conditions. The tech broker makes it easier to obtain the hard to find materials. Overall the result of this seems to be less time needed to search for particular materials. One could come across most materials needed or otherwise traded for in their normal gameplay. I'm not sure how the new upgrade engr system will turn out, but a lot of new effects which seem exclusive from secondary effects could help further define class and role gameplay. A trader could opt for more defense and surviving escape effects, while a PvP'r could choose a certain style of combat, hopefully more of a rock scissors , paper type of battles rather than one type trumps all style of combat. At least that what I would hope would turn out from the new effects system.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

One thing I will say *against* the new system. I don't think you should have to Maximise each grade before moving onto the next. I'd much rather a "do 1 G1 upgrade, then you unlock G2. Do 1 G2 Upgrade, then you unlock G3".....assuming that you already have the pre-existing rank with them, of course. I will be pushing for that during the beta.

 

[Tobasco da Gama]

Sorry, but I just don't like that there is no variety. ... But with new system you can always build the hot module that is trending.

You realise that the current system allows players to buy a new module and immediately engineer it to G5 as long as they've already repped up with the Engineer, right? (And that maxing out your rep with Engineers can be done without actually applying a single blueprint. I unlocked G5 with Felicity Farseer the first time I visited her because I had banked up a bunch of exploration data first...)

So, actually, it's even easier right now to do the exact thing that you claim you hate about the new system.

 

[Knightshark]

One thing I will say *against* the new system. I don't think you should have to Maximise each grade before moving onto the next. I'd much rather a "do 1 G1 upgrade, then you unlock G2. Do 1 G2 Upgrade, then you unlock G3".....assuming that you already have the pre-existing rank with them, of course. I will be pushing for that during the beta.

Good idea! That would be acceptable.

 

[Faybs]

Good idea! That would be acceptable.

I think that might be the case already, I'm sure I heard either Ed or Sandro mention that they could have done their grade 2 roll sooner than they did. I'm guessing that you unlock the next grade when you're above 67% or so of the current one, just as we have now.

 

[DaggerSnake]

I disagree. The current system discourages people from playing who can't afford dozens of hours grinding mats, and so the amount of actual build diversity is very low - you have the students/retirees/unemployed on the one edge of the bell curve with god-tier ships, and everyone else on the other edge. The new system lets the rest of us who have a life outside ED to fly with top tier equipment.

I agree, but it does come at the expense of smaller diversity of top tier ships. I hope there is a little bit of random difference still there at the top end. I always liked the idea that somewhere out there was an actual fastest ship in the galaxy, not 1000 of them.

 

[krylite]

"Fastest , top-end" ships, and wanted changes to engineering and now "be careful what you wish for". Reminded me of this, becoming quite an adventure

Spoiler

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k9Ukm9LaWg&feature=youtu.be&t=0m57s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkJ3--2K7yo

 

[Faybs]

I agree, but it does come at the expense of smaller diversity of top tier ships. I hope there is a little bit of random difference still there at the top end. I always liked the idea that somewhere out there was an actual fastest ship in the galaxy, not 1000 of them.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment (self-admitted PvE weeny here)... the biggest complaint I hear about engineers is that when they arrived, PvP took a nosedive because it stopped being about pilot skill and became about who can grind the longest. With the new system, because there are no secondaries it's always clear how far away from perfect you are with any given module. So you can always decide whether you really need that last 1% buff (because the maximum for everyone is well known).

 

[DaggerSnake]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment (self-admitted PvE weeny here)... the biggest complaint I hear about engineers is that when they arrived, PvP took a nosedive because it stopped being about pilot skill and became about who can grind the longest. With the new system, because there are no secondaries it's always clear how far away from perfect you are with any given module. So you can always decide whether you really need that last 1% buff (because the maximum for everyone is well known).

yea what you described is the only thing I think is a shame. Less diversity. Oh well.

 

[Chris Simon]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment (self-admitted PvE weeny here)... the biggest complaint I hear about engineers is that when they arrived, PvP took a nosedive because it stopped being about pilot skill and became about who can grind the longest. With the new system, because there are no secondaries it's always clear how far away from perfect you are with any given module. So you can always decide whether you really need that last 1% buff (because the maximum for everyone is well known).

I really don't understand what exactly it is people are complaining about, right now. But I haven't heard many complaints from PvPers (at least from those I know). I certainly hope true PvPers rejoice that there will be some kind of level(ish) playing field, once more.

 

[DaggerSnake]

I really don't understand what exactly it is people are complaining about, right now. But I haven't heard many complaints from PvPers (at least from those I know). I certainly hope true PvPers rejoice that there will be some kind of level(ish) playing field, once more.

The only complaint is people with many ships and modules that they want to max out feeling that it will take too long. Apart from that everything sounds pretty awesome from what I can see.

I personally don’t like the idea of everyone’s ships being maxed the same. To me, it takes a little color from the Galaxy. But on the flip side they’ve put that color on the planets!

 

[AndyJ]

I really don't understand what exactly it is people are complaining about, right now. But I haven't heard many complaints from PvPers (at least from those I know). I certainly hope true PvPers rejoice that there will be some kind of level(ish) playing field, once more.

If you want a level playing field then why can't you all just form a private group, jump into stock ships and have-at-it?
This is pretty much the advice everyone else is force-fed by certain sections of the "PvP" community when the rest of us don't want to play the game in the same way.

No let's get FD to trash engineering instead, making it even grindier for the average player to get a good build ... more seals for the clubbing is my prediction.

 

[Chris Simon]

The only complaint is people with many ships and modules that they want to max out feeling that it will take too long. Apart from that everything sounds pretty awesome from what I can see.

I personally don’t like the idea of everyone’s ships being maxed the same. To me, it takes a little color from the Galaxy. But on the flip side they’ve put that color on the planets!

Well, many moaned about RNG and how they want incremental steps that are easy to understand, so...

 

[TheNut]

At worse-case, it's 5 upgrades per level, 5 levels = 25 rolls per "module". So if I want to retrofit a gunship with 7 multi-canons, that means I need to go through 175 rolls to reach my peek upgrade. And then if I want to switch to pulse lasers, it's another 175 rolls. And if I want to switch play styles and try a different upgrade, it's another 175 rolls. Then switch to fixed instead of gimbals, another 175, etc..

If you're a new player, my condolences to you. For those of you who own Horizons, my advice is to buy several of each module and do a single grade 5 upgrade right now. At least that way when the new system kicks in, it's a one time 5-rolls to max it out.

For FDev, I understand you want a better progression system here, but I think you went overboard and made it far to overwhelming. This is the kind of system where I think players will not be encouraged to experiment. They will ask for the meta and focus their playtime to achieve that. All the hard work your development team puts into providing variation in this game will essentially be thrown out the window as the time investment is just to prohibitive to experiment.

 

[yminale]

Just want to reiterate

1. Gating module through intermittent levels is stupid. Anyone saying you are happy with G3, is well dumb. Keeping the current system of level progression would make the system perfect but of course dramatically reduce grinding and as we all know Fdev wants you to grind because they have no content.

2. Elite PvP are laughing at this because they have God roll ships and they will be superior to the new engineered ships. Thanks Fdev for crippling new players and people who want to do new builds on new ships.

Seriously think about this. For example People have G5 FSD with optimal mass of +60%. New players are probably stuck at 55%. What secondary effects can possibly make up for the loss of God rolls. This apply to all modules.

In the end Engineers will always be broken. They were always about increasing grind (because there is NO late game content). In the end, if you average things out you probably lengthened the grind for the "average" player

The same thing for Tech brokers because Fdev is not very talented and grind is easier than content.

 

[Kaocraft]

I never thought I would read anyone singing the praises of the insanity that is the current mat and data storage inventory limits.

You still haven't. What I have been trying to articulate is that the problem with the current inventory system has very little to do with the existence of limits, and much more to do with the systems whereby you gather the materials in the first place, plus the UX/UI which governs how that information is displayed and interacted with.

Frontier's solution has been to keep the exact same underlying systems (Context-specific material sources obfuscated with RNG), but make the whole inventory system simpler and flatter and dumber, so that the flaws in the underlying system don't matter anymore. That's not really an improvement it's more of a workaround.

The end result is to make the game easier, more straightforward, and potentially less frustrating, but at the cost of depth and player agency. My feeling is that the depth and player agency is worth preserving, and *could* have been preserved with a rework of the UI/UX and the underlying systems for actually acquiring materials.

The other thing is that if they want to go in the direction they are currently going, and they feel the loss of meaningful complexity is worth it; they could go much much further. We don't need hundreds of types of materials and Data. For the type of system they're switching over to, you don't need more than 30 or so, and if they were really sincere about what they were doing they could reduce it to just one.

 

[Kaocraft]

I disagree. The current system discourages people from playing who can't afford dozens of hours grinding mats, and so the amount of actual build diversity is very low - you have the students/retirees/unemployed on the one edge of the bell curve with god-tier ships, and everyone else on the other edge. The new system lets the rest of us who have a life outside ED to fly with top tier equipment.

Did you quote the wrong person? I don't see how anything you said is in disagreement with anything I said.