Game "Philosophy" question... should people have to "suffer" or "go away?"

[Ziggy Stardust]

Last time I replied, the thread had progressed quite a few pages, so I only responded to the last couple of entries. Now I've caught up, there seems to be a confusion here. The confusion revolves around the idea that Frontier listens to a select few people when they decide how progression through this game is fleshed out. The blame is often placed at those with mythical unlimited free time and having Frontier's ear.

Thing is, Frontier already decided how progression was going to go, and those arguing in favour of the implemented strategy merely subscribed to that idea. They did not plant that idea in Frontier Development's employees. So keep in mind that the argument you may have with those arguing in favour of the current state of the progression of the game is an academic one.

Having said that, my T-6 is the coolest ship in the game. By a country mile. And I didn't have to grind for rank, or much for credits. All I need is a small, enjoyable, mental deficiency.

 

[ilo]

Last time I replied, the thread had progressed quite a few pages, so I only responded to the last couple of entries. Now I've caught up, there seems to be a confusion here. The confusion revolves around the idea that Frontier listens to a select few people when they decide how progression through this game is fleshed out. The blame is often placed at those with mythical unlimited free time and having Frontier's ear.

Thing is, Frontier already decided how progression was going to go, and those arguing in favour of the implemented strategy merely subscribed to that idea. They did not plant that idea in Frontier Development's employees. So keep in mind that the argument you may have with those arguing in favour of the current state of the progression of the game is an academic one.

Having said that, my T-6 is the coolest ship in the game. By a country mile. And I didn't have to grind for rank, or much for credits. All I need is a small, enjoyable, mental deficiency.

But you don't understand. The argumentation changes depending on how much space OP has, basically every time there is a corner and a question is dropped, OP dodges it and comes up with something else. I'm waiting for the RNG to show up, basically OP has covered all the other aspects found in reddit.

To enjoy the game people needs to own all ranks, all powerplay mods, in all ships with all modules all engineer mods and no credits to worry about, because you don't understand that people needs all this even if they don't have time to fly with them. Actually, soon they will start asking to fly the thargoid ships.

 

[Genus]

Thing is, Frontier already decided how progression was going to go, and those arguing in favour of the implemented strategy merely subscribed to that idea. They did not plant that idea in Frontier Development's employees. So keep in mind that the argument you may have with those arguing in favour of the current state of the progression of the game is an academic one.

I think Hudson, might be right.

You've touched upon the hugely massive colossal problem there, Ziggy.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think Hudson, might be right.

You've touched upon the hugely massive colossal problem there, Ziggy.

I didn't mean to sound that erotic.

My apologies.

 

[Genus]

I didn't mean to sound that erotic.

Just put a hat on it and make it giggle. That would walk it back to "charming", and avoid any repercussions.

 

[Dietger]

Fun fact about Elite, you could do the entire game in your starting ship. There is no progression in Elite.

 

[Genus]

Fun fact about Elite, you could do the entire game in your starting ship. There is no progression in Elite.

If you're still in a Sidewinder on your only save, you haven't "done the entire game". There's a few other ships to fly yet, which means ranking up and earning many billions of credits.

We have to wrap our heads around the notion of "available content" to understand this premise.

There doesn't seem to be much progression on these boards, I'd agree with that much.

 

[SavingPrincess]

To enjoy the game people needs to own all ranks, all powerplay mods, in all ships with all modules all engineer mods and no credits to worry about, because you don't understand that people needs all this even if they don't have time to fly with them. Actually, soon they will start asking to fly the thargoid ships.

You're SO CLOSE to being right... it's painful... let me make a quick edit...

For some people to enjoy the game some people need to own all ranks, all powerplay mods, in all ships with all modules all engineer mods and no credits to worry about, because for some reason that I can't understand, people needs all this even if they don't have time to fly with them.

There we go... in your attempt at mockery, you're actually almost getting to the point... broken clock n' all that.

 

[znôrt]

microtransactions (it sucks, but I understand it)... but what I don't understand, is this weird desire to see other gamers "suffer" based on the way you (as in the royal you) prefer to play your game

then you're not actually talking about game philosophy, but about some players (erm, forum members) opinions?

this game's philosophy is that more effort gets you more, which is a widely common one in role oriented and multiplayer games alike. some monetize it, elite doesn't, which is nice (pure implementation of the philosophy) but that means there are no shortcuts either (except (cough) accidental exploits). having something to sink time in it is part of the main appeal. players may react differently to this, i personally would have nothing against you cutting corners, others do. again, that's not game philosophy, but opinions. we all have one

now the important question your friends should ask is what has the game to offer to those with limited time, and i think there's quite a lot of stuff you can do flying around in the galaxy in cheap ships. if they do like to do stuff flying around in the galaxy in ships, then you guys will enjoy whatever time you have together with this game, no problem.

so, suffer? not at all! go away? only if you don't like it.

"time is not important, only life is important"

 

[znôrt]

some monetize it, elite doesn't, which is nice (pure implementation of the philosophy) but that means there are no shortcuts either (except (cough) accidental exploits)

to expand a little on this, this game 'contentizes' time (so not so pure after all): there's time sinks galore almost for everything. this is aimed at players that have too much time, to keep them entertained.

however, this mostly affects how you do stuff, not what stuff you can do, so there's fun for everyone.

 

[SavingPrincess]

to expand a little on this, this game 'contentizes' time (so not so pure after all): there's time sinks galore almost for everything. this is aimed at players that have too much time, to keep them entertained.

however, this mostly affects how you do stuff, not what stuff you can do, so there's fun for everyone.

It's an interesting (and in my opinion, generous) perspective to say that "time" is "content." We agree that the game rewards players with TOO much free time... but is that a good thing? ObsidianAnt in his latest video stated (a thing I agree with) that the game should strive to reward BOTH those with lots of free time who like to push everything to the limits, and those with limited free time who just want to be able to get a worthwhile experience... a lot of changes (engineering for example) that are in the beta tend to lock away things from those without that infinite free time.

Which is a shame. It's hard to get an opinion from someone who falls into the "limited free time" category because, as a lot of the people who think the game SHOULD cater to the slow-paced progression have suggested, they've moved on to other games. To me that's a failure of the game's design, not just the game "working as intended."

If you poke around, you'll see a lot of players that "check in" every now and then to see if things have gotten (to them) better... and when they read about things like PowerPlay and Engineering and how much "time" those things take, they go "hmmm... guess I'll check back in later."

A lot of the people on this forum (I can think of about 8 in my head right now) are perfectly happy with those people "staying away," I tend to be a little more critical and think this game should capture the audience interested in it... but fails to do so consistently.

 

[Adhock]

It's hard to get an opinion from someone who falls into the "limited free time" category because, as a lot of the people who think the game SHOULD cater to the slow-paced progression have suggested, they've moved on to other games. To me that's a failure of the game's design, not just the game "working as intended."

If you poke around, you'll see a lot of players that "check in" every now and then to see if things have gotten (to them) better... and when they read about things like PowerPlay and Engineering and how much "time" those things take, they go "hmmm... guess I'll check back in later."

A lot of the people on this forum (I can think of about 8 in my head right now) are perfectly happy with those people "staying away," I tend to be a little more critical and think this game should capture the audience interested in it... but fails to do so consistently.

Hi there. I'm the exception to your entire explanation and I am really surprised at how hard you're trying to double down.

Once. I had all the time in the world to play Elite. Then real life hit me and now I only get to play for a few hours a day a few days a week. So I'm one of those "part time players" everyone seem to be so fond of defending.

I've taken a few breaks here and there due to burnout because I was pushing myself at the game too hard.

Now I'm back.

Again.

Why?

Why do I continue to play a game you believe wastes what little precious time I have?

Because Elite is MY GAME.

Elite is the game that captured me and my interest in it. It's done so well enough that it's brought me back from vacation twice now.

I've cracked many of Elite's secrets. Some of which bizarrely are NOT the kind of common secrets I thought they were. Each one brought a little more enjoyment to Elite Dangerous and made the game fun. Each day a new adventure wondering what the day will bring. Which ship should I take out today? What missions await me? What can I afford to buy next? How many ships can I blow up? Will I lose a rebuy today? Will today be the day that I finally achieve a milestone in my grand vision?

I see the people who "check in" less as those who play Elite as it is and are looking for something different. I don't even regard them as players anymore.

Frankly, debating the popularity of Elite with those such as yourself who insist that Elite is a waste of time that I apparently don't have as someone who's limited to only a few hours every week, is and of itself, a waste of time.

Because those who are enjoying the game?

They're playing it entirely obvious to your woes.

If they barely have time to enjoy the game they love, why would they bother to offer an opposing viewpoint? Taking the valuable time they could be spending playing Elite to reply to you?

Seems to me like they've got their priorities straight. Play the game instead of wasting time here on the forum complaining about how they don't have the time to "Enjoy" Elite: Dangerous.

And I certainly am happy with those who don't enjoy the game or don't have the time to go somewhere else. They're not invested in the game so why should they have any say in it's direction? Why would they push for something in a game they don't play to stick around for? One feature is not going to make them jump back in the pool.

My take is the same as it's always been. It is the rare individual who understands what a True Sandbox is and how to have fun without the game leading them by the hand.

There are thousands of other games if you want the Themepark experience. Let us save and savoir the precious few that aren't.

 

[ilo]

Which is a shame. It's hard to get an opinion from someone who falls into the "limited free time" category because, as a lot of the people who think the game SHOULD cater to the slow-paced progression have suggested, they've moved on to other games. To me that's a failure of the game's design, not just the game "working as intended."

It is hard, however when you get a few (like those of us who belong to the 'part time' category), you dismiss it because it doesn't fit in your narrative.

To you this is a failure in the design. FD design comes from a basic logic flow:
- you do actions that give you rewards. You can use these rewards to buy other ships or modules.

Your logic comes to say the game should work like this:
- Give me the ships modules so I can do the actions later if I want to.

To be honest, it could work. Yeah, nah, it can't. The demanding player-base, those basking all the time want to go from this model:
- get the game -> grind > get the big ship > grind for modules > grind for engineers > complain there is nothing to do
to this one:
- get the game > get all the content > complain there is nothing to do

I don't think it will go anywhere. Someone that uses the 'don't have time to play' sword asking for all the content, will use the same sword later to demand something else.

Elite Dangerous doesn't have a 'ending credits' screen. There is no end, there is no rush.

 

[SavingPrincess]

It is hard, however when you get a few (like those of us who belong to the 'part time' category), you dismiss it because it doesn't fit in your narrative.

To you this is a failure in the design. FD design comes from a basic logic flow:
- you do actions that give you rewards. You can use these rewards to buy other ships or modules.

Your logic comes to say the game should work like this:
- Give me the ships modules so I can do the actions later if I want to.

To be honest, it could work. Yeah, nah, it can't. The demanding player-base, those basking all the time want to go from this model:
- get the game -> grind > get the big ship > grind for modules > grind for engineers > complain there is nothing to do
to this one:
- get the game > get all the content > complain there is nothing to do

I don't think it will go anywhere. Someone that uses the 'don't have time to play' sword asking for all the content, will use the same sword later to demand something else.

Elite Dangerous doesn't have a 'ending credits' screen. There is no end, there is no rush.

What's your in-game play time? Care to screenshot it? Would love to see how "part time you are"

 

[SavingPrincess]

I see the people who "check in" less as those who play Elite as it is and are looking for something different. I don't even regard them as players anymore.

And I certainly am happy with those who don't enjoy the game or don't have the time to go somewhere else. They're not invested in the game so why should they have any say in it's direction? Why would they push for something in a game they don't play to stick around for? One feature is not going to make them jump back in the pool.

In all of that you and I basically have come to the same conclusion... that people like yourself are basically saying "If you don't like it, go away."

Me? I just want more people to like it. If it takes a little more accessibility to bring more people into the Elite fold, I'm all for it. I feel bad that a lot of people can't enjoy the game because they don't feel they have enough time to progress through the paths the game has laid out before them. You, according to you, are fine with them just staying away entirely. I want their money, their evangelism, their passion, and yes, the little "time" they have available to share in this experience in a way that works for them.

All while you still have the option to have YOUR experience too.

That's the thing that you, and ilo and the other 7 people who have been coming down REALLY hard in this thread don't seem to understand, that I don't want to take anything away from you. I want you to play this game the way YOU want to play it, blaze your own trail, play your way n' all that... I just also want OTHER people to have the opportunity to enjoy this universe in a way that works for THEM too.

It's not a zero-sum game, I am not trying to take anything away from you.

 

[ilo]

What's your in-game play time? Care to screenshot it? Would love to see how "part time you are"

Can't screenshot now, but more than a thousand hours since the start of ED, which spans in like 3 years, starting from Jan 2015 to Jan 2018 (now). There were periods of not playing at all in two weeks, and times where I could get a full day (6-8 hours) play time. You can do the maths on your own.

Mind tho, I don't usually play any other game (some random jumps in other's multiplayer with friends), as I don't have time.

 

[ilo]

That's the thing that you, and ilo and the other 7 people who have been coming down REALLY hard in this thread..

Hey, I have to stop you here. This is a great misdirection on what we are saying.

You say to enjoy the game players have to have access to everything. We say that is not true, and you turn this into we don't want people to have access to everything because, for whatever reason, you are sure that to enjoy this game you need access to everything.

If you want to count the numbers and say "only 8 people are saying no", I think it is like around 8 people in this thread saying yes too. See? none of this samples are big enough to even be considered by FD to take a decision. Please, refrain to use the vocal minority term again as it applies to both sides.

To finish the allegation, I'm not saying no to enjoyment. I'm saying you are wrong thinking a player needs access to everything to enjoy the game, which is intrinsic to the players nature that of course, not all players will enjoy everything in the game.

Would it help if on character reset you come to chose the ship you want instead of being given a sidewinder, under the condition of NOT being able to change your ship unless you reset the account again? this way any player could enjoy all the ships doing all the activities? I know the answer, don't bother.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Can't screenshot now, but more than a thousand hours since the start of ED, which spans in like 3 years, starting from Jan 2015 to Jan 2018 (now). There were periods of not playing at all in two weeks, and times where I could get a full day (6-8 hours) play time. You can do the maths on your own.

Mind tho, I don't usually play any other game (some random jumps in other's multiplayer with friends), as I don't have time.

Well, I promise that I'm not some new kid here to tell y'all what to do:

But total time in game is about 288 hours or so:

(if my maths are correct)

So I'm about as part-time as you can get, most of that time I would wager was post-Rift purchase. This is why I'm so passionate about making this game better, I want to bring more people with less time into this universe. Sorry if you all think that making this game more accessible is a bad idea... but I'm standing by it.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Hey, I have to stop you here. This is a great misdirection on what we are saying.

You say to enjoy the game players have to have access to everything. We say that is not true, and you turn this into we don't want people to have access to everything because, for whatever reason, you are sure that to enjoy this game you need access to everything.

If you want to count the numbers and say "only 8 people are saying no", I think it is like around 8 people in this thread saying yes too. See? none of this samples are big enough to even be considered by FD to take a decision. Please, refrain to use the vocal minority term again as it applies to both sides.

To finish the allegation, I'm not saying no to enjoyment. I'm saying you are wrong thinking a player needs access to everything to enjoy the game, which is intrinsic to the players nature that of course, not all players will enjoy everything in the game.

Would it help if on character reset you come to chose the ship you want instead of being given a sidewinder, under the condition of NOT being able to change your ship unless you reset the account again? this way any player could enjoy all the ships doing all the activities? I know the answer, don't bother.

Holy heck you are SO binary...

I am not saying

to enjoy the game players have to have access to everything.

I am saying that SOME players need that.

I think it is like around 8 people in this thread saying yes too.

LOL please don't make me pull data on this... I really literally don't have the time... suffice it to say, there are PLENTY of other threads, all started by different people, that support the "make the game less grindy" sentiment, and yet in all of those I have seen the same small group of people detract... it's not my first rodeo on this, a LOT of game forums have similar behavior... humans are simple creatures ultimately.

Honestly... your idea about the ship choice would be great, but that "unless you reset the account thing" is a little draconian... I would honestly say that a single-ship progression isn't terrible... that was the original game afterall... but if that's the case all ships should be equal in strength and function with slight variation, and mostly cosmetic differences... and then the player should be able to "Trade" later if they see fit... not a terrible idea frankly... but a fundamental redesign vs. just raising payouts for optional tasks and giving the option to decrease grind elements with some in-game options.

 

[ilo]

Well, I promise that I'm not some new kid here to tell y'all what to do:

https://i.imgur.com/aJ3JL29.png

But total time in game is about 288 hours or so:

https://i.imgur.com/irr70EQ.png
(if my maths are correct)

So I'm about as part-time as you can get, most of that time I would wager was post-Rift purchase. This is why I'm so passionate about making this game better, I want to bring more people with less time into this universe. Sorry if you all think that making this game more accessible is a bad idea... but I'm standing by it.

i'm pretty sure you are not new, it is easy to tell.

Your goal is very good, but the way you approached, at least this time in the forum was totally incorrect. You came hard on the old player base creating this fake wall of amusement based on unnecessary assets just because you extrapolated your -dopamine-injection- granted by keeping a constant stream of 'achievement' progress that you complete with cheat codes or cheatengine when it doesn't come easy.

I'm mentoring new players when I can, I'm always gifting the game to friends, and I spent most of the time teaching and playing with unknown people I want to call game friends. When no one is around I go do my own stuff or I continue helping others in BGS or go get some more mats for the synthesis, fly around pleiades or whatever. Probably all these are the reasons why I can't get into the Billionaire group, I'm too busy dying to help others because me ships are not -grind-top-notch-A-rated-engineers- to show off in youtube how easily I can kill everything that gets in front of me. I'm probably one of those few that knowing NPCs ignore silent running, still flies in a shieldless DBS. Learn to die first, there is no harm in that.

TLDR; of all the different methods and play styles to join the game, quick access to everything is not one of my favourites, but I guess you knew that.