Game "Philosophy" question... should people have to "suffer" or "go away?"

ilo

ilo
SavingPrincess said:
Holy heck you are SO binary...
Click to expand...

my fault only :)

SavingPrincess said:
LOL please don't make me pull data on this... I really literally don't have the time... suffice it to say, there are PLENTY of other threads, all started by different people, that support the "make the game less grindy" sentiment, and yet in all of those I have seen the same small group of people detract... it's not my first rodeo on this, a LOT of game forums have similar behavior... humans are simple creatures ultimately.
Click to expand...

This also go both ways, there is a lot of prosa just saying the opposite. What I notice is that despite all the bad things that happened in ED (in terms of bugs, discrepancies, unbalance, etc), and oh boy there were and still there are a lot, the people that survived these waves are still playing the game. I tend, as a matter of life experience, listen to these people instead of putting all my efforts in people that uses this game as:
- new youtube income source.
- pit stop waiting for SC to release.
- I paid, I demand
- etc.

One question for you, what makes you think that people leaving the game at the first speedbump they find will not leave the game in the next one? You can't take all forum posts seriously when you see they come from someone that writes his 'I want everything' complain at the same time he is asking "what is a bounty" in another thread and then the guy is never seen again, can you?
 

frostypaw

frostypaw
ilo said:
Your goal is very good
Click to expand...

It's really not. If it was he wouldn't keep making out like there are only 8 people interested in the game being a normal progression based game like everyone else wants. It'd stand by itself and he wouldn't be having to proactively diminish the other side.

There's a reason games are designed to reward effort and time invested and it's not because everyone else is stupid and this one guy is 'right' (as he keeps putting it rather than just as his opinion) - it because after decades of tests and trying things this stuff works well. The whole thing is based on a few entirely personal assumptions drawn out as conclusions that apply to everyone.

This wouldn't get more players - it'd get a brief rash of crazy then they'd leave. We know this and we see it all the time as people use exploits, grab all the cash and the ships then complain there's nothing to do and leave.

"Make the game less grindy" isn't even evidence for this case - people always want things easier but easier != instant and free and nobody argues for that in those threads and to claim they do is a wild misrepresentation.

This has been researched endlessly, there are countless articles you can read about it:
http://theconversation.com/the-power-of-rewards-and-why-we-seek-them-out-62691
https://www.learning-theories.com/game-reward-systems.html
http://onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_game/2005/08/designing_rewar.html
http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2016/07/why-do-achievements-trophies-and-badges-work/
etc

I could literally go on all day posting links to the tens of thousands of times this has been gone over. Yes this would bring a few extra players, it would lose many more.

There's a test case available anyway, it's even a space game - No Man's Sky has a 'creative' mode which is rather like his suggestions and a strawpoll so you can see how many use it and that would be the long term players who'd respond to such a thing. The steamdb graphs show the level of player retention they've achieved.
 

Genus

Genus
znôrt said:
"time is not important, only life is important"
Click to expand...

SavingPrincess said:
Which is a shame. It's hard to get an opinion from someone who falls into the "limited free time" category because, as a lot of the people who think the game SHOULD cater to the slow-paced progression have suggested, they've moved on to other games. To me that's a failure of the game's design, not just the game "working as intended."
Click to expand...

[video=youtube;p020T2j9EGc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p020T2j9EGc[/video]
 
Last edited:

Blackcompany

Banned
B
znôrt said:
then you're not actually talking about game philosophy, but about some players (erm, forum members) opinions?

this game's philosophy is that more effort gets you more, which is a widely common one in role oriented and multiplayer games alike. some monetize it, elite doesn't, which is nice (pure implementation of the philosophy) but that means there are no shortcuts either (except (cough) accidental exploits). having something to sink time in it is part of the main appeal. players may react differently to this, i personally would have nothing against you cutting corners, others do. again, that's not game philosophy, but opinions. we all have one :D

now the important question your friends should ask is what has the game to offer to those with limited time, and i think there's quite a lot of stuff you can do flying around in the galaxy in cheap ships. if they do like to do stuff flying around in the galaxy in ships, then you guys will enjoy whatever time you have together with this game, no problem.

so, suffer? not at all! go away? only if you don't like it.

"time is not important, only life is important"
Click to expand...

You're wrong.

This games philosophy has NOTHING to do with effort. It's that the more TIME YOU SPEND, the more you get. Effort doesn't factor into it at all, which is a fitting mirror of the underlying design ethos, where Missions are concerned.

Unfortunately, some people, while enjoying the flight mechanics, lack the unique combination of immense amounts of free time and a high tolerance for repetitive Tedium that Elite requires in order to obtain larger ships.

If I could fly a Python, I'd play MORE than I do now. Because that ship can be an "only" ship. But I HATE outfitting and dragging a fleet of ships everywhere, so, I find early game miserable and unfun instead.

Time not effort. That's Elite.
 

JRok

JRok
ilo said:
Usually new players get bored easily after getting the big ship with grind, not only that, they complain and become vocal because there is nothing else to do.
Click to expand...
^this

If you are fond of Sci-fi and like to pilot, you won't usually get bored with this game.

When I feel like I have everything... I just reset my save and start over... it's refreshing, but some would deem it mad... you have to love the game to do it.
 
  • Like (+1)
Reactions: ilo

znôrt

znôrt
Blackcompany said:
You're wrong.

This games philosophy has NOTHING to do with effort. It's that the more TIME YOU SPEND, the more you get. Effort doesn't factor into it at all, which is a fitting mirror of the underlying design ethos, where Missions are concerned.

Unfortunately, some people, while enjoying the flight mechanics, lack the unique combination of immense amounts of free time and a high tolerance for repetitive Tedium that Elite requires in order to obtain larger ships.

If I could fly a Python, I'd play MORE than I do now. Because that ship can be an "only" ship. But I HATE outfitting and dragging a fleet of ships everywhere, so, I find early game miserable and unfun instead.

Time not effort. That's Elite.
Click to expand...

from the context it's pretty obvious i meant 'time' with 'effort'. the whole post is about time, and any effort takes time. effort is not only having skill or intelect, but putting those into action. maybe poor wording on my part, you could have simply pointed that out, instead of being so quick in calling me wrong (be my guest) and ranting about a totally different off-topic (skill) on which btw i could agree to some point. there is indeed quite a bit skill involved in this game if you do pvp combat but access to it is walled behind timesinks and the repetitive tedium you mention (except if you prearrange fair fights).

i disagree, however, in that getting a python requires unreasonable effort/time. to give you a perspective: to have meaningful pvp (i.e., pvp where skill counts) you need modifications to all of that python's modules, each of which warrants tens to thousands of rolls costing thousands of gathered materials. then again, none of these are necessary, except if you want to do pvp in a game that has a particularly bad pvp implementation, but to each his own. op was not about pvp, but about the game in general, and i stand by my statement that there is a lot to do and enjoy for people with limited time. to their liking or not, that's subjective.

i'm also amused by the paradox that people with limited time complain about repetitive gameplay. how do they actually manage to get bored in no time?
 
Last edited:

frostypaw

frostypaw
znôrt said:
to have meaningful pvp (i.e., pvp where skill counts) you need modifications to all of that python's modules, each of which warrants tens to thousands of rolls costing thousands of gathered materials.
Click to expand...

Only if you're wanting to fight people modded to that level.

And still tens of thousands of rolls?
 

znôrt

znôrt
frostypaw said:
Only if you're wanting to fight people modded to that level.
Click to expand...

i also said:

znôrt said:
(except if you prearrange fair fights)
Click to expand...

:D

frostypaw said:
And still tens of thousands of rolls?
Click to expand...

depends on your luck. afaik from this forum tens of thousands of rolls is not uncommon. across a few builds it adds up! yes, don't count on me for that, i ditched that part of the game months ago. will see if current engineer changes do some good, or end in a riot! :D

edit/add: btw i said 'tens to thousands'. but tens of thousands is still frequent.
 
Last edited:

mossfoot

mossfoot
Short version:

You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Seriously, that's what it boils down to. This game... NO game... will please everyone all of the time. You make XYZ changes to make things accessible, and you will have a number of people angry and leaving because of what they feel is now missing from the game. Are they now the ones who have to suffer or go away?
 

Spacegamejunkie

Spacegamejunkie
mossfoot said:
Short version:

You can please some of the people all of the time.
You can please all of the people some of the time.
But you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Seriously, that's what it boils down to. This game... NO game... will please everyone all of the time. You make XYZ changes to make things accessible, and you will have a number of people angry and leaving because of what they feel is now missing from the game. Are they now the ones who have to suffer or go away?
Click to expand...

MAY I ADD: UNLESS YOU HAVE OPTIONS FOR ALL
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom