PvP ATR wont save you

Wow real downer for the few suckers that are actually in open.
Looking at this post while in mobius I think the only proper response is woehahahahahaha.
 
hi,

So what we could be looking at is a levelling of the playing field when gank vs "ordinary" player may result in fights between more evenly matched ship load outs?

Ahh no.

Unless you have engineered the shields hull and engine you stand no chance. Don't listen to the "Git Gud" brigade because they spout that simply to mine your salt (as they put it). Remember they aren't looking for a fight they simply want to murder you, apparently that helps you learn the game (don't ask me how), if they wanted a fight they wouldn't have targeted an unarmed freighter/liner. Only thing going to help is new crime and punishment having the balls to have a positive effect for the average player.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/7tgcst/atr_are_to_easy/?utm_source=reddit-android

Nothing will.

All this new C&P did is to separate ganking ships from legit pvp ships, which will mean that we are going to have ships DEDICATED TO MURDER instead of whats right now which is general PvP outfitted ships.

A hot ship cannot use the services of a station which means it has to have a scoop and A rated fsd which is not min maxed for pvp.
Legit pvp cant happen with this ship untill bounties are paid, but guess what, this ship will still be able to gank anything that moves.

Congrats fdev, you created a bigger monster instead of killing it.

Cant wait for 3.0

Burn.

I think it is fine to bring up legitimate points of attention and criticism.
FDev cannot foresee everything that is going to happen when a build gets released to the players and needs our input.

But...
What is up with the incessant childish whiny tone of some of the criticizers?
Or are you actually still a child, op?
In that case you perhaps do act age appropriate and you can ignore this comment.
 
apparently that helps you learn the game (don't ask me how)

Your pov is fair enough but for the bit I quoted try looking at it the other way around. If you want to learn how to deal with these situations the opportunity is there.

Some choose to learn (jasonbarron is an example of this kind of player), some choose not to play with these types (by choosing a group or solo), others choose to remain in open but avoid hotspots (essentially what I do).

For the players who remain in open there is added gameplay in preparing for these encounters, not everyone wants this of course, but the choice is there.

What is up with the incessant childish whiny tone of some of the criticizers?
Or are you actually still a child, op?
In that case you perhaps do act age appropriate and you can ignore this comment.

We have gone over this recently (in a now heavily moderated & closed thread), there is no need for this.

If you feel the post is full of hyperbole just mentally strip that out & respond to the point being made. Like a grown up.
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
I think it is fine to bring up legitimate points of attention and criticism.
FDev cannot foresee everything that is going to happen when a build gets released to the players and needs our input.

But...
What is up with the incessant childish whiny tone of some of the criticizers?
Or are you actually still a child, op?
In that case you perhaps do act age appropriate and you can ignore this comment.

Not whining at all. What should I whine about exactly?
After testing few gameplay areas in the beta I pointed out what is going to happen with the new gameplay changes, which are in fact playing in my favour.

I think FDEV couldn't or didnt want to forsee this outcome.
 
If you came to gank you will now equip a fuel scoop, A rated fsd etc, you are not min maxed for pvp any longer. You are now min maxed for committing crimes. Congrats fdev.
That makes you a softer target for "good guy" PvPers then. If the intent was to give you enough consequences so that you have to make a compromise in order to do a certain activity then I'd say ATR is doing at least part of its job. You're already contemplating how to get around the problem of ATR vs the problem of other PvPers.

But no capes.
No capes, no dice! One does not simply do vigilantism without a cape.
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
That makes you a softer target for "good guy" PvPers then. If the intent was to give you enough consequences so that you have to make a compromise in order to do a certain activity then I'd say ATR is doing at least part of its job. You're already contemplating how to get around the problem of ATR vs the problem of other PvPers.


No capes, no dice! One does not simply do vigilantism without a cape.

This exactly what I am saying, waking is easy enough for a gank ship. It can no longer fight back. The only thing it is good for is killing softer targets and running away when facing retaliation.

White knighting or player BH wont work because dying for a gank ship is very expensive, and if it doesn't want to die its practically impossible to kill it.
 
Notoriety and Interstellar bounties. Just because you don't believe in centralised government doesn't mean you are happy to be a criminal safe haven (although you might be). Anarchies often have superpower related factions too, no law means no one to stop the ATR going there either.

No matter what you've done, there are those that will support it, and others that won't care, or won't ask. Essentially no act, including mass murder and worse, should remove the ability to do dock at all stations.

The bubble of inhabited space in Elite bears more resemblance to the world of the 16th-19th centuries than to the modern world, in terms of the structure of civilization and the limits of law. Even in modern times we've had genocidal war criminals, mass murdering terrorists, and the like live openly, or nearly so, for protracted periods of time, often without ever being held accountable. Any system that would remove all possibility of doing the same in game is automatically even more immersion defying that the current, ultra lax, systems we have on live.

As for ATR, having them track targets across jurisdictions is part of the increased persistence they need, though this should be less than a sure thing, and should have the potential to cause international incidents (such as the Lillehammer affair, for example).

The game definitely needs more vigilantes.

Mechanisms that make vigilantism workable are going to need to come first.

I remember watching a SDC video where one of the guys had nerfed their fuel tank so low that fuel use in the battle left them without enough fuel to jump. I think IIRC they could have selected a nearer system but they panicked and died. So never nerf yourself that much you leave yourself open to a ganking when you are ganking.

Most dedicated combat vessels aren't out ganking.

Most pvpiers put 2D fsd which gives you extra speed and agility.

Overly narrow definition of 'PvPer'.
 
This exactly what I am saying, waking is easy enough for a gank ship. It can no longer fight back. The only thing it is good for is killing softer targets and running away when facing retaliation.

White knighting or player BH wont work because dying for a gank ship is very expensive, and if it doesn't want to die its practically impossible to kill it.
A PvP ship that has committed mass murder is in the same boat though. If dying is expensive to them they'll high wake on outta there like it's an olympic sport anyway. Nobody dies if they don't want to in this game Algo, you know that.

What you're ultimately saying is that now because of the ATR you will have to choose to either spec out for maximum gankadge or for sustained PvP because you will no longer be able to camp out at a system and gank all day without having to constantly wake out from ATR engagements.
 
The only thing it is good for is killing softer targets and running away when facing retaliation

This is how BGS attacks work though. The only way to stop this would be to put more value on the ships you kill. So, killing a puny Hauler is worthless BGS wise but expensive bounty wise, while killing a security Anaconda is worth more BGS wise.
 

Goose4291

Banned
Well they're consistent ;)

I suggested in another thread that the docking restrictions be applied to all stations (including anarchies). As an addition to the beta stuff I think it would be an effective deterrent, eventually.

I think thats a step off the path here.

If that was the case, pirates would be unable to sell their ill-gotten cargo anywhere, which is counter-counter-intuitive to the concepts of this new C&P update.
 

Goose4291

Banned
Ahh no.

Unless you have engineered the shields hull and engine you stand no chance. Don't listen to the "Git Gud" brigade because they spout that simply to mine your salt (as they put it). Remember they aren't looking for a fight they simply want to murder you, apparently that helps you learn the game (don't ask me how), if they wanted a fight they wouldn't have targeted an unarmed freighter/liner. Only thing going to help is new crime and punishment having the balls to have a positive effect for the average player.

Absolute nonsense.

I fly an adder in open, play predominately as a trader and punch through CG 'blockades' on a weekly basis by a combination of guile, planning and loadout selection.
 
The only thing Besieger has proven is that, apparently, the AI is stupid (which I will test myself tonight). Thank you for reporting that to Sarah, Besieger!

Well yeah, there are some OP pplayers out there. What does the new C&P do? It gives them an astonishing high bounty for someone to claim some day, and will force them to spend more time grinding credits to pay for their destroyed ships.

Oh, and by the way: I think it is perfect that hot ships are forced into anarchy systems. Hell yeah, criminals like I (well, my second account) are finally being treated like criminals!! YAHOOOO!!!!
 
...


ATR doesn't need omniscience or inhuman response times, they need persistence.

ATR needs to be able to track and trail offenders, proactively interdict/harass them, and pursue them across many systems, if need be.

I very much agree with this!
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
A PvP ship that has committed mass murder is in the same boat though. If dying is expensive to them they'll high wake on outta there like it's an olympic sport anyway. Nobody dies if they don't want to in this game Algo, you know that.

What you're ultimately saying is that now because of the ATR you will have to choose to either spec out for maximum gankadge or for sustained PvP because you will no longer be able to camp out at a system and gank all day without having to constantly wake out from ATR engagements.

The situation today is that I can gank and pvp with the same ship. I can do regular 1 v 1 or wing fights. So lets say I have someone trying to claim a bounty on me, I wont mind fighting untill death, because:
A: the rebuy is cheap
B: my ship is outfitted to fight back

With the new system, my ship is no longer outfitted to fight back. Running from a fight in a gank outfitted ship is easier than ever. What is accomplished here is my ship is 100% dedicated for ganks, I wont "waiste" my time with fighting off bounty hunters or just doing regular 1 v 1. Right now my ship is only good for one thing, kill weak pray and run away.

The system is not protecting this weak pray, it transformed previously pvp able ships to become gank dedicated ships.
 
Highwaking (or even low waking) from a 1 v 1 is poor and is looked down at. Most pvpiers put 2D fsd which gives you extra speed and agility.

From a duel, sure. You agree in advance whether its to the death or shields down or whatever, and then you stick to that. In Open play, you know you are going to lose, you run if you have any brains.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
ATR doesn't need omniscience or inhuman response times, they need persistence.

ATR needs to be able to track and trail offenders, proactively interdict/harass them, and pursue them across many systems, if need be.
As others have said before, this is the crux of it. The lack of persistance is where FDev have failed the most with ATR. No threat in supercruise, and a new ETA/timer after the next kill makes ATR useless.
Ganking will now go from "gank them all for as long as I please" to "gank 1, then 1, then 1, then 1...."

Stupid AI or not, they need to force an outlaw to leave the system, not just the current instance.

From a duel, sure. You agree in advance whether its to the death or shields down or whatever, and then you stick to that. In Open play, you know you are going to lose, you run if you have any brains.
Didn't you read the memo Ag? Highwaking is cheating :D
 
I think thats a step off the path here.

If that was the case, pirates would be unable to sell their ill-gotten cargo anywhere, which is counter-counter-intuitive to the concepts of this new C&P update.

The C&P system in beta allows you to dock & access certain facilities, the black market is one of the ones that would still be available.


I think that, as ALGOMATIC describes, as long as the baddie can jump away to somewhere safe the majority of the new C&P is ineffective. If there is nowhere to dock for repairs (and the Power Plant cannot be repaired in the field) it puts a soft limit on how much damage one ship can do. Eventually the power plant will be so close to zero that the baddie's ship will be destroyed, and the rest of the C&P stuff (bounties, rebuy etc) can kick in & become useful.

The main objection seems to be lore, as Morbad points out. I believe it could be overcome, I agree there would be a bit of handwavium though.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
The C&P system in beta allows you to dock & access certain facilities, the black market is one of the ones that would still be available.


I think that, as ALGOMATIC describes, as long as the baddie can jump away to somewhere safe the majority of the new C&P is ineffective.
I disagree. If the baddie jumps away, then C&P has done its job; keeping the baddie from killing any more in that system. I don't want every murderer to die every time they commit murder. I do however want them to be unable to stick around and keep killing when they reach a certain treshold.

Unfortunately, it's the lack of NPC persistance that prevents C&P (ie. ATR) from being effective. They don't chase outside of the current instance, which they absolutely should. And they should react to your presence immediately if you return to the system from a hi-wake.
 
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