PvP ATR wont save you

I'm not sure that will work out too well.

Certain players will simply *sweep the leg* and leave you wondering why all your instances are, urm, a bit empty.

So we need something not too bad, but not too easy either & the beta C&P is too easy to evade. I'd favour a player based solution but it hasn't worked for the past few years, is there any particular reason why? I guess because there's no deterrent, just keep coming back until you get bored.

I still like my idea of restricting repair/rearm everywhere best, it's implementable & the objections can be overcome at least as well as other stuff already in the game, and I've probably got all the useful feedback from here I'm going to get.

Thanks to those that gave useful feedback, I appreciate it.
 
I'd favour a player based solution but it hasn't worked for the past few years, is there any particular reason why?

Because escape is too easy.

The new bounties are a strong incentive, but weighed against the odds of being able claim it, still aren't enough. It also doesn't help that the assumption is that targets will either log out or disconnect.

If I fly around in a vette with a 200 million cr bounty on it, some people will try to claim it, but most people who would otherwise be inclined to try will assume that I will simply leave if I am faced with losing my ship and that I will get away, because the tools required to stop or follow me are woefully lacking (which is true), OR they will assume that most people in my situation would just disconnect or log off (I won't, but not everyone knows me or my CMDR). A faster ship would be even less likely to be attacked because the odds of downing it would be even smaller.

You can't have a player based solution without a much longer log off timer, actual punishment for combat logging, and some way to track and corner CMDR vessels.
 
I'd favour a player based solution but it hasn't worked for the past few years, is there any particular reason why? I guess because there's no deterrent, just keep coming back until you get bored.

In addition to time to kill and combat logging, why would you play the "good guy" in game right now? What game mechanics support it? So you can try and collect a 50k credit bounty?

For the ganker, they just have to find a hollow square. Any hollow square will do.

For the bounty hunter, you've got to find a wanted hollow square.

I started off trying to be a "good guy", but it can get boring. Lately I've just been shooting everything.
 
In addition to time to kill and combat logging, why would you play the "good guy" in game right now? What game mechanics support it? So you can try and collect a 50k credit bounty?

For the ganker, they just have to find a hollow square. Any hollow square will do.

For the bounty hunter, you've got to find a wanted hollow square.

I started off trying to be a "good guy", but it can get boring. Lately I've just been shooting everything.

I appreciate your candour, thank you. The issues you describe are precisely what I'm hoping to solve.
 
In addition to time to kill and combat logging, why would you play the "good guy" in game right now? What game mechanics support it? So you can try and collect a 50k credit bounty?

For the ganker, they just have to find a hollow square. Any hollow square will do.

For the bounty hunter, you've got to find a wanted hollow square.

I started off trying to be a "good guy", but it can get boring. Lately I've just been shooting everything.
I've never really had that problem of getting bored because there's nobody to shoot. If there are no "bad guy" targets around I just interdict some wanted NPCs or go do something else. If I'm really itching for a fight there are always ways to find one without resorting to ganking everything that moves. There's almost always a CG going on somewhere, Maia has become a particularly nice source of hunting the players that are preying on Thargoid hunters and it's an Anarchy so no worrying about being trolled with the old crimes off/on trick. Then there's always dropping into a PvP discord group like GCI and finding somebody nearby who wants a fight.

That's not to say that the bounty hunting mechanic doesn't need some serious love though. For starters we need a dedicated bounty hunter contact and/or menu service in stations whereby you can browse and pursue wanted targets. We crucially need persistant "bad guy" tags to show up for any outlaw above a certain notoriety level.

I appreciate your candour, thank you. The issues you describe are precisely what I'm hoping to solve.
Well there you have another reason for Anarchies to be the safe haven for outlaw players to run to and park at rather than having a "death countdown timer" on their powerplant. If a good guy wants to find a fight they can go to a nearby Anarchy, shake the hornets nest and see what comes out. Right now the game only ever caters to the bad guy in the sense that they can always go to a system and kick the hornets nest whenever they want a fight. The good guys have no such equivalent and in your proposal they still won't.

The "Billy the kid mode" of fight till you die provides some content for the outlaw player but it leaves good guys high and dry. I think we should also start asking, where's the content for "good guy" players out of all this?
 
Well there you have another reason for Anarchies to be the safe haven for outlaw players to run to and park at rather than having a "death countdown timer" on their powerplant. If a good guy wants to find a fight they can go to a nearby Anarchy, shake the hornets nest and see what comes out. Right now the game only ever caters to the bad guy in the sense that they can always go to a system and kick the hornets nest whenever they want a fight. The good guys have no such equivalent and in your proposal they still won't.

The "Billy the kid mode" of fight till you die provides some content for the outlaw player but it leaves good guys high and dry. I think we should also start asking, where's the content for "good guy" players out of all this?

The countdown to death is something I envision as a last resort, with the gameplay you describe being during the early to intermediate stages of criminality. As I said earlier though, I'm sure if we were to compare notes on where that line should be drawn I would very probably draw it much earlier than most in this thread, so I haven't drawn that line beyond saying after the ATR kick in, or maxed out notoriety (ie as bad as the game records). I agree where the lines are drawn will be an important balancing factor.

With regard to the Bounty Hunter love, if the baddie is tough enough to reach the level where my proposed 'countdown' kicks in, I'd expect them to be essentially impossible to kill in any single encounter (they can just jump away). However each time the Bounty Hunters do a little damage to the power plant, eventually someone will take that last 1%, maybe get the kill during a reboot. It would allow multiple less skilled Cmdrs to independently or collectively contribute to the final kill, and that final one could get a big reward.

Vigilante justice ;)

Emergent content delivered in both directions. The baddie gets a bunch of volunteer content providers delivered in a steady stream, the bounty hunters know that one of them will get the final kill and maybe a big reward (if they KWS) too ;) It's more than we have now.
 

Goose4291

Banned
The initial concepts for Star Wars Galaxies regarding Jedi always make me feel a little warm and fuzzy when I read these threads.

To quote Raph Koster

I had a brainfart that never made it past those early days, there in that house. The idea took inspiration from Hardcore mode in the Diablo games. We would offer a Jedi system that effectively gave a different way to play the game. A method that kept Jedi rare, powerful, and yet allowed everyone a shot.

Every player would have a special character slot available to them, distinct and parallel from their regular character. This character would be locked into one profession, one class: Jedi. They’d start out weak as a kitten though, untrained in combat or anything, and with barely any Force abilities at all. Luke without womprat-shooting experience maybe.

Although the design wasn’t done yet, we knew that the game would be classless. So this pathetic Force Sensitive character would be able to gain better Force powers by earning Force XP by using the Force. They could also go off and learn other skills. But either way: if they died, that was it. They were dead. Reroll. Start over. It was that dreaded word: permadeath.

In the corner of the screen, there would be a timer running logging how long you had managed to survive. It was your score, for this weird little minigame. The name of the game was survival, but it was rigged.

You see, the moment you used Force powers within view of anything or anyone Imperial, or indeed any player, they could report you to the Empire. To Darth Vader’s Death Squadron in fact. And that generated someone to come after you. After first, just lowly Stormtroopers. Eventually, cooler characters, such as some of the bounty hunters like IG-88. Eventually, really cool ones like Boba Fett or fan favorite Mara Jade.

These would be brutal fights. Odds are you’d just die. So hiding and training very carefully would be essential. But it wouldn’t matter, of course. As you advanced, your powers would get “noisier” and cooler. You wouldn’t be able to resist using Force Lightning in a crowd, or equipping your lightsaber in view of some Imperials. And eventually, after Boba Fett and Mara Jade and everyone else had failed, well, that would be when Darth Vader himself bestirred himself to take care of the little problem.

And you would die. It would be rigged.

Your time would go up on a leaderboard, and everyone would be able to ooh and aah over the hardcore permadeath player who managed to get all the way to seeing Darth Vader and getting her kicked. As a reward, if you managed to make it to Jedi Master, your very last skill would be “Blue Glowy.” You’d unlock a special emote for your main character slot that allowed them to summon up the ghosts of every Jedi who had made it that far. So all the bragging rights would carry over to your other character. Heck, I had a picture in my mind of the most amazing player summoning up not one, but a whole set of them — the most badass player would have a coterie of Jedi advisors, hovering around their campfire, as they showed up.

The response to this idea was pretty much “Permadeath?!?” And so Hardcore mode never happened.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
The false premise that I was referring to in that quote was concerning several players who are lobbying for anarchy systems being made off limits to "hot" players and countdown timers in our ships that end in an explosion if the ATR ships don't manage to catch and kill us.
Ah, sorry. You didn't put a quote in your post, so that wasn't entirely clear to me. Gotcha!

What people need to understand about player killers is very simple: nothing you can think of short of running them permanently out of the game is going to stop the murdering. And Fdev doesn't want to go that far.
FDev shouldn't go that far. FDev should however keep working on in-game consequences for those actions, which they are trying (albeit failing) to do at the moment. Consequence hasn't been a thing since the game launched tbh.
 
Ah, sorry. You didn't put a quote in your post, so that wasn't entirely clear to me. Gotcha!


FDev shouldn't go that far. FDev should however keep working on in-game consequences for those actions, which they are trying (albeit failing) to do at the moment. Consequence hasn't been a thing since the game launched tbh.

I think you and I agree on most of the main issues facing the community and the game. I suspect I have more sympathy for the Devil, though:)
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
I think you and I agree on most of the main issues facing the community and the game. I suspect I have more sympathy for the Devil, though:)
Actually, we do agree on most things. We just have different ways of articulating our views on them :D

I'm a SEAK, so I don't have much of that sympathy gene in me ;)
 
...Count down timer? Are you kidding?
7rwSpeH.gif




I'm good at being bad. I don't usually die unless its PvP and I've decided "Hey, I'm going to fight until I go boom"


Seems people won't be happy until they have a button that they can pop wanted ships with at will.
 
...Count down timer? Are you kidding?
http://i.imgur.com/7rwSpeH.gif



I'm good at being bad. I don't usually die unless its PvP and I've decided "Hey, I'm going to fight until I go boom"


Seems people won't be happy until they have a button that they can pop wanted ships with at will.

Some won't, you're right. Others don't want consequences & the gameplay associated with it, they just want to be able to do whatever they want then dock as if nothing happened.

Fortunately there's a bit of wriggle room between the two extremes, which is where I'm aiming. To be able to kill the unkillable.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/7tgcst/atr_are_to_easy/?utm_source=reddit-android

Nothing will.

All this new C&P did is to separate ganking ships from legit pvp ships, which will mean that we are going to have ships DEDICATED TO MURDER instead of whats right now which is general PvP outfitted ships.

A hot ship cannot use the services of a station which means it has to have a scoop and A rated fsd which is not min maxed for pvp.
Legit pvp cant happen with this ship untill bounties are paid, but guess what, this ship will still be able to gank anything that moves.

Congrats fdev, you created a bigger monster instead of killing it.

Cant wait for 3.0

Burn.
You killed them, so what? even if you 'can' kill a single one alone, they are supposed to scale, add that this post does not show what type of atr it is, OR how long it took to kill.

And if you are spending time killing the ATR, that is time you are not spending attacking other players and such, so even if they can be destroyed they are serving the purpose they seem to be there for? and it does make griefing more troublesome, and that is really all you can do, you can NEVER stop it, all you can do is make it have a hefty cost in time/in game money.
 
You killed them, so what? even if you 'can' kill a single one alone, they are supposed to scale, add that this post does not show what type of atr it is, OR how long it took to kill.

And if you are spending time killing the ATR, that is time you are not spending attacking other players and such, so even if they can be destroyed they are serving the purpose they seem to be there for? and it does make griefing more troublesome, and that is really all you can do, you can NEVER stop it, all you can do is make it have a hefty cost in time/in game money.

There's more detail & a couple of vids in this thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/402847-First-ATR-Kill-Didn-t-SJA-say-these-where-good

I agree it seems to be an effective distraction, but the Cmdr can jump away & return to continue whatever they were doing until the get bored.

I put up a proposal to close this loophole here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/404241-The-final-straw-to-break-the-camel-s-back
 
Some won't, you're right. Others don't want consequences & the gameplay associated with it, they just want to be able to do whatever they want then dock as if nothing happened.

Fortunately there's a bit of wriggle room between the two extremes, which is where I'm aiming. To be able to kill the unkillable.

I don't have issues with having to sneak around anarchic systems to repair and reload. I do it now.

You know, the people getting ganked could... I don't know.. take steps to make them not one shot targets?

There's a reason I survive. I pay attention.
I've built my ships to get away.

Doesn't matter if its my EXP Asp or my trade Cutter. You're going to have a hard time collecting a kill on them.

But alas, people want to fly lightweight hull, no shield and not get killed. Not much you can do for people that can't even help themselves.
 
But alas, people want to fly lightweight hull, no shield and not get killed. Not much you can do for people that can't even help themselves.

You are right here too, some want to have no consequence (or much less at least). Like you, I build to survive, preferably using speed an agility, but if not then being able to tank damage. Either way the ship is only as good as it's pilot though, and clearly some practice combat more than others.

I have little sympathy for the complaining player who did not consider the consequences of their actions, for me (and you as well I guess) the consequences are (or should be) as much a part of the game as the activity itself.

Trade between safe systems, make money more slowly & have a bit of a boring time, vs go for a more profitable but riskier run.
Spend an hour in a RES with a Corvette yawning while Eagles pop around you, or go into a CZ in an Adder & see how long you can last.

But I don't blame those players or think they are playing wrong (apart from the complaining part), they will learn & act differently in future. In the same way that a ganker might want to 'teach them a lesson' in combat, I want to teach the ganker a lesson in survival. Maybe they'll enjoy it, maybe they'll enjoy it as much as the players they kill enjoy being killed :)
 
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