New Crime & Punishment Will Be Broken If You Fly with CRIMES OFF

[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
Riverside said:
In the example the OP states it would have shown the other player shot first, had it been switched on. This is the sequence of events:

One clean player sh oots at another, this event is not recorded as a crime (it should have been).
The aggrieved player (the OP) returns fire but it is recorded as the first shot and so marked as a criminal act.

It doesn't need to be a long list ;)
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Ok 1st off in a rare turn of events I am with OP on this in general.... but it is objectively correct that report crimes does NOT assign blame. IF I have a 100 credit bounty and you have a 1 million bounty and open fire on me, a generic "crime " is reported. Fuzz show up and if they happen to scan me 1st they will attack me even if it were you who attacked me and even if you have the worse bounty.

It is why even me as a clean victims getting my backside kicked sometimes find myself getting scanned before the police engage (ie they scan me, I am clean, then I dunno if they scan the other ship or just presume guilt at that point.... But they ALWAYS scan 1st unless shot at
 
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Riverside

Riverside
Mad Mike said:
Ok 1st off in a rare turn of events I am with OP on this in general.... but it is objectively correct that report crimes does NOT assign blame. IF I have a 100 credit bounty and you have a 1 million bounty and open fire on me, a generic "crime " is reported. Fuzz show up and if they happen to scan me 1st they will attack me even if it were you who attacked me and even if you have the worse bounty.

It is why even me as a clean victims getting my backside kicked sometimes find myself getting scanned before the police engage (ie they scan me, I am clean, then I dunno if they scan the other ship or just presume guilt at that point.... But they ALWAYS scan 1st unless shot at
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In your example you are both wanted. I can see maybe the police should engage you both, not sure I see the logic in them leaving you alone. You are not a clean victim if you have a 100Cr bounty, you are only clean if you have no local bounty.
 

John Xenir

John Xenir
Schmack said:
The system isn't a switch to turn all crimes off. It just turns off crimes against you. Your ship doesn't discern intent, it only reports attack or it doesn't report attack.

This doesn't seem so difficult to me. The galaxy isn't customized to each player.
(...)
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I wholeheartedly agree.
Crime reporting system is there simply to allow two friends to have some fun without invoking NPC police response.
As such, it works under two conditions:
- that two players agree to a duel;
- that two players then follow through and both disengage crime reporting.

Scenarios like the one described by OP show that while the system serves its purpose when all conditions are met, it unfortunately has unforeseen results in other situations.
It does warrant investigation and addressing, and community has already proposed alternatives.


Schmack said:
(...)
Can't happen that way if the 1st attack was unreported. To the system authority, the 1st attack didn't exist so then there could be no "you deserve it".
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This - in my opinions - shows how flawed current implementation is, not that it's right.
There's been a solution proposed.
 

Crank Larson

Crank Larson
John Xenir said:
Scenarios like the one described by OP show that while the system serves its purpose when all conditions are met, it unfortunately has unforeseen results in other situations.
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They're not unforeseen. We know what the results will be in every situation. The question is whether you like it or not. :)
 

John Xenir

John Xenir
Crank Larson said:
They're not unforeseen. We know what the results will be in every situation. The question is whether you like it or not. :)
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The amount of bugs that still require ironing out (some going back to beta) directly proves that:
1) unforeseen results do happen;
2) not every result is known;
3) it takes time for Frontier to address issues.

In light of above three points, it's irrelevant if I like the outcome or not. What is relevant is Frontier's response clearly stating if what OP has experienced is a flaw, or not, and how it aligns to the revamped C&P system.
Then there's case of what they're going to do with it, but that's another story ;)
 

Maro-Val

Maro-Val
The OP has a valid point and it should be clear by now, after all those pages. Takes a simple solution that brakes nothing and doesnt affect anyones playstyle.

Why mr Anderson, why, why, why are you fighting, do you even know?

[video=youtube_share;3YC7TMi0l68]https://youtu.be/3YC7TMi0l68[/video]
 

jasonbarron

jasonbarron
kofeyh said:
It's not a perfect system. And maybe people should have thought about that, before demanding contextless punishment. But here we are.
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You've made this proposition several times in this thread, so I'm just picking this particular one to quote as it seems like your point is that "we asked for it": not one legitimate, credible PvPer ever asked for this. Not once, not twice, not ever. Literally no one who enjoys PvP. In fact, PvPers (such as myself) pointed out that this would eventually end up being a dreadful addition to the game, functioning as a wet blanket for "clean PvPers" and wicked useful tool for trolls.

If "they asked for it" it sure wasn't me or anyone in my circle.
 

The Replicated Man

T
You guys do realize if someone switches crimes on or off, A message shows up like: WARNING CMDR Replicant is deactivating their system security link. The message is visible to anyone in the instance. Only thing that sucks is if I de-instanced by jumping or dropping somewhere, the people in the NEW instance wouldnt know i just flicked the switch moments prior. Its a personal preference really.

OP I wouldn't complain, I understand you are trying to be honorable in leaving them off when fighting in pvp but there are some out there (like these 2 CMDRS in this instance) who will leave them on. It's just how the system works and has worked for 3 years.
 

DaveB

DaveB
John Xenir said:
...clearly not working as intended...
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It is absolutely working as intended and as designed.

Turning this feature on opts out of the laws protection. Completely, including the cover it provides you for acting in self-defense. It's all or nothing.

If you are under the laws protection your attackers gain a bounty, the cops turn up to try and claim it and you have an affirmative defense for returning fire so are not charged with a crime yourself. If you have chosen to NOT be under the laws protection, none of those things happen - which includes no longer having the right to return fire in cases of self-defense.
 

Martian Successor

Martian Successor
Maro-Val said:
The OP has a valid point and it should be clear by now, after all those pages. Takes a simple solution that brakes nothing and doesnt affect anyones playstyle.

Why mr Anderson, why, why, why are you fighting, do you even know?

https://youtu.be/3YC7TMi0l68
Click to expand...
Sums up this thread since the first couple pages quite nicely. I still have no idea why some people are so dead set on punishing self defence just because players who enjoy PvP want to leave themselves open for honourable PvP without being trolled.
 

Riverside

Riverside
Martian Successor said:
Sums up this thread since the first couple pages quite nicely. I still have no idea why some people are so dead set on punishing self defence just because players who enjoy PvP want to leave themselves open for honourable PvP without being trolled.
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Being trolled is part of many aspects of the game, probably schadenfreude.
 

Martian Successor

Martian Successor
Riverside said:
Being trolled is part of many aspects of the game, probably schadenfreude.
Click to expand...
And that's why so many of the game's problems persist for so long, because everyone is too busy enjoying the misfortune of their "sworn forum enemies" instead of seeing a problem, getting the problem fixed asap, moving on to the next problem. We'd have a much healtheir and better game for it if we just got on with fixing problems rather than purposefully obfuscating so that our "ideological nemeses" may continue to be inconvenienced that tiny bit longer.

A kindergarten could be convinced to pull together for everyone's benefit sooner than this community of *quote* 'adults', *end quote*.
 

DaveB

DaveB
John Xenir said:
Well then, in that case it's my opinion against yours. Let's wait for FDev's opinion on this - at least it'll be final, shall we? :)
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We could and if you want to, that's fine. But since it's working exactly as they've always described it as working, I think you're on slightly more shaky ground with your assertion that it is not as designed or that the design is not working how they intend it to. Whether they think you've got a point that it should have been designed differently is an entirely separate question, but if that's the opinion you're presenting don't destroy your credibility by asserting that it's a bug.
 

Mrat13

M
You were stupid for turning it off....

What you've experienced, is something called consequences.....

What exactly went through your head that made you turn it off anyway? Piracy? Where you don't want cops if someone shoots you? When if they are a trader, they'll have it on anyway, making the point moot.....

Please explain.
 

Maro-Val

Maro-Val
Mrat said:
You were stupid for turning it off....

What you've experienced, is something called consequences.....

What exactly went through your head that made you turn it off anyway? Piracy? Where you don't want cops if someone shoots you? When if they are a trader, they'll have it on anyway, making the point moot.....

Please explain.
Click to expand...

I think someone else is stupid for missing the point of the thread.
 

John Xenir

John Xenir
DaveB said:
We could and if you want to, that's fine. But since it's working exactly as they've always described it as working, I think you're on slightly more shaky ground with your assertion that it is not as designed or that the design is not working how they intend it to. (...)
Click to expand...

I have ever since rephrased my thesis.
I'll repeat for you: in a scenario it was created for, it works perfectly as it should.
But in other scenarios, it clearly contradicts the whole idea of C&P.

DaveB said:
(...)Whether they think you've got a point that it should have been designed differently is an entirely separate question, but if that's the opinion you're presenting don't destroy your credibility by asserting that it's a bug.
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First of all, in neither of my posts have I said this is a bug. How about you don't run around trying to argue with statements you've put in my mouth?
Following my sentence from the first quote, I said clearly it works in a scenario it was designed for, so I don't know how you jumped to a conclusion that I said it should work differently.

That said, if this system's effects bleed into other combat scenarios, creating effects that directly contradict the whole C&P system, then I don't know how it doesn't warrant investigation.
You're not supposed to fire upon clean pilots without consequences. PERIOD.

The fact they have crime reporting system turned off, as a left-over of duels with their friends, is indicative of this system being in opposition to C&P system, and creating undesired effects.
If that doesn't warrant redesign, the I don't know what does.
 
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