Do frontier still play their game?

[Kubicide]

Your points are well taken and the evidence in Elite's design and implementation is quite clear.

Even if Frontier employees do play at times, there is something larger at work. That is a culture of mediocrity where good enough and a minimally viable product is delivered.

Clearly the devs are talented, and Frontier has done some things very well -- the physical simulation, visual and auditory effects, flight and combat. Support is amazing. And as has been shown with Dove Enigma, a praiseworthy heart.

But something is deeply wrong in the corporate culture when powerplay, engineers, multicrew, missions, mining, exploration, the economy, storage, etc. is so deeply flawed as a matter of choice.

Saddens me.

Yep, saddens me to.

OP answer is no, they don't. Never really have. If they did we wouldn't have the mess that we have today,

 

[Majic-12]

All this seems to be an elaborate way of complaining about the game while gratuitously straw-manning the developers.

Criticism is by no means in short supply around here, and is openly welcomed by Frontier.

There's no need to be cagey about it.

 

[kofeyh]

But something is deeply wrong in the corporate culture when powerplay, engineers, multicrew, missions, mining, exploration, the economy, storage, etc. is so deeply flawed as a matter of choice.

They weren't part of what Braben sold, because Braben sold an idea, alone. A game that can play itself. A nostalgic reimagining of a game. We were never a relevant part of the story; which is able to tell itself without our input. Players are a nuisance; little more.

Sandy had to invent the rest. Don't be too hard on him.

 

[Riktar]

I'm more curious about the mounting evidence, not any conclusions or judgements:

David Braben has given up, evidence:
- He certainly hasn't flown a type 10. Any sane boss with 1/2 a care to anything ranging from public image of quality and ownership of their baby would have sent that back and said not good enough (to the external model).
- Related, he hasn't bought and equipped a cosmetic store ship kit either. These are pretty janky at best, and yet are proposing to earn the premium microtransaction revenue. If my business was selling something, id be more interested in making sure the good/premium/expensive offering had a bit more care.
- Both those points are guess are examples of recent new output at a lower quality than usual.
- The beige balls from the last patch probably imply he hasn't played in even longer (or decided himself to wait for the fix before starting again).

Sandro Sammarco doesnt, evidence:
- He's already started a few times the design is done to (requirements document) bullet points.
- All the issues that have come up with anything in the beta are to do with lack of consideration of GAMEPLAY (past and future). Makes so much sense.

Edward Lewis doesnt, but thats forgiven by standard industry practice, i can't think of any company online stream rep that claims to be a player of the game they're mc'ing.

I haven't seen enough of them, but Dav Stott and Steve Kirby have spoken like they do play the game. Much respect.

Ending: overall i don't have any issues with frontier overall, once overthinking stops they are the best developer in the industry in this temporal moment. But it makes you wonder sometimes.

Curious how you cite evidence over conclusions or judgements and yet when I read your post, I see nothing of the former and a bunch of the latter.

But as to your question: I don't know since I am not living or working with them. But considering the passion you can (still) sense in the way they talk about the game when being interviewed leads me to believe that they still care about the game and that (for myself anyway) is what's most important.

And before I get "White knight" labeled: I have plenty of concerns and criticism's of ED. But whether the creator or upper management of the game are playing it is not one of them.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

But whether the creator or upper management of the game are playing it is not one of them.

The reason for the original post was that i think this is actually critical. The elite team is around 100 strong? In that kind of environment, no one apart from upper management has the authority to cause change of the collective effort. Out of politeness to your peers (sometimes) and cost, its usually difficult for a non senior voice to go and effect the work of another person or team in larger environments. It just doesn't happen. So if senior people don't have a stake in it.. practically its very hard to effect changes like that.. especially as in creative environments at least the external content we see is subjective.

Yeah the devs all seem quite passionate so, good on em.

 

[Majic-12]

I honestly don't understand why some think this isn't a legit question.

Nothing wrong with questions, just answering them falsely on behalf of the developers.

Much like making false assumptions about other players, as in this case.

 

[Iron Duke]

All this seems to be an elaborate way of complaining about the game while gratuitously straw-manning the developers.

Criticism is by no means in short supply around here, and is openly welcomed by Frontier.

There's no need to be cagey about it.

Constructive criticism is welcome as this helps improve the game through gainful discourse. However, adding condiments (salt in this case), does nothing to help any issue.

 

[Majic-12]

Oh your problem is that he "answered" for the devs. Ok gotcha, fair enough.

Well heck, if we're going to be fair, I could have expressed myself a little less cryptically.

We all have our complaints about the game, and woe betide me were I ever to presume to give anyone grief for sharing them when I'm quite fond of doing so myself.

What I find unnecessary is relying upon the conceit of speculating about or speaking for the developers when what's really at issue are differences of opinion about the design or execution of the game itself.

There are plenty of (in my opinion, anyway, though it's not for me to decide in the first place) valid criticisms of Elite: Dangerous to be found in this thread, throughout the forums and all around the Internet as well, and personally, I find the fact that so many people are passionate enough about the game to offer all that criticism to be quite reassuring.

Which is my point. There's no need for a puppet show.

We as customers and players have quite enough authority to speak for ourselves, and more power to us all.

 

[Riktar]

The reason for the original post was that i think this is actually critical. The elite team is around 100 strong? In that kind of environment, no one apart from upper management has the authority to cause change of the collective effort. Out of politeness to your peers (sometimes) and cost, its usually difficult for a non senior voice to go and effect the work of another person or team in larger environments. It just doesn't happen. So if senior people don't have a stake in it.. practically its very hard to effect changes like that.. especially as in creative environments at least the external content we see is subjective.

Yeah the devs all seem quite passionate so, good on em.

Fair point. While I can't say (again, I don't work with or live with the higher ups) if they play the game or not, I am convinced that David Braben wants to make the best game possible. And who knows? Maybe he is so wrapped up the game development that he only has time for "testing" game features rather than experiencing the game as a whole by casual/dedicated playing of it.

While this may not be the best analogy, I do not expect the owner (if their even is such a thing anymore) or upper management of a car company to take the time to drive a particular model of car that I drive so that they understand my concerns about the car.

And again, I do understand the point of your post. I was just pointing out the "evidence" vs "conjecture" aspect of the original post.

You have my sincere apology if I came off sounding like a jerk. I do tend to react/reply too quickly at times.

 

[koop26]

All this seems to be an elaborate way of complaining about the game while gratuitously straw-manning the developers.

Criticism is by no means in short supply around here, and is openly welcomed by Frontier.

There's no need to be cagey about it.

Yeah this whole thread is a really weird way to complain about the game. Just make a complaint thread, because empty speculating about devs playing or not is just awkward. Why not take a break from the game for awhile?

 

[tomalus]

Im sure the OP after he finish work,comes home and starts working again in his free time. [big grin]

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Strange OP. But yes, the devs play the game.

And two of them (at least) are coming on Distant Worlds 2!

 

[babelfisch]

Ya I get it. I usually just ignore the obvious exaggerations or whatever and try to see the point they are trying to make. I mean the OP obviously hasn't been watching the devs every minute of every day to see how often they are playing. It's mostly just conjecture. But the point he's making is pretty valid. I do understand your issue with it though it does not personally bother me. My pet peeve is when people like the OP get attacked by the same people who jump from thread to thread. They claim to be just adding their own opinion, but it almost always includes some snipe about whiners, crybabies, trolls, etc. Same names in every criticism thread trying to shout down the naysayers. Super annoying.

So because you always ignore obvious exaggerations you always call FDEV utterly and complete incompetent and everyone who likes something about the game is a stupid fanboy and white knight, even though they quite often provide criticism themselves? Makes sense.

 

[babelfisch]

Here we go again.
The game is far buggier than most games. The devs KNOWINGLY let known bugs slip into live code with a "we'll get to it later". I never said completely and utterly incompetent, you are exaggerating to make a point. I DID say they were incompetent. They are not performing their job to a standard that I find acceptable. They are taking double the amount of time estimated by the project manager, producing only part of what they originally planned, and even the stuff they are getting done is incomplete, unbalanced, and extremely buggy. That is not up to acceptable standards in my opinion. That's incompetence, literally by definition.

It's not meant to be a PERSONAL insult to the devs. It's commenting on the quantity and quality of what they are producing. It's AN OPINION. And the you come in and start the personal attacks because you don't agree. And when I get snarky back, you don't understand why I'm being mean to you or whatever. The mods can ban me if they think I've crossed the line. It's not for you to come and and start slinging personal attacks. You stick to what you want to say and leave me to what I want to say. How about that?

Which personal attack are you talking about? So far you are the one insulting me all the time.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You're polite and constructive towards the devs, sure. You're a complete jerk to anyone you don't agree with. Show me one instance in this thread were someone crossed the line. The first name-calling I see in this thread is this:

And then this:


But of course since they are "defending the devs" they are the good guys and the forum rules do not apply to them. Call them out for name calling though and you get an infraction yourself.

So when have I been a jerk to someone who doesnt agree with me? I would like to see that.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Nah, you don't use those words. You just strongly imply them with a superior tone. Guys like you are usually the ones starting the arguments and problems. But hey, the people you insult are being critical of some aspect of the game, so it's alright. Don't pretend you are the polite one and others are the rude ones. You are just as rude, and your rudeness is almost always what causes the others to start getting rude in response. You're right about people not usually attacking unless it's in response to an attack. This thread had some people disagreeing, but not really any name-calling or problems until Eagleboy came in and started calling the OP a troll.

I don't imply it either with a superior tone. I am just as polite as possible, but on occasions I have bitten the bait and gotten annoyed when the insults start flying my way. That is the only time I get annoyed, because I have been attacked, so attack back. But a lot of the time I just let it go as I have better things to do with my life.

You are attacking me in this thread by blatantly lying about me.

 

[babelfisch]

Really dude?!? You call people pathetic whiners. You accuse people of presenting their opinions as fact, even when the post you are quoting literally says it's just an opinion. You're always trying to prove people wrong when you don't agree with them. You can't just let a comment go by you don't agree with without some sort of backhanded insult to the person who made it. You know what...forget it. You're back on ignore. It's not ever worth arguing about.

I'm here talking on the topic of the OP. You, Max Factor, Eagleboy and a few others have had nothing to say about the topic being discussed. You come in and go right to talking crap about the people. THAT is my problem with you.

Nice that you are now making stuff up about me.

 

[Majic-12]

Ya I get it. I usually just ignore the obvious exaggerations or whatever and try to see the point they are trying to make. I mean the OP obviously hasn't been watching the devs every minute of every day to see how often they are playing. It's mostly just conjecture. But the point he's making is pretty valid. I do understand your issue with it though it does not personally bother me. My pet peeve is when people like the OP get attacked by the same people who jump from thread to thread. They claim to be just adding their own opinion, but it almost always includes some snipe about whiners, crybabies, trolls, etc. Same names in every criticism thread trying to shout down the naysayers. Super annoying.

I know the syndrome, and shame on me if I come off that way.

"Protecting" the game by attacking critics is really just protecting one's own ego and insecurities. Just because the game isn't perfect doesn't mean we're fools for loving it.

And for the record, I love this game. Deeply. Romantically.

There's always room for improvement, it's infinitely better to know why customers are unhappy than to wonder where they all went after they leave, and discouraging players from giving honest feedback is far more toxic than any in-game griefing could possibly begin to approach.

So when the temptation arises to shout each other down, it's never a bad idea to remember why we're all here.

And as soon as anyone figures that out, please be sure to pass it along.

 

[MahdDogg]

Interestingly, an inability to empathize with another person's feelings is indicative of a sociopathic pathology.

Interestingly, the delusion that one has the ability to identify personality disorders and psychiatric illness after reading a few sentences in a forum post is called "being a moron"

 

[Rock-Hermit]

Interestingly, the delusion that one has the ability to identify personality disorders and psychiatric illness after reading a few sentences in a forum post is called "being a moron"

+1

Whoa, holed below the waterline