Where Elite Went Wrong, or: How NOT to craft a Sandbox Experience

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Could you do a little experiment for me?

Could you go to one of these systems you'd like to influence and have a look at the population and note down that number, then look at yourself and note down the number 1.

What's the ratio of you vs the population, so we can assess what would be a realistic level of influence you could have?
Realistically, that number (of people you can influence) would be somewhere in the few hundreds or that ballpark thereof - (the size of a ship crew, hmmmm?) - of course, that's the scale which is not being modelled in any way by the simulation in ED and I'm pretty sure that was (at least partly) OP's point. If you're looking for interpersonal rather than interfactional dramas that can be influenced by player intervention there is not much of that to be found in ED.

Sure there are all these nearly identical, generic factions dynamically losing and gaining influence or whatever but I find it very hard to be emotionally attached to, or moved by their triumphs and failures. That's because those factions are remote, and disconnected from anything my character does in the game. In particular, they are tied to, and rooted in localities (systems, stations) whilst my character is an interstellar tramp. What reason on earth would my character have to get involved in the local politics of some system, when there are thousands of similar systems in the galaxy and you can easily jump between any one of them if you happen to not like one of them for whatever reason? Leaving a system is always by orders of magnitude easier than flipping a system and so I see little reason to care, either in gameplay mechanics sense or in RP terms. I think a lot of people feel the same way about the BGS.
 
So what's the percentage of NPCs shown in the game?

Dunno, ask Frontier - but we know it's only a tiny fraction.

Precisely. Think of it like small-scale CGs with clear progression.

That's coming next update.


You're right, allow me to rephrase: stop looking through glasses of someone having God complex, thinking everyone else has the same complex ;)

Nobody's doing that. They're simply pointing out that the level of influence that some people are demanding is a bit OTT and ill-considered. One player doesn't swing a market of billions.

Now you're being will fully ignorant.
ROTFLMAO! Mr weekly BGS tick ;)

We just want our actions to have consequences. On the local or personal level. Like crime bosses who remember we stole from them, or smuggled goods for them. Who hunt us down, or send us personal, private jobs.

Ah a bit more personal narrative just like FDev have said they're working on with chained missions etc. Yes they've said they're working on that.

But because it's not happening and fdven have not even TRIED to make it happen, you excuse these simple things by erecting an opposite extreme as a Strawman to argue against. It's tired and old and utterly transparent.

Now you're being will fully ignorant.
ROTFLMAO!
 
Emmmm! Sandbox! Elite D. is a Sandbox but not quite in the way the OP describes it. The Sandbox is in the way we as players interact with the Universe and the Factions within it. I would like to own my own Station and then have a system where players can earn a permit to Visit my Station. You would have to employ Fed, Empire, Allance to police it for you but that is possible with station upkeep fees.

Maybe I am looking at it through rose tinted spectacles.
 
I wish I could go fishing aside one of the lakes on the moon of Sycondris VII. If this were a real sand box, I could do it. I could set up a tent, infront of my Clipper, and cook the fish I catch. Then sell it on as a delicatessen at Eravate for Mikhail Chengchekov who buys them in a 100,000cr a pop.

Instead, I'm hauling poo; for rep :(

That's nothing. This is a terrible sandbox because i can't build a toilet on a raft on a water world and take a poo in the ocean!
 
And if we always had the option to choose high risk delivery missions that guaranteed an interdiction, both cremates could jump in SLFs to defend the ship.

But why would the trader hang around after interdiction instead of just high-waking? I get the scenarios you are painting, and they'd be great, but the entire game isnt set up for it.For multicrew to be of value as protection for traders, you need to be interdiction much more indeed. But you also need to be forced to engage. As long as you can submit & jump, there is no incentive to do anything else as a trader. Running is less risk and more profit.
 
It's not as simple as the binary either/or argument you present here.

There are facets if Elite I enjoy immensely. Flying ships is excellent. Elite may be the only game where in a spaceship is more than a weightless floating camera with guns attached. Flight, sound and visual presentation are unparalleled.

Likewise, combat is excellent. It's visceral and challenging. It needs to go faster than it does - time to kill is a bit high on larger ships - but it's quite good.

Unfortunately, the remainder of the game is sorely, visibly lacking. It has so much potential, but it's wasted on numbers grinding. Almost no opportunity exists for emergent game play, there's very little to explore and discover despite the enormity of the Galaxy and nothing has context or consequences.

I'd just like the game outside of flight and Combat, to be as good as those parts are. And I hope it gets there. But it's not likely, without a change in design philosophy.

You're absoloutly right, and if you read my post, you will see that i acknowledged i have issues with the game.

I also point out i don't feel the need to start weekly threads on why i think the game has problems.

The game has its pluses and minuses. Like many games. Either you play it or you don't. If you have constructive criticism to give to the devs, give it.

I don't see anything really constructive in your OP because its largely a case of wanting FD to make a different game from what they are making.

Not to mention its your typical Blackcompany thread, explaining why the devs are wrong and you are right.
 
That's nothing. This is a terrible sandbox because i can't build a toilet on a raft on a water world and take a poo in the ocean!

Hah that's not a real sandbox - I should be able to invent my own wireless communications network and write a bestselling recipe book for my Scyondris VII fish, publish it via a player run printing press then be able to sabotage it by sleeping with the press-bosses's wife and filling her ears with eels!

THEN THEN it would be a sandbox.

I mean I've been in a real life sandbox - you might think it's just sand but you're wrong!
 
Like crime bosses who remember we stole from them, or smuggled goods for them. Who hunt us down, or send us personal, private jobs.

Your rep goes down when you steal from a faction. When it goes too low, you get people send after you. You can also get people send after you if you assassinate someone. If your rep is high enough you can get additional jobs offered to you in SC.

I agree it can be presented even better, but all the stuff you just asked for already exists.
 
Well... here's a couple handy links:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/382797-HGE-where-art-thou

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...llecting_engineer_materials_without_actively/

... and countless others. Google the mats you need. There's a lot of advice on obtaining them, and none of them made me shoot another ship to obtain.

M8 your "handy links" don't even come close to the level of knowledge I have collected on how to best find those mats through countless hours on google. It's not an issue of I don't know how to, I have tried dozens of different HGE spawning rituals, I have tested my own as well. I have memorized the sonar signature of BCs, Metallic Meteorites, Mesosiderite, outrcops and metallic outcrops. I know what grades of material all of these spawn regularly as well as what sorts of rare drops you can get from them. I have recovering from SRV spin down to a science. It's not a matter of I don't know how to get these materials, it's a matter of there is only one way to get them. That's the problem me and op have with the current system. There is NO way to get HGE mats without sitting in SC for hours. There is no way to get most elements without surface prospecting. That is the problem.
 
This is not a salt post.

By now we have all heard the "Mile Wide, Inch Deep" description of Elite. But I want to say a few words about WHY we here it so much, common rebuttals and why they are (objectively) wrong.

===================
Hand Holding vs. the Sandbox
===================

Well, Elite doesnt hold your hand. We have all heard it. What is perhaps the number 1 rebuttal of the "inch deep" claim. But the problem is, no one is asking for hand holding. Quite the opposite, in fact. People are asking for something to do, and something WITH which to do it.

Consider a child in an actual, real sandbox. Put them in, and they will just sort of...sit there. Maybe kick the sand around a bit. But a child in an empty sandbox isnt going to get their hands dirty doing nothing. So throw in a bunch of really cool looking statues and static objects for the child to navigate between, and watch them...still sit there, now looking at YOU like the idiot you have proven yourself to be.

But throw in a shovel, a bucket and maybe a rake or two. Add a couple of other buckets...perhaps in different shapes...and watch the child go nuts with joy. They will play with those toys, because those toys allow them to SHAPE the sand. With such powerful tools, the child can leave an indelible impression upon the sandbox. They can make their mark, and see the results of their actions with their own two eyes. It is this ability to shape the contents of a sandbox to one's own whims that makes a sandbox so compelling, and it is this that Elite lacks.

Elite has sand. It has static objects around which that sand is piled. Those static objects are gorgeous. And getting from one to the other of them is even mostly fun and engaging. All of which is good...for a short while. But until - and more worryingly, unless - Frontier see fit to allow us to actually shape the sand in ways we can see and experience, its not going to matter. Because a game calling itself a sandbox while refusing to allow players to actually play with the sand, wont last long. It will gain players sporadically, and lose them quickly, once they realize just how off limits the sand in the box really is to their influence - and we have seen this already, with massive refunds following sales, and steady declines in the player base following purchasing periods such as the holidays.

tl;dr - Sandboxes: If you want people to enjoy a sandbox, you have to give them methods for interacting with the sand in ways that are clearly reflected, visible and affecting to their experience. The more unique to each participant the shaping, the more appeal your sandbox experience offers. Elite is severely lacking in this regard.


====================
Rebuttal - What about the BGS
====================

What about it? Even if one has the patience to wait on Elite's once weekly, manually induced "tic" it changes nothing. Alter all the systems you wish; your player experience might change superficially, if at all. A few different missions on the board. And...that's basically it. Nothing you do will change. Nothing you see or experience while out flying is in any way altered by altering the BGS...if you can fathom how to do it without spending entire nights "playing" the game using Alt+Tab and websites as opposed to, you know...the game itself. Good luck in your futile quest for influence over your own play experience in this "sandbox" environment. Whose sand is in fact glued to the floor, and completely unavailable for influence by you, the observer.


=========================
Rebuttal - You just dont Put in the Effort
=========================

If by effort, you mean endless nights of performing the same rote tasks while watching Netflix on my second monitor, you're right. I dont put in that. But "effort" isnt the word you are looking for time. That word, is time. Dont conflate time spent with effort. They are not even remotely the same thing.


=======================
Loot and Elite - Why its Not Working
=======================

People love loot, right? I mean, play the game, get rewards. That's a fun game play loop. Works all the time.

Why, then, is it NOT fun and engaging in Elite? I mean, Skyrim players LOVED obtaining material for crafting their "modules." So...why do Elite players NOT enjoy it nearly as much?

Easy: Skyrim awarded you for playing the game. Your own way. For shaping the sand in the sandbox to the greatest extent possible in the ways you wanted to shape it with the tools on hand. Tools including mods, of course. In Skyrim, a Stealth character, a warrior...even a mage or trader/explorer can obtain the materials needed to craft rewarding loot, by playing the game the way they choose to play it.

Moreover, they can ALSO obtain rewarding loot simply by playing. No go betweens. No time sinks. No delays. Kill enemies, get cool and immediately useful stuff. Condensing the loop to the minimum number of steps required to provide a fun feedback loop remains, after all this time, a smart play.

Unfortunately, Elite does NOT reward you for playing the game your way. Want to be a trader? An Explorer? Strictly a miner or combat pilot? You are going to miss out on key materials needed to improve your ships. Period. Because certain mats are locked behind mandatory play styles, playing your way means missing out on content.

And this is why people were just fine with needing to level every sword and shield in Skyrim from Tier 1 to the highest tier, one at a time...while (rightly) despising the same system in Elite. Because Skyrim awarded those players for playing their way, while Elite punishes them for doing the same.

While Skyrim awarded both the Stealthy thief/assassin and the fierce warrior with the materials they needed for high end weapons, Elite punishes strict combat or trader or role players by withholding key materials in a desperate attempt to justify play styles that otherwise would turn out to be the wasted dev time they in fact were. If people wanted to do it, you wouldnt need to make them do it.

Elite needs to provide all players with methods for obtaining the mats they require. Reliably. Regularly. Skyrim does this, and people love it. Elite...does not. And the Broker bandaid is not a solution for this broken design. Its an insignificant step in the right direction...but its also a tiny bandage over a gaping, festering wound of poor design. This needs to be rectified.

tl;dr - Loot Is Not Fun in Elite because Elite punishes players by forcing them to play in ways they dont want to. This is anathema for a sandbox game. Its a death sentence for a game like this. Play Your Way isnt just the appeal of Elite. Its the primary appeal. The main reason a lot of people enjoy the game. Rob players of this at peril to the longevity of your game.


==========
Can it Be Fixed
==========

More complicated than it sounds, whether Elite can be fixed is a...difficult, touchy question. Because it can be fixed. But not with the current design ethos.

Changing a design here and there isnt going to bail Elite out of the mess you can plainly see that it is in, if you pay attention to feedback and commentary about the game literally anywhere on the internet besides here. Because the underlying design philosophy of Elite is fundamentally opposed to good, entertaining, fun game design.

The underpinning foundation of Elite design is based on the increasingly inaccurate belief that time sinks retain players. While this might have been true in 1984, when, if you wanted a game to play, you put up with what happened to be available at the time...now, we have Steam. And Humble. And any number of Indie titles. Holiday sales. Gamers have more options now than ever before, and a whole lot of them will simply put down a boring, tedious time sink and find other games to spend their money on.

Until and unless Frontier decide that fun and compelling game play should be the focus of the game - as opposed to the occasional, happy, coincidental result of time sink design - Elite isnt going to change. And Frontier might well be fine with this. For some studios, fun is never going to be the driving force. The bottom line will always be the primary focus, and metrics, not fun, will drive design for those studios.

And those studios wont go under overnight. They may even hang around a while. Possibly even find a niche of gamers who simply like their time sinks and content themselves with living on the edge of the gaming world, feeding off the crumbs of their tiny niche of hardcore grinders. And that is fine, when those studios are honest and up front about what they are, and what they intend to do as a result.

But Frontier promised a lot more with Elite than we have received. A sandbox game. Wherein we could craft our own experiences. Hiding in other ships. Stealing them. Shaping the sand in the sandbox to craft our own unique stories. Playing our way, without missing out.

And we havent received that game. I still hope we will. But I increasingly fear that that has gotten lost in favor of grind, because grind drives easy to see metrics, while "number of players having fun" doesnt look nearly as good on investor reports.

So you wrote all that text just to elaborate and explain why Elite is not your game? Because I could write a similar text to elaborate why Elite is absolutely cool and awesome, if I would like to spend time on that. Which I don't, because I rather play or do other things.
All the points you dressed in that fancy "analysis" dress are really just your point of view.

Edit: also your idea of kids in empty sandboxes doing nothing but kicking dirt around is deeply flawed. You apparently never saw a kid in a sandbox. Tools?!? Toys?!? Bah! Hands are all they need, really.
 
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There is no way to get most elements without surface prospecting. That is the problem.

Everything you can get surface prospecting you can get through ring/asteroid mining.

But I'm sure with your spectacular level of knowledge you knew that.
 
Everything you can get surface prospecting you can get through ring/asteroid mining.

But I'm sure with your spectacular level of knowledge you knew that.

How long have you spent mining?

I've spend DAYS cumulatively mining and I have only rarely encountered certain g4 materials, and most of that was in the beta where the buffed spawn rates. Everything I have come across online also states that very rates don't spawn while mining.

In my entire experience mining I think I have probably come across less cadmium then 15 minutes of surface prospecting produces. Granted this should change in beyond, but there's still the issue of very rares not spawning while mining at all (at least as I have heard of) or at such a rare rate as to not be worth it.
 
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This is not a salt post.

By now we have all heard the "Mile Wide, Inch Deep" description of Elite. But I want to say a few words about WHY we here it so much, common rebuttals and why they are (objectively) wrong.

===================
Hand Holding vs. the Sandbox
===================

Well, Elite doesnt hold your hand. We have all heard it. What is perhaps the number 1 rebuttal of the "inch deep" claim. But the problem is, no one is asking for hand holding. Quite the opposite, in fact. People are asking for something to do, and something WITH which to do it.

Consider a child in an actual, real sandbox. Put them in, and they will just sort of...sit there. Maybe kick the sand around a bit. But a child in an empty sandbox isnt going to get their hands dirty doing nothing. So throw in a bunch of really cool looking statues and static objects for the child to navigate between, and watch them...still sit there, now looking at YOU like the idiot you have proven yourself to be.

But throw in a shovel, a bucket and maybe a rake or two. Add a couple of other buckets...perhaps in different shapes...and watch the child go nuts with joy. They will play with those toys, because those toys allow them to SHAPE the sand. With such powerful tools, the child can leave an indelible impression upon the sandbox. They can make their mark, and see the results of their actions with their own two eyes. It is this ability to shape the contents of a sandbox to one's own whims that makes a sandbox so compelling, and it is this that Elite lacks.

Elite has sand. It has static objects around which that sand is piled. Those static objects are gorgeous. And getting from one to the other of them is even mostly fun and engaging. All of which is good...for a short while. But until - and more worryingly, unless - Frontier see fit to allow us to actually shape the sand in ways we can see and experience, its not going to matter. Because a game calling itself a sandbox while refusing to allow players to actually play with the sand, wont last long. It will gain players sporadically, and lose them quickly, once they realize just how off limits the sand in the box really is to their influence - and we have seen this already, with massive refunds following sales, and steady declines in the player base following purchasing periods such as the holidays.

tl;dr - Sandboxes: If you want people to enjoy a sandbox, you have to give them methods for interacting with the sand in ways that are clearly reflected, visible and affecting to their experience. The more unique to each participant the shaping, the more appeal your sandbox experience offers. Elite is severely lacking in this regard.


====================
Rebuttal - What about the BGS
====================

What about it? Even if one has the patience to wait on Elite's once weekly, manually induced "tic" it changes nothing. Alter all the systems you wish; your player experience might change superficially, if at all. A few different missions on the board. And...that's basically it. Nothing you do will change. Nothing you see or experience while out flying is in any way altered by altering the BGS...if you can fathom how to do it without spending entire nights "playing" the game using Alt+Tab and websites as opposed to, you know...the game itself. Good luck in your futile quest for influence over your own play experience in this "sandbox" environment. Whose sand is in fact glued to the floor, and completely unavailable for influence by you, the observer.


=========================
Rebuttal - You just dont Put in the Effort
=========================

If by effort, you mean endless nights of performing the same rote tasks while watching Netflix on my second monitor, you're right. I dont put in that. But "effort" isnt the word you are looking for time. That word, is time. Dont conflate time spent with effort. They are not even remotely the same thing.


=======================
Loot and Elite - Why its Not Working
=======================

People love loot, right? I mean, play the game, get rewards. That's a fun game play loop. Works all the time.

Why, then, is it NOT fun and engaging in Elite? I mean, Skyrim players LOVED obtaining material for crafting their "modules." So...why do Elite players NOT enjoy it nearly as much?

Easy: Skyrim awarded you for playing the game. Your own way. For shaping the sand in the sandbox to the greatest extent possible in the ways you wanted to shape it with the tools on hand. Tools including mods, of course. In Skyrim, a Stealth character, a warrior...even a mage or trader/explorer can obtain the materials needed to craft rewarding loot, by playing the game the way they choose to play it.

Moreover, they can ALSO obtain rewarding loot simply by playing. No go betweens. No time sinks. No delays. Kill enemies, get cool and immediately useful stuff. Condensing the loop to the minimum number of steps required to provide a fun feedback loop remains, after all this time, a smart play.

Unfortunately, Elite does NOT reward you for playing the game your way. Want to be a trader? An Explorer? Strictly a miner or combat pilot? You are going to miss out on key materials needed to improve your ships. Period. Because certain mats are locked behind mandatory play styles, playing your way means missing out on content.

And this is why people were just fine with needing to level every sword and shield in Skyrim from Tier 1 to the highest tier, one at a time...while (rightly) despising the same system in Elite. Because Skyrim awarded those players for playing their way, while Elite punishes them for doing the same.

While Skyrim awarded both the Stealthy thief/assassin and the fierce warrior with the materials they needed for high end weapons, Elite punishes strict combat or trader or role players by withholding key materials in a desperate attempt to justify play styles that otherwise would turn out to be the wasted dev time they in fact were. If people wanted to do it, you wouldnt need to make them do it.

Elite needs to provide all players with methods for obtaining the mats they require. Reliably. Regularly. Skyrim does this, and people love it. Elite...does not. And the Broker bandaid is not a solution for this broken design. Its an insignificant step in the right direction...but its also a tiny bandage over a gaping, festering wound of poor design. This needs to be rectified.

tl;dr - Loot Is Not Fun in Elite because Elite punishes players by forcing them to play in ways they dont want to. This is anathema for a sandbox game. Its a death sentence for a game like this. Play Your Way isnt just the appeal of Elite. Its the primary appeal. The main reason a lot of people enjoy the game. Rob players of this at peril to the longevity of your game.


==========
Can it Be Fixed
==========

More complicated than it sounds, whether Elite can be fixed is a...difficult, touchy question. Because it can be fixed. But not with the current design ethos.

Changing a design here and there isnt going to bail Elite out of the mess you can plainly see that it is in, if you pay attention to feedback and commentary about the game literally anywhere on the internet besides here. Because the underlying design philosophy of Elite is fundamentally opposed to good, entertaining, fun game design.

The underpinning foundation of Elite design is based on the increasingly inaccurate belief that time sinks retain players. While this might have been true in 1984, when, if you wanted a game to play, you put up with what happened to be available at the time...now, we have Steam. And Humble. And any number of Indie titles. Holiday sales. Gamers have more options now than ever before, and a whole lot of them will simply put down a boring, tedious time sink and find other games to spend their money on.

Until and unless Frontier decide that fun and compelling game play should be the focus of the game - as opposed to the occasional, happy, coincidental result of time sink design - Elite isnt going to change. And Frontier might well be fine with this. For some studios, fun is never going to be the driving force. The bottom line will always be the primary focus, and metrics, not fun, will drive design for those studios.

And those studios wont go under overnight. They may even hang around a while. Possibly even find a niche of gamers who simply like their time sinks and content themselves with living on the edge of the gaming world, feeding off the crumbs of their tiny niche of hardcore grinders. And that is fine, when those studios are honest and up front about what they are, and what they intend to do as a result.

But Frontier promised a lot more with Elite than we have received. A sandbox game. Wherein we could craft our own experiences. Hiding in other ships. Stealing them. Shaping the sand in the sandbox to craft our own unique stories. Playing our way, without missing out.

And we havent received that game. I still hope we will. But I increasingly fear that that has gotten lost in favor of grind, because grind drives easy to see metrics, while "number of players having fun" doesnt look nearly as good on investor reports.

This whole post is 100% right and solid gold.
 
Cow excrement. Pure and simple. Find the right system, you can get loads without needing hours.

Depends on rng and the material type. You get unlucky while looking for a specific civil war material it can take a long time to get enough. Especially if you are looking to engineer more than 1 module and/or get a good roll. Same goes for any material that spawn only in systems that are in states that don't commonly occur within high pop systems.
 
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I understand where you're coming from Blackcompany, but you are still failing to present arguments to convince people that staunchly disagree with you. Some are never going to see it your way as they simply see a different game than you see. What also seems to be missing is how far the game has come and that the changes have come over time, how it is even changing this next patch. If you were to post this on release day I would 100% agree with you, but today I can only partially agree because while it still has some of the same issues it has always had, much of it is going away or the quality of life has changed. The only real problems I have right now is that there isn't much to keep me invested in the game long term and the game systems feel so separated. I come back for patches, play for a bit and I'm off to another game until another patch. To me, it's pretty normal to do that. What it would take to do the things you are expecting and to do things that would keep me invested long term just might not be doable or might take many more years to get there. There comes a certain point where you just have to accept that either your hunger cannot be sated or that Frontier can not or does not want to go in the direction you want. This leaves you two choices, adapt to those ideas or find other games to fill the void and/or forget about this one.

People often talk about imagination and there is a balance with that, because while we shouldn't be expected to just be in full imagine mode all of the time to fill development gaps and fumbles, a relatively small group of people (compared to the size of the group of players) simply does not have the time and resources to create a game that meets or exceeds what our collective imaginations can do. There are limitations in the game engine and there are limitations to the time that can be spend on trying to break through those limitations. The best you can do is come up with ideas, not by telling us how much you like Skyrim and what it did right, but by telling us how they can do what Skyrim does in a way that fits how they are designing Elite. You also have to remember that Skyrim was crafted as an offline single player experience, so they could do things that you can't do for an online multiplayer game, not in a timely manner anyway.

Personally, I never liked the term "sandbox" because that immediately tells me that it's going to be a more shallow game in which my experience of the game is dictated by what I do with the game instead of what is actually in the game. Recently that has changed a little as I have played a couple of "sandbox" MMOs that have some pretty engaging systems in them to play with. The one thing that hasn't changed though, is that I still feel that "sandbox" is synonymous with grind or time sink. I'm not sure if that can or will ever change since that's typically what keeps a lot of people playing, whether they think it's in the mind or not. Without things to progress to, many people stop playing, so it's paramount to make those goals as lofty as is practical or else all you have left are people that just enjoy hopping on for an hour to fly a spaceship around. I think that if the latter is all the game was ever supposed to be about, it could be a completely different game, but that's a different discussion altogether.

What they have done wrong with the game are things that are slowly being corrected, in my opinion, in a way that still fits their vision for Elite. That's the thing though right, opinions vs their vision for Elite. Those things are not always going to line up and it is important to remember that. It's a delicate balance, because if they just listen to what all of us have to say all the time, I promise you the game would be much worse off, there are even examples of this through things like the power creep that has been happening. I couldn't care less about multiplayer, so if you want to know where I think they went wrong the most, it's making the game online multiplayer. That is where I feel that most of the friction between ideas ends up most often. So much time spent on certain things because of how people feel these things affect their game against others. This is what we have though, so unless you have some breakthrough ideas that they haven't thought of and are able to articulate them, you have a choice, find the things you like and enjoy them as is or find another game that offers what you are looking for. Which, by the way, there is nothing wrong with playing multiple games. :)
 
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Cow excrement. Pure and simple. Find the right system, you can get loads without needing hours.

I wish it was that easy. My experience has been the same in live, tons of SC time waiting for the appropriate USS. I do google these things too, with really nothing that helps unless I want to go to things like Dav's Hope and do the mode dance. It's one of the reasons I've tried to really start focusing on the positive aspects of the Material Trader. There doesn't seem to be any magic to it, system states affect what spawns, yet upon going to those systems USS' not only inconsistently spawn, but the ones I need rarely spawn, with the materials that are supposed to be there spawning even less. So unless there is some hidden list with these 'right systems', I'm at a loss as to how some people have these materials rained upon them while others twiddle their thumbs for hours.
 
What people really want it seems is that rare things shouldn't be rare, instead they should be easily provided by pressing the right button.

So not rare.

It's rather silly really.
 
What people really want it seems is that rare things shouldn't be rare, instead they should be easily provided by pressing the right button.

So not rare.

It's rather silly really.

I'm sorry, I disagree.
People don't want rare to be less rare. People want rare to be obtained in understandable fashion.

As in: not so much relying on RNG, political state, direction in which wind blows at Sagittarius A* and whether you should've turned left in Albuquerque.
Too much randomness makes it more of a hit-and-miss, which frankly sucks.
 
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