Where Elite Went Wrong, or: How NOT to craft a Sandbox Experience

[THE BLOB]

I love elite but my biggest gripe is to upgrade my FSD I have to use the buggy to get arsenic which to me is not a part off elite that I don't enjoy. Being able to collect said pain in the arsenic from asteroids would be nice. And if any Cmdr's know where to find it in asteroids I would be eternally greatfull �� . As an 80s elite player I love flying not driving an srv. As I only now play in VR now it's not comfortable. So In that case I agree I cannot play my way without missing out on engendered modules in some shape or form

Rob

 

[jasonbirder]

To the people that are frustrated that ED doesn't offer players the ability to significantly and immediately affect the wider environment...
Two problems...firstly rapid changes mean that other people don't have the opportunity to do the same things as you..."Go kill the Pirate Lord...ooops he's already dead" "Go Scan these ancient ruins...ooops someones already scanned them" etc etc...Elite has to be able to offer players the same opportunities even if they're playing the game later...or at a different pace...
Secondly...give players the opportunity to significantly impact the Universe and you end up with a sh*tbox NOT a sandbox...

 

[Urbanski101]

This is incorrect on a number of levels.

2) Station announcers change, stations change lighting and marker text. Security levels can change (certainly when involving an anarchy). Black markets may open or close. Particular commodities become legal or illegal. Some ships may or may not be available. Certain states shut down mission board and outfitting, nav beacons can get compromised or uncompromised, etc.
4) You can see here: https://eddb.io/faction and sort on Controlling. The top 10 factions in the game all rule over 30+ systems. That only happens because of concerted and sustained focused player activity

Well gentlemen, I'm proud to announce that after 10,000+ hours of combined effort running endless tedious missions....the station lights have changed colour!! It's a fantastic achievement and I heartily congratulate all of you. Oh yes, and there is a new station announcer....they say exactly the same thing but with a different accent...let's go celebrate!

The top 10 factions rule 30+ systems....and do what exactly with those 30+ systems? How is that influence/control exacted on the game world? How does that impact the game in any meaningful way?

 

[krylite]

q

No. I mentioned it as an example of undelivered promise, NOT a suggestion. Nice try though.

Lol, it was under your =>"Can it Be Fixed"<= header. So your only suggestion was for FD to fulfill future stretch goals specifically hiding in ships which you'll probably bash anyways years from now when finished. And you are wrong in your nonsense about suggestions being useless ( you probably just quickly said that even though you really don't believe it for the sake of being contrary), calling the rebuttals "objectively wrong". And also you replied you didn't want hiding in ships, but your OP said you hoped those promises would be fulfilled. Having it both ways? nope gotcha and everyone knows it.

But Frontier promised a lot more with Elite than we have received. A sandbox game. Wherein we could craft our own experiences. Hiding in other ships. Stealing them. Shaping the sand in the sandbox to craft our own unique stories. Playing our way, without missing out.

And we havent received that game. I still hope we will.

Hiding in ships is a quote from David Braben. That was something he wanted, not me.

With no more suggestions, in my estimation your OP is just a salty useless nonsensical blaming whine. Sure it's your personal feelings of the game, but ultimately makes no valid case or points about how ED "went wrong" or built the "sandbox wrong". Enjoy the attention to the griping in your sandbox of salt while it lasts.

How Not to Craft a Sandbox Experiance.

Listen to this guy. He clearly has no idea what constitutes a sandbox.

Another typical blackcompany post where he doesn't seem to know what he is talking about.

Exactly.

 

[John Xenir]

I can't see why anyone sane would like one person to influence entire galaxy. And frankly, I don't recall one post saying they should.

But I recall a lot of people misunderstanding OPs in their post, bringing "you shouldn't impact whole galaxy" argument as result of their black-white simplification while trying to understand anything.

 

[Jane Turner]

This is incorrect on a number of levels.

1) The tick is daily/roughly 24 hours, not weekly. You're thinking of PowerPlay
2) Station announcers change, stations change lighting and marker text. Security levels can change (certainly when involving an anarchy). Black markets may open or close. Particular commodities become legal or illegal. Some ships may or may not be available. Certain states shut down mission board and outfitting, nav beacons can get compromised or uncompromised, etc.
3) Ever been to Ross 128? The Federation permit system you can go to once you got enough rank for a FAS? "Welcome to Alliance Space, CMDR"
4) You can see here: https://eddb.io/faction and sort on Controlling. The top 10 factions in the game all rule over 30+ systems. That only happens because of concerted and sustained focused player activity

Saved me a job! Elite is one of the more complex strategy games around once you look under the bonnet!

 

[John Xenir]

Saved me a job! Elite is one of the more complex strategy games around once you look under the bonnet!

I thought it was supposed to be never-leave-cockpit space pew-pew simulator.
According to some, at least

I smell an outstanding amount of skies crumbling upon some people's heads because of what you just said.
How dare you!

 

[Ethaidan]

Consider a child in an actual, real sandbox. Put them in, and they will just sort of...sit there. Maybe kick the sand around a bit. But a child in an empty sandbox isnt going to get their hands dirty doing nothing. So throw in a bunch of really cool looking statues and static objects for the child to navigate between, and watch them...still sit there, now looking at YOU like the idiot you have proven yourself to be.

But throw in a shovel, a bucket and maybe a rake or two. Add a couple of other buckets...perhaps in different shapes...and watch the child go nuts with joy. They will play with those toys, because those toys allow them to SHAPE the sand. With such powerful tools, the child can leave an indelible impression upon the sandbox. They can make their mark, and see the results of their actions with their own two eyes. It is this ability to shape the contents of a sandbox to one's own whims that makes a sandbox so compelling, and it is this that Elite lacks.

If your reasoning in the wall of text following your opening analogy was similarly constructed... wow. I'm guessing you don't actually have children (if you do I feel sad for them). We spend a fair bit of time in the sand and, more often than not, forget to bring along a bag of plastic tools. Not once have our children ever just sat there, or kicked the sand around - they use their hands, their feet, sticks/stones washed up by the tide, whatever they have at hand to do whatever they imagine they need to. Listening to them describe the different parts of the towns, forts or castles they create further emphasises how little they actually need extra tools. Hell, if they had some cool looking statues to include in their rudimentary creations, they'd go mental with glee.

I only skimmed what came after that analogy. I presume it's as banal as one would expect

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Well gentlemen, I'm proud to announce that after 10,000+ hours of combined effort running endless tedious missions....the station lights have changed colour!! It's a fantastic achievement and I heartily congratulate all of you. Oh yes, and there is a new station announcer....they say exactly the same thing but with a different accent...let's go celebrate!

The top 10 factions rule 30+ systems....and do what exactly with those 30+ systems? How is that influence/control exacted on the game world? How does that impact the game in any meaningful way?

It's a roleplay thing. Some like to just make up their own stories.

 

[John Xenir]

If your reasoning in the wall of text following your opening analogy was similarly constructed... wow. I'm guessing you don't actually have children (if you do I feel sad for them). We spend a fair bit of time in the sand and, more often than not, forget to bring along a bag of plastic tools. Not once have our children ever just sat there, or kicked the sand around - they use their hands, their feet, sticks/stones washed up by the tide, whatever they have at hand to do whatever they imagine they need to. Listening to them describe the different parts of the towns, forts or castles they create further emphasises how little they actually need extra tools. Hell, if they had some cool looking statues to include in their rudimentary creations, they'd go mental with glee.

I only skimmed what came after that analogy. I presume it's as banal as one would expect

So, because the analogy wasn't spot-on, that somehow invalidates entirety of his thesis?

I wish I was 5 again. I could have that awesome imagination, and also be totally oblivious to adult people being jerks to one another.

 

[crushdepth]

I can't see why anyone sane would like one person to influence entire galaxy. And frankly, I don't recall one post saying they should.

But I recall a lot of people misunderstanding OPs in their post, bringing "you shouldn't impact whole galaxy" argument as result of their black-white simplification while trying to understand anything.

It's a deliberate misdirection commonly used by proponents of the status quo.

You're right, nobody has asked to be President of the Galaxy. But there's no reason why a skilled player or a wing should not be able to tip a localised space battle through intelligent play. If we actually had contestable battle zones, which sadly we don't. Why can't we defend stations from thargoids assaults, that sort of thing.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Sandbox?

Heck, if we had one in the 1st place I think the Game would instantly transform into something far more interesting
The possibilities would be nearly limitless.

 

[John Xenir]

Yup, people mistake seeing local results of their actions on a minor, local scale, with being God.

 

[zombieapocalypse]

People love loot, right? I mean, play the game, get rewards. That's a fun game play loop. Works all the time.

Why, then, is it NOT fun and engaging in Elite? I mean, Skyrim players LOVED obtaining material for crafting their "modules." So...why do Elite players NOT enjoy it nearly as much?

You lost me with the Skyrim example. The loot and progression system in Skyrim and the Fallout games is tedious, grindy and boring. Endlessly grinding out honed daggers to improve at blacksmithing, yeah that was fun. I'm not saying it's any better in ED, but Skyrim is a poor example.

I liked Skyrim and Fallout 3/4 for their interesting and often beautiful worlds, and the joy of exploring them, but these games are full of gameplay flaws.

For a starter, choices/actions rarely effect any significant change on the world (though the like to pretend they do), a complaint you seemed to be making about ED.

Furthermore, these games are far too easy. Although they start of hard, by the mid-game you're practically an invincible demi-god. This is because you don't really have to make difficult character/roleplay decisions, the game effectively lets you max out every skill path. And in that sense, they're not really RPGs (compare the difference between Interplay's Fallout 1/2 and Bethesda's Fallout 3/4).

The gameplay is exceedingly repetitive. Like ED, most of the missions/quests boil down to doing the same thing and use boring cookie-cutter story lines. It follows the classic pattern of clear dungeon, gain xp and loot, upgrade character/equipment, then clear slightly harder dungeon, gain xp and loot, upgrade character/equipment, and so and so forth, ad nauseum... And after a while, the dungeons, castles and caves all look the same.

Inventory management is extremely tedious. There's no economy to speak off. And most of the characters are one-dimensional bores. Not to mention how poor the swordplay/gunplay in these games is.

The main difference between Skyrim/Fallout and ED, is that Skyrim/Fallout has an endgame - a central mission. So it feels like you're working towards something.

However, where Skyrim/Fallout really excel is in the community mods. Especially the mods that can completely change the game systems, add greater depth or realism, or allow you to tailor the gameplay and the roleplaying elements to your tastes.

 

[Ethaidan]

I cannot play my way without missing out on engendered modules in some shape or form

I've yet to encounter this in Elite and had no idea FD were so inclusive! Are gendered modules based on a genital derived binary formulation of male/female, or is it more sociologically fluid with masculine, feminine, transgender, genderqueer/non-binary? How does one access this module alteration system - is there a hermit engineer somewhere I am not yet aware of?

 

[Ethaidan]

So, because the analogy wasn't spot-on, that somehow invalidates entirety of his thesis?

I wish I was 5 again. I could have that awesome imagination, and also be totally oblivious to adult people being jerks to one another.

Partially, yes, when taken as a measure of the posters capacity for reasoning and communication. Especially when it follows an opening that includes... This is not a salt post... and Rebuttals are objectively wrong. Well, then we can expect pretty much the same song that's been sung before...

 

[Urbanski101]

LHS 3458 Gold Partners - BGS weekly update.

This week as you know we've been recovering from a nasty outbreak of something whilst fighting a civil war with those blighters the LHS 3458 Progression Party. We fully expect the war to be over within the next few days. It's not really possible to say who will win or what the outcome of this war will be, or indeed what we were fighting about, but you've all done a sterling job...well done.

Next week once the war is over and nobody has won or lost we're expecting a period of famine...so there's a rough few days ahead chaps. There's no particular reason for the famine, we just haven't had one for a while so we thought we'd just change things up. The good news is that directly after the famine and for no explicable reason we'll be experiencing a boom period and I know how much you all enjoy those...so that's something to look forward to.

Our long term goal has always been expansion into another system as this will mean we will experience more of these inexplicable and transient states with greater frequency, variety is the spice of life after all. Now then...best foot forward, eyes to the horizon and don't ask too many questions....off you go!

 

[John Xenir]

Partially, yes, when taken as a measure of the posters capacity for reasoning and communication. Especially when it follows an opening that includes... This is not a salt post... and Rebuttals are objectively wrong. Well, then we can expect pretty much the same song that's been sung before...

Right, then that:

I've yet to encounter this in Elite and had no idea FD were so inclusive! Are gendered modules based on a genital derived binary formulation of male/female, or is it more sociologically fluid with masculine, feminine, transgender, genderqueer/non-binary? How does one access this module alteration system - is there a hermit engineer somewhere I am not yet aware of?

... taken as a measure of your willingness to constructively join the conversation must mean I shouldn't expect any positive feedback from you, but rather look forward to snarky responses that bring nothing meaningful to the table. Gotchya!

LHS 3458 Gold Partners - BGS weekly update.

This week as you know we've been recovering from a nasty outbreak of something whilst fighting a civil war with those blighters the LHS 3458 Progression Party. We fully expect the war to be over within the next few days. It's not really possible to say who will win or what the outcome of this war is or indeed what we were fighting about, but you've all done a sterling job...well done.

Next week once the war is over and nobody has won or lost we'll be expecting a famine...so there's a rough few days ahead chaps. There's no particular reason for the famine, we just haven't had one for a while so we thought we'd just change things up. The good news is that directly after the famine and for no explicable reason we'll be experiencing a boom period and I know how much you all enjoy those...so that's something to look forward to.

Our long term goal has always been expansion into another system as this will mean we will experience more of these inexplicable and transient states with greater frequency, variety is the spice of life after all. Now then...best foot forward, eyes to the horizon and don't ask too many questions....off you go!

I've cracked a good laugh, job well done! Have some rep

 

[sutex]

Unfortunately, Elite does NOT reward you for playing the game your way.

Next someone will ask you to leave the forums, lol.. As you who are so correct, wont drink the Cool Aid too..lol

sssh check the signature..ssh

 

[Enderby]

Exactly this. And its a shame, since flying and fighting are pretty fantastic, actually.

They are indeed. But unfortunately this only goes to make the rest of it seem chronically under par.

It’s ED’s great enigma.