The Trouble with Associating Jump Range with Exploration Gameplay

[Straha Yeagar]

Yes, regarding exploration, I'd rather see more "meat on the bone" in general, as it were.

Jump range is a critical travel mechanic, but doesn't particularly enhance exploration gameplay specifically, in my opinion.

There are a select few of us that jump range is pretty essential to our exploration game play. Those of us who explore out on the rim, and high and low between the arms where we are having to manually plot each jump in a route because the stars are 100 or more ly apart...range is essential for that playground.

That said, as a rim explorer, I don't really want to see ranges increase over what they are now. I think we are at pretty much the perfect spot actually. If ranges continue to increase, it will seriously decrease my enjoyment in what I do...the manually calculating distances, precise fuel management, finding workable yet difficult routes. In my case, the journey is truly the enjoyment over the destination, and I don't want that journey made easy. I don't do these things because they are easy, I do them because they are hard.

 

[Iskariot]

Jump range is important more for just racing places. Fuel scooping potential and efficiency, and also things like supercruise maneuverability and so on are more important for exploration efficiency. More time exploring, going about your business, whatever that might be, and less time waiting for game mechanics.

If your business is racing off somewhere, then jump range is more important for you. This has nothing really specific to do with exploration and has just as much to do, if not more so, with the other careers in the game, like trading, where jump range is more important to be more effective at it.

Jump range is nice to have, but it isn't really so much of an exploration specific game mechanic, unless your brand of exploration is trying to reach the outermost fringes of the galaxy (when compared to others doing the same), or similar, which is more of a niche type of exploration. Jump range doesn't much affect systems explored per time the way fuel scooping does.

In a sense, jump range is more of a capability to avoid exploration and get on with whatever else you'd rather be doing in the game – I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that specifically, and in fact it can be a nice optional ability to have; I'm just calling it like I see it. Personally, I'd rather see more to exploration itself than enhanced was of avoiding it. We'll see what Q4 brings, but I'm somewhat optimistic, and hope Frontier take these things into consideration when further enhancing and developing exploration gameplay.

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, but jump range is also important to be able to reach certain areas that cannot be reached otherwise.
An if you want to explore a specific remote area of space it is nice if you can reach it relatively fast.

 

[WR3ND]

...

I hear what you're saying, especially regarding the Lewis & Clark expeditions. Was watching a documentary about Glacier National Park in the US recently that quoted from their journals and talked about some of their adventures. Definitely some rather compelling accounts.

These days I can plot a route straight to the Scull and Crossbones Nebula and back using nothing but scoop-able stars in my 19.51 LY Vulture, no worries whatsoever about crossing the thin bits of space between the galactic arms.

Exploration isn't particularly about accessibility, or at least I would think that it shouldn't be. Going on tourist safaris, on the other hand...

Spoiler

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, but jump range is also important to be able to reach certain areas that cannot be reached otherwise.
An if you want to explore a specific remote area of space it is nice if you can reach it relatively fast.

Yeah, I'm not saying jump range doesn't have its uses. I just don't see it as an exploration specific gameplay mechanic the way that it often seems made out to be. It's just as important for things like trading in the game, if not even more so, in my opinion.

 

[Iskariot]

Yeah, I'm not saying jump range doesn't have its uses. I just don't see it as an exploration specific gameplay mechanic the way that it often seems made out to be.

I agree with that.
People who constantly make huge jumps are skipping more stars than they actually explore.

 

[Drelthar]

I would also put in, as a restriction on access to this, that a Permit be granted by Professor Palin, ensuring you complete your 5k Ly trip the same way everyone else has had to do so prior to being able to make use of this.

You would?

Cruel.

What I'd do is reduce his ridiculous requirement to something more sane, like 1000 ly, I think there are actual things around that distance, or, better yet, make it a scan of a thargoid structure to fit his theme.

5000ly is silly.

What is actually there 5000ly out? Is there anything of actual interest? I mean, interest to most people, if there's a "cool looking planet" that for me personally doesn't count.

Guardian ruins are somewhere.... Around... 1000 ish, I don't really know because I went there once on my way to perform this ridiculous task. It was interesting. The rest of the journey was huge levels of tedium for me, I wasn't really playing the game while doing it.

I would not begrudge anyone getting a "free ride" on this particular unlock requirement. It's pretty Ill thought out really.

As for the op, it's an element, and something I think of with exploration ships, but yeah, it's also a trade ship feature to me.

 

[Iskariot]

You would?

Cruel.

... or, better yet, make it a scan of a thargoid structure to fit his theme.

I think that is an excellent suggestion.
Demanding we scan a few Thargoid and/or Guardian structures would be awesome.
It would give people an extra reason to visit that alien content.

I think that would be sensible and solid game play.

 

[Funny]

You would?

Cruel.

What I'd do is reduce his ridiculous requirement to something more sane, like 1000 ly, I think there are actual things around that distance, or, better yet, make it a scan of a thargoid structure to fit his theme.

5000ly is silly.

What is actually there 5000ly out? Is there anything of actual interest? I mean, interest to most people, if there's a "cool looking planet" that for me personally doesn't count.

Guardian ruins are somewhere.... Around... 1000 ish, I don't really know because I went there once on my way to perform this ridiculous task. It was interesting. The rest of the journey was huge levels of tedium for me, I wasn't really playing the game while doing it.

I would not begrudge anyone getting a "free ride" on this particular unlock requirement. It's pretty Ill thought out really.

As for the op, it's an element, and something I think of with exploration ships, but yeah, it's also a trade ship feature to me.

I think roughly around 5000 ly there are some nebulae? Might be wrong and it’s closer to 10k. Regardless, 5k ly IS what you need to travel to get to the second spiral arm on a direct route to sag A. It’s not hard, and anyone who explores will likely have a lot more than that under their belt. Though I do get why non-explorers would take issue with it. If Palin was solely for explorers it would probably be fine, but it might need to be changed to something else.

 

[CDOTS]

Jump range is very important for exploration for me to get to hard to reach places. One time I had to synth my jump 5 times cause each jump was 80k ly away. I had my multicrew open and one cmdr thought for sure I was dead in space. On my last synth of jump I prayed there was a planet in that system I could land on to collect more materials cause the last few there was none. And sure enough there was one planet that had my mtls . And I got out of that mess.

And other times its important to me is if I'm exploring the rim and it's been discovered already I say a few thoughts in my head I won't say here then super jump to a new part of the galaxy and continue to discover new systems.

Even with big jumps that we have now you can still find yourself in sticky situations.

Plus I can carry 2 fighter bays 4 srvs fuel limpits repair limpits 2 heal beam laser just cause and full utility slots cargo space hull reinforcement and a decent shield and still jump over 50 ly.

 

[Mengy]

That said, as a rim explorer, I don't really want to see ranges increase over what they are now. I think we are at pretty much the perfect spot actually. If ranges continue to increase, it will seriously decrease my enjoyment in what I do...the manually calculating distances, precise fuel management, finding workable yet difficult routes. In my case, the journey is truly the enjoyment over the destination, and I don't want that journey made easy. I don't do these things because they are easy, I do them because they are hard.

Yeah, I think most people don't want jump ranges to inflate higher than they are now.

However, I would like to see the Anaconda's jump range become the standard target range of exploration ships. For example, if the mass of the Asp X was decreased 30T from it's current 280T to 250T then it would jump about equal to the Anaconda in similar outfit and engineering. Similarly, if the mass of the DBX was lowered just 15T from 260T to 245T then it too would jump as far as the Anaconda. Those are two small hull mass adjustments which would greatly open up ship choices for deep space explorers instead of forcing a great many of us to fly the Anaconda simply because nothing else can jump like it can. Likewise I'd love to see any future exploration oriented ships balanced and designed to be equal with the Anaconda on jump range too.

I'd also like to see a new utility module called the Neutron Battery which could store two charges of neutron energy that could be used to charge the FSD on command, allowing explorers to reach very far off fringe systems that are now impossible to get to. If you make the charging process very long and damaging to the ship then it couldn't be abused as a travel mechanic, but it still would allow explorers more options to reach distant worlds.

 

[Jack Schitt]

And to that end, I've proposed, more than once, a single-use, strap-on range-extension module - Give me something I can use to hurl myself out 1000 or 5000 or 10,000 Ly - one way, once, and I'll find my way home full of data.

I quite like that. With a bit of lore-bending there's actually precedent for this in the Elite universe, sort of. The original game had a very expensive one-shot "galactic hyperdrive" that would cycle the player through the eight "galaxies" of 256 stars. Because a galaxy of only 256 stars made little sense to me even as a kid, I always headcannoned it as being something that moved the player between regions within a single galaxy, like a wormhole.

This would fit quite nicely into ED. Something like a one-way stargate, superpower-controlled, requiring orders of magnitude more energy than a starship can provide or manipulate, very expensive to use, maybe with a bit of uncertainty so you're never entirely sure as to exactly where you'll end up. I'm sure FD could come up with some scientific (or more likely political) rationale as to why there aren't two of these things connecting the bubble and the Colonia region, or indeed why Colonia can't be targeted directly. Maybe a safety risk, tied to that uncertainty?

Maybe something like this is what we'll build with reverse-engineered Thargoid technology.

Down the line it could even (and this is blue-sky thinking of the highest order, I admit) open up the Magellanic clouds for exploration. Imagine hundreds or thousands of human starships wormholing to the LMC or SMC, then gathering and pooling resources in a series of CGs with the purpose of building a generator installation capable of translating ships back to the Milky Way and establishing a two-way route.

And imagine the view from out there.

Apart from bragging rights, what is the point of getting to a distant star system if it's just the same as countless more easily accessible systems.

"Because it's there."

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Crossing between the arms used to be a thing - pathfinding used to be a topic of discussion, e.g. getting across the Formidine Gap.
I remember struggling to find a way out of one of those sparse regions between arms - it was a genuine hazard for explorers.

I do feel like the doubled FSD ranges have really relegated that to being pretty effortless (nicer isn't really the word I'd use), and now it pretty much is only about the extreme outer fringes.

Nah, there are still huge challenges for explorers, its just that they have changed in position.

 

[Funny]

Nah, there are still huge challenges for explorers, its just that they have changed in position.

The planets... Dead again you say? Well not today, I have 4 class e engineered hevay duty boosters!

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Along these lines, finding the shortest jump range requirements to reach the Crab Nebula was a very enjoyable part of exploration gameplay for me. This is something that becomes more of a moot form of exploration in relevant exploration gameplay with ever increasing jump ranges, and yes, it is something now limited more to just the fringes of the galaxy and one-upping other explorers in min/maxed meta ship builds.

Nope, the same can be done with new places. I personally did something similar to you but with a route to The Box Nebula.

The planets... Dead again you say? Well not today, I have 4 class e engineered hevay duty boosters!

I'm talking about systems.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

There are a select few of us that jump range is pretty essential to our exploration game play. Those of us who explore out on the rim, and high and low between the arms where we are having to manually plot each jump in a route because the stars are 100 or more ly apart...range is essential for that playground.

That said, as a rim explorer, I don't really want to see ranges increase over what they are now. I think we are at pretty much the perfect spot actually. If ranges continue to increase, it will seriously decrease my enjoyment in what I do...the manually calculating distances, precise fuel management, finding workable yet difficult routes. In my case, the journey is truly the enjoyment over the destination, and I don't want that journey made easy. I don't do these things because they are easy, I do them because they are hard.

Indeed, the number of currently unreachable systems is now too small to keep increasing jump range.

Maybe some mechanics that allow single huge jumps could be in order but I don't have anything in mind.

 

[trollson]

I agree with the OP that jump range isn't the golden measure of exporation.

Unforunately its where we are -- long legs are needed to reach the virgin fields which are getting further away from the bubble.

However I lament the loss of "texture" in the galaxy due to the availability of long jumps.

Going back to a basic Sidey there are only a few stars within a jump range - space had texture, and to go from "A" to "B" you'd have to take an interesting route.

As jump ranges increase, the number of stars reachable increases (cubic), and the route "A" to "B" becomes more of a straight line. Much less interesting.

It might have been more interesting to have a normal jump ranges of 6 - 20 Ly, and rely on extending individual jumps through gameplay.

Being able to bypass (jump over) large areas of stars makes interstellar campaigns more like WWII Pacific than a land campaign. Defensive lines are pointless, and you are left with redoutes and roving fleets which may bump into each other.

 

[Mengy]

Indeed, the number of currently unreachable systems is now too small to keep increasing jump range.

Maybe some mechanics that allow single huge jumps could be in order but I don't have anything in mind.

See my post a few posts back!

I'd also like to see a new utility module called the Neutron Battery which could store two charges of neutron energy that could be used to charge the FSD on command, allowing explorers to reach very far off fringe systems that are now impossible to get to. If you make the charging process very long and damaging to the ship then it couldn't be abused as a travel mechanic, but it still would allow explorers more options to reach distant worlds.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I agree with that.
People who constantly make huge jumps are skipping more stars than they actually explore.

That's debatable. JR does not affect the amount of stars one can visit in a give amount of time, just the distance between each other but I assure you I'd have pretty much the same visited systems as I have ATM if jump range was cut by half.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

See my post a few posts back!

I just had not read through that part yet, something along those lines should do the trick.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Jump range is important more for just racing places. Fuel scooping potential and efficiency, and also things like supercruise maneuverability and so on are more important for exploration efficiency. More time exploring, going about your business, whatever that might be, and less time waiting for game mechanics.

If your business is racing off somewhere, then jump range is more important for you. This has nothing really specific to do with exploration and has just as much to do, if not more so, with the other careers in the game, like trading, where jump range is more important to be more effective at it.

Jump range is nice to have, but it isn't really so much of an exploration specific game mechanic, unless your brand of exploration is trying to reach the outermost fringes of the galaxy (when compared to others doing the same), or similar, which is more of a niche type of exploration. Jump range doesn't much affect systems explored per time the way fuel scooping does.

In a sense, jump range is more of a capability to avoid exploration and get on with whatever else you'd rather be doing in the game – I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that specifically, and in fact it can be a nice optional ability to have; I'm just calling it like I see it. Personally, I'd rather see more to exploration itself than enhanced was of avoiding it. We'll see what Q4 brings, but I'm somewhat optimistic, and hope Frontier take these things into consideration when further enhancing and developing exploration gameplay.

Now that I think about it, higher jump ranges are more efficient in economic mode than low jump ranges as you don't spend time fuel scooping pretty much at all!

 

[WR3ND]

Nope, the same can be done with new places. I personally did something similar to you but with a route to The Box Nebula.

...

When talking about a scout type role in Distant Worlds 2 coming up, finding certain limitations and requirements regarding jump range to reach the various waypoints/base camps, no one particularly cares, and I can't say that I blame them, jump ranges being what they are now. It's much more of a moot exploration related endeavor in that regard. Exploration in this sort of context is almost more of a personal role-play choice than a relevant gameplay mechanic.

"Been there, done that over two years ago; just along for the ride and multiplayer shenanigans," seems to be the general mindset. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing for those going along for these sort of reasons. It's just a little disappointing for me, as I had hoped for a bit more than that out of the expedition and to be able to play a more relevant role other than "Explorer" tourist.