PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

So, why don't people like PvP then?

In that exact same sales pitch it also says, "Play alone, or with friends". You fail to take that into account. You can hunt other Commanders. Just not all of them. You can only hunt, those willing to be hunted. The materials that told you about PvP should also have told you about the Modes and that people get to make their own choices. When I found out about E|D I looked it up. I found out the details of the game, and the Modes sold me. You bought it for another reason, that doesn't mean you get to decide how I play. You should have known what you were buying.

Caveat Emptor

Well right now, its because who ever has the most time to put into their ships auto wins with stats. And it takes a LONG TIME to max out to be anywhere near our level.

But with 3.0 on the way. ALL OF THAT CHANGES. The playing field is now level. Lots of people will feel more comfortable because it doesnt take near the amount of time to reach max stats.

Also people dont PVP when it comes to powerplay and BGS because all of it is done with Hauling, and you can use solo and private for it.

The ship build for Open is at an disadvantage compared to what youd outfit for solo and private.

In solo and private you can strip all defenses, only engineer a FSD, and get triple the cargo space in a python in the just the 3 size 6 slots alone.

So there is no meaning to PVP here, even though if I were to kill you, not only would you lose rebuy, you would lose Rep for your faction and %'s for influence as well as time wasted for stacking missions. PVP does hold LOTS OF WEIGHT when it comes to powerplay and BGS.

But no one around here can put that together because they either dont take part in it. or use the modes for the lesser risk against the people you are fighting against.

Thats why people dont PVP. BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE OPTION. Even though Ive ran across lots of people that ive have fought and are capable of PVPing. But they dont, because they cant keep up with the crew min maxing their ships in private and solo because of that META that exists where open is at a disadvantage.

Now here is where you probably didnt read any of that. Or will deny it. Even though I've literally given you the math behind whats going on here.

And A lot of us didnt get what was advertised. It didnt come with a OH BY THE WAY GUESS WHAT PVP is only for SALT because you can do everything against everyone else in private and solo.

Thats not my fault. Thatd Fdevs fault. They advertised that. And Sandro literally just said less that 2 months ago. That powerplay was meant to be a consensual PVP program.

 

[AbsinthSvK]

/me checks last page of thread, compares with title of the thread, goes away confused.

Ignore post about London and its still on topic. How pvp sucks = not popular.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Ok, so, serious head time... like Wurzel Gummidge. I gots me thinking head on Aunt Sally!

So, why is PvP not popular? Well, as has been noted, many reasons, from mechanics to the players. But one thing strikes me.

Its not the only predominantly PvE game with the option to PvP out there. Some games deal with such by having separate servers... and i'm sure the PvPers hate that as well, but that's by the by. The shared galaxy causes more issues for some.

But let's look at what happens when PvP occurs. On one extreme you have two players who are fairly equally kitted and skilled, and you potentially have a fun encounter.

In ED though, most likely that is not the case. Many are not playing for the PvP or kitting for the PvP. There is an argument to be made that if you are playing in Open then you should kit for PvP. But even so, if you are in a trade ship, your only option is to run anyway, not matter how well armoured you are. There is no fighting back here. Or an explorer returning from a long trip... and not many people are willing to sacrifice a hell of a lot of jump range just on the off chance that after months in the black they will get attacked during the last 10 minutes of their return to the bubble.

There is an imbalance.

Now, let's take a look at a typical MMORPG where PvE and PvP can exist together. All characters are PvP capable in some way. There is no "trade" class. There are support classes, but even alone most support classes can give good account of themselves. Ill speak about NWN2 because its the one i'm most familiar with, although calling it an MMORPG is stretching things, but there is the Neverwinter MMO as well. Rogues can often hide and backstab against a PvPer. Clerics while technically a support class can lay down a load a pain. A mage caught alone and unprepared is dead, but if they have time to prepare, then they can lay down a world of pain for any attacker.

ED's "problem" is that people, even long term players, can be flying what are effectively flying coffins for PvP. While Rinzler's git gud guide to trading is useful, it only paints a partial picture. Not everyone is as good as Rinzler nor will ever be. Not everyone will face those circumnstances and handle them in the same way. Not everyone will react well. And in many cases, that trade ship is toast before you can even high wake, no matter how good you are. The video was produced under what could be called controlled circumstances, and i'm sure throw a few expereinced players at Rinzler in similar situations, and some will take him out.

Where PvP can shine, and be fun in ED is through organzied duels, where everyone participating knows excatly what they are getting into. Where there are some basic rules to ensuire fair play and balance. And both losers and winners after a fight can say "GG man, that was fun".

That is why i'm a strong supporter of the PvP hub and have worked alongside them to maintain their control of San Tu. Because while not being into PvP in ED myself, i think what they are doing is a great thing for PvP in ED. Plus i've had a few PvP battles with the guys and its been fun. And i'd recommend even the most ardent carebear to pop over there for a bit of a blast just for the fun of it. I'm sure if you let people know you were hopeless at PvP they would be happy to take a less powerful or experimental ship against you so that its fun for you as well.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Ok, so, serious head time... like Wurzel Gummidge. I gots me thinking head on Aunt Sally!

So, why is PvP not popular? Well, as has been noted, many reasons, from mechanics to the players. But one thing strikes me.

Its not the only predominantly PvE game with the option to PvP out there. Some games deal with such by having separate servers... and i'm sure the PvPers hate that as well, but that's by the by. The shared galaxy causes more issues for some.

But let's look at what happens when PvP occurs. On one extreme you have two players who are fairly equally kitted and skilled, and you potentially have a fun encounter.

In ED though, most likely that is not the case. Many are not playing for the PvP or kitting for the PvP. There is an argument to be made that if you are playing in Open then you should kit for PvP. But even so, if you are in a trade ship, your only option is to run anyway, not matter how well armoured you are. There is no fighting back here. Or an explorer returning from a long trip... and not many people are willing to sacrifice a hell of a lot of jump range just on the off chance that after months in the black they will get attacked during the last 10 minutes of their return to the bubble.

There is an imbalance.

Now, let's take a look at a typical MMORPG where PvE and PvP can exist together. All characters are PvP capable in some way. There is no "trade" class. There are support classes, but even alone most support classes can give good account of themselves. Ill speak about NWN2 because its the one i'm most familiar with, although calling it an MMORPG is stretching things, but there is the Neverwinter MMO as well. Rogues can often hide and backstab against a PvPer. Clerics while technically a support class can lay down a load a pain. A mage caught alone and unprepared is dead, but if they have time to prepare, then they can lay down a world of pain for any attacker.

ED's "problem" is that people, even long term players, can be flying what are effectively flying coffins for PvP. While Rinzler's git gud guide to trading is useful, it only paints a partial picture. Not everyone is as good as Rinzler nor will ever be. Not everyone will face those circumnstances and handle them in the same way. Not everyone will react well. And in many cases, that trade ship is toast before you can even high wake, no matter how good you are. The video was produced under what could be called controlled circumstances, and i'm sure throw a few expereinced players at Rinzler in similar situations, and some will take him out.

Where PvP can shine, and be fun in ED is through organzied duels, where everyone participating knows excatly what they are getting into. Where there are some basic rules to ensuire fair play and balance. And both losers and winners after a fight can say "GG man, that was fun".

That is why i'm a strong supporter of the PvP hub and have worked alongside them to maintain their control of San Tu. Because while not being into PvP in ED myself, i think what they are doing is a great thing for PvP in ED. Plus i've had a few PvP battles with the guys and its been fun. And i'd recommend even the most ardent carebear to pop over there for a bit of a blast just for the fun of it. I'm sure if you let people know you were hopeless at PvP they would be happy to take a less powerful or experimental ship against you so that its fun for you as well.

Yep the players had to create their own outlet because of the imbalances instead of using what Fdev has given us with Powerplay and BGS player factions.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

So, why don't people like PvP then?

In that exact same sales pitch it also says, "Play alone, or with friends". You fail to take that into account. You can hunt other Commanders. Just not all of them. You can only hunt, those willing to be hunted. The materials that told you about PvP should also have told you about the Modes and that people get to make their own choices. When I found out about E|D I looked it up. I found out the details of the game, and the Modes sold me. You bought it for another reason, that doesn't mean you get to decide how I play. You should have known what you were buying.

Caveat Emptor

That doesn't mean even that.

FD have always wanted PvP to have meaningful. Just hunting other players isn't meaningful or fun for them. There are players who does that for in-game reasons, but those are far too few and between.

Unfortunately lot of PvP players does not look forward to connect with the game, for them this is just another sand pool or beach where they can kick someone's sand castle or throw water into face.

It would be better for them to move on and stop confusingly look around why no one wants to play with them. They aren't welcome. It is simple as that.

 

[Mohrgan]

Well right now, its because who ever has the most time to put into their ships auto wins with stats. And it takes a LONG TIME to max out to be anywhere near our level.

But with 3.0 on the way. ALL OF THAT CHANGES. The playing field is now level. Lots of people will feel more comfortable because it doesnt take near the amount of time to reach max stats.

Also people dont PVP when it comes to powerplay and BGS because all of it is done with Hauling, and you can use solo and private for it.

The ship build for Open is at an disadvantage compared to what youd outfit for solo and private.

In solo and private you can strip all defenses, only engineer a FSD, and get triple the cargo space in a python in the just the 3 size 6 slots alone.

So there is no meaning to PVP here, even though if I were to kill you, not only would you lose rebuy, you would lose Rep for your faction and %'s for influence as well as time wasted for stacking missions. PVP does hold LOTS OF WEIGHT when it comes to powerplay and BGS.

But no one around here can put that together because they either dont take part in it. or use the modes for the lesser risk against the people you are fighting against.

Thats why people dont PVP. BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE OPTION. Even though Ive ran across lots of people that ive have fought and are capable of PVPing. But they dont, because they cant keep up with the crew min maxing their ships in private and solo because of that META that exists where open is at a disadvantage.

Now here is where you probably didnt read any of that. Or will deny it. Even though I've literally given you the math behind whats going on here.

The only thing required to put that all together is: A PvP bias along with an agenda. You're just going to have to accept that your interpretation of things isn't shared by all, and certainly not me. PvP has zero impact on the BGS. No buckets are filled by PvP. At best you can reduce the number of buckets the opposition fills, but that is dubious. Dubious, because there are so many ways you will miss an opponent. Instancing, Blocks, Time Zones, the list goes on. I'll say it again: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Why no response about the sales pitch? You brought it up, and I shot it down, why no rebuttal?

The changes to Engineering may bring back those that left because of Engineers. The changes to C&P may bring back those who left because of the lack of consequences. But, you just will not see those that don't like PvP because of PvP. The option to be able to avoid PvP was an integral part of the development of E|D. Right from the get go, there were 3 modes, including Solo(online). To be fair, PvP was right there too. But, it was never intended to be compulsory, it is completely optional.

Those were the conditions of purchase. Nothing is broken. There is just some stuff you don't like. There is a big difference. If you hadn't fixated on the "hunt other players" part, and looked at the whole sales pitch, you may have seen things differently.

 

[frostypaw]

Thats why people dont PVPplay this game and don't just leave to avoid all this toxicity and nonsense. BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE OPTION.

Again pretty much nobody's against PvP only the pointless fly swatting, rp-less ganks and the attitude. You force the situation and they'll just go play something else.

It's not only you who has that option.

 

[Jenner]

Please stay on topic and stop talking about yourself.

Please do not backseat moderate.
Report posts and the mod team will investigate and take action if warranted.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yep the players had to create their own outlet because of the imbalances instead of using what Fdev has given us with Powerplay and BGS player factions.

But they are doing something positive, rather than just complaining and being negative.

Someone just posted this on the Steam forums, i think it quite apt:

Grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Words to live by i think.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

That doesn't mean even that.

FD have always wanted PvP to have meaningful. Just hunting other players isn't meaningful or fun for them. There are players who does that for in-game reasons, but those are far too few and between.

Unfortunately lot of PvP players does not look forward to connect with the game, for them this is just another sand pool or beach where they can kick someone's sand castle or throw water into face.

It would be better for them to move on and stop confusingly look around why no one wants to play with them. They aren't welcome. It is simple as that.

You know if youd look at the history. Most of the PVPers want meaningful PVP in this game. But we cant have it because of the modes. So instead all we got is griefing and ganking.

The people holding back the changes to BGS and powerplay. Are literally funding Griefing and Ganking by not allowing meaningful PVP to exist.

This is called having their cake and eating it too.

They have backed themselves into a corner.

The Irony here is ridiculous. They have literally done it to themselves.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Again pretty much nobody's against PvP only the pointless fly swatting, rp-less ganks and the attitude. You force the situation and they'll just go play something else.

It's not only you who has that option.

I think biggest split here is...for them it is about only thing about PvP they find exciting. They want prove they are best, they want compete.

Fact ED doesn't flow into that direction confuses them great deal.

 

[SuBSynk]

Well right now, its because who ever has the most time to put into their ships auto wins with stats. And it takes a LONG TIME to max out to be anywhere near our level.

But with 3.0 on the way. ALL OF THAT CHANGES. The playing field is now level. Lots of people will feel more comfortable because it doesnt take near the amount of time to reach max stats.

Also people dont PVP when it comes to powerplay and BGS because all of it is done with Hauling, and you can use solo and private for it.

The ship build for Open is at an disadvantage compared to what youd outfit for solo and private.

In solo and private you can strip all defenses, only engineer a FSD, and get triple the cargo space in a python in the just the 3 size 6 slots alone.

So there is no meaning to PVP here, even though if I were to kill you, not only would you lose rebuy, you would lose Rep for your faction and %'s for influence as well as time wasted for stacking missions. PVP does hold LOTS OF WEIGHT when it comes to powerplay and BGS.

Surprised you still think this about PvP affecting the BGS 90's.

Anytime spent trying to blockade or effect a player groups activities on the BGS is entirely wasted. Very few people trade to gain influence & destroying their cargo does not affect influence whatsoever. Killing NPC's would be way more effective in fact than hanging around looking for players to kill. They do not count as any faction therefore killing them does zero to the BGS. It may in fact do the opposite influence wise dependant on the system etc.

Now the most important part of why PvP cannot ever affect the BGS is because the core concept and design of Ed is heavily instanced based. You can avoid players most of the time on purpose or even by mistake -its kind of irrelevant- and thus the mode the players are in is just not important.

You may see a small percentage of the players moving through the system if their ping is suitable, they have not blocked you, the system is empty and various other factors all leading the system to place you in the same instance. You know this as a pvper. I have spent literally hours trying to instance with a players knowing full well we are in the same system etc. Pretending the game is something it isn't is unproductive. ED is basically a "co-op" or "small party" instance based system wrapped in "MMO" packaging.

Finally and more importantly the BGS is affected by various platforms Xbox, PC, PS4 & Mac. How does this mode debate even continue with this fact. You cannot ever affect the players on these platforms, even if you were on the platform you'll most likely not get in the same instance.

The whole system (BGS) is not build to be affected by PvP activities or even record them.

Nothing is stopping PvP players enjoying pvp. Usually the whole point is the thrill!

It just has nothing to do with the bgs

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You know if youd look at the history. Most of the PVPers want meaningful PVP in this game. But we cant have it because of the modes. So instead all we got is griefing and ganking.

No, existence of modes does not impede on having meaningful in-game PvP in any shape or form. You want to dominate, to win, to be best. This is not what PvP in ED is about. Just accept it.

The people holding back the changes to BGS and powerplay. Are literally funding Griefing and Ganking by not allowing meaningful PVP to exist.

Nothing to do with that.

This is called having their cake and eating it too.

No, it means FD and lot of players want PvP which doesn't involve measurements of who has bigger [censored].

They have back themselves into a corner.

The Irony here is ridiculous. They have literally done it to themselves.

LOL whut?

 

[Mohrgan]

You know if youd look at the history. Most of the PVPers want meaningful PVP in this game. But we cant have it because of the modes. So instead all we got is griefing and ganking.

The people holding back the changes to BGS and powerplay. Are literally funding Griefing and Ganking by not allowing meaningful PVP to exist.

This is called having their cake and eating it too.

They have backed themselves into a corner.

The Irony here is ridiculous. They have literally done it to themselves.

This is an example of: Blaming the Victim. Because I can't shoot at you, I'm going to shoot at anybody/everybody. Another reason not to like PvP.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Surprised you still think this about PvP affecting the BGS 90's.

Anytime spent trying to blockade or effect a player groups activities on the BGS is entirely wasted. Very few people trade to gain influence & destroying their cargo does not affect influence whatsoever. Killing NPC's would be way more effective in fact than hanging around looking for players to kill. They do not count as any faction therefore killing them does zero to the BGS. It may in fact do the opposite influence wise dependant on the system etc.

Now the most important part of why PvvP cannot ever affect the BGS is the core concept and design. Ed is heavily instanced, you can avoid players most of the time by mistake or on purpose -its kind of irrelevant- and thus the mode the players are in is just not important. You may see a small percentage of the players moving through the system if their ping is suitable, they have not blocked you, the system is empty and various other factors all leading the system to place you in the same instance. You know this as a pvper. I have spent literally hours trying to instance with a players knowing full well we are in the same system etc.

Finally and more importantly now the BGS is affected by various platforms Xbox, PC, PS4, "Mac". How does this debate even continue with this fact. You cannot ever affect the players on these platforms, even if you were on the platform you'll most likely not get in the same instance.

The whole system (BGS) is not build to be affected by PvP activities or even record them.

Nothing is stopping PvP players enjoying pvp. Usually the whole point is the thrill!

It just has nothing to do with the bgs

It 100% is. If I kill you with a stack of missions you lose. PERIOD. You get negative influence and if my team is successful. We get the influence in the transport and you dont.

IT HAS EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING to do with BGS and powerplay.

You should also be able to defend yourself against people attacking your system. And not with oh I gotta go farm because they did.

Frontier balance this game based of PVP. SHips BGS everything. What you are saying here is honestly wrong.

 

[Roybe]

Where PvP can shine, and be fun in ED is through organzied duels, where everyone participating knows excatly what they are getting into. Where there are some basic rules to ensuire fair play and balance. And both losers and winners after a fight can say "GG man, that was fun".

That is why i'm a strong supporter of the PvP hub and have worked alongside them to maintain their control of San Tu. Because while not being into PvP in ED myself, i think what they are doing is a great thing for PvP in ED. Plus i've had a few PvP battles with the guys and its been fun. And i'd recommend even the most ardent carebear to pop over there for a bit of a blast just for the fun of it. I'm sure if you let people know you were hopeless at PvP they would be happy to take a less powerful or experimental ship against you so that its fun for you as well.

I can get behind the hub...and even offer the PVP folks that want to really insure fair play that they can use a Private group to enhance that gameplay!

What I can't be bothered with is the demand for something 'more'. Give us our own server! Get those people out of Solo and Private Group and let us control them!

Those things will not ever occur....along with 90% of the other rubbish they go on about.

The game is what it is. There will definitely be improvements to the game...for everyone....but PVP will forever be the red headed step child in this game.

ED's "problem" is that people, even long term players, can be flying what are effectively flying coffins for PvP. While Rinzler's git gud guide to trading is useful, it only paints a partial picture. Not everyone is as good as Rinzler nor will ever be. Not everyone will face those circumnstances and handle them in the same way. Not everyone will react well. And in many cases, that trade ship is toast before you can even high wake, no matter how good you are. The video was produced under what could be called controlled circumstances, and i'm sure throw a few expereinced players at Rinzler in similar situations, and some will take him out.

This isn't a problem. If people want to fly a 'PVP coffin', do so. Just add the loss of such a ship into your cost of doing business. When the cost becomes to much...stop flying in Open. Add to this the idea that if everyone would let MoM™ let her children be competitive...then the perceived difference between Open and other modes would be squashed...and yet, every time the NPC's stand up...both the PVE people and PVP people throw salt...and then they nerf them. You can't have your cake and eat it to...

I am looking forward to the new C & P....because it will change the game...until everyone cries and it gets nerfed and we are back in the same boat!

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

This is an example of: Blaming the Victim. Because I can't shoot at you, I'm going to shoot at anybody/everybody. Another reason not to like PvP.

Thats what happened here. THATS ALL THERE IS. How do you not see that?

Thats all there is.

No, existence of modes does not impede on having meaningful in-game PvP in any shape or form. You want to dominate, to win, to be best. This is not what PvP in ED is about. Just accept it.



Nothing to do with that.



No, it means FD and lot of players want PvP which doesn't involve measurements of who has bigger [censored].



LOL whut?

EVERYTHING to do with it.

 

[frostypaw]

It 100% is. If I kill you with a stack of missions you lose. PERIOD. You get negative influence and if my team is successful. We get the influence in the transport and you dont.

IT HAS EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING to do with BGS and powerplay.

You should also be able to defend yourself against people attacking your system. And not with oh I gotta go farm because they did.

Frontier balance this game based of PVP. SHips BGS everything. What you are saying here is honestly wrong.

Or you see everything as a nail because you're a hammer. You see it all based around PvP, others see many colours.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You should also be able to defend yourself against people attacking your system.

It is not that kind of game. BGS is built to take into account that players can't stop other players, and fact is, no player really owns systems, stations or anything else.

This is not exclusive control game, or territorial control game. Never promised, never will be.

 

[Mohrgan]

Is too.

Is not.

Is too.

Time will tell.