PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm one of the 4 admins in the Hub.

Thought you were, but people without avatars are a blur. Some pages ago I was wondering about a promotional tournament like event. As you said, many reasons why PvP has a bad rep. Why not give it a reason for some good rep? Zeus knows your other affiliation has some experience creating waves.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

All it does is make sure that end game ships will survive ganks more often. Min-maxed traders will still die inside of 10 seconds, and the gankers will be gone long before ATR shows up.

It's kind of funny because the new system will actually encourage people to build gank-focused ships rather than a one-size-fits-all PvP ship. They'll have huge HD stacked shields and super high DPS weapons designed to kill as quickly as possible and get out. The ship I take to CGs will now be gank-focused rather than my normal FDL, so I'll be less inclined to do normal PvP there rather than just gank.

ATR is planned to be added to supercruise in next updates.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Drop the modes. They are here to stay and have nothing to do with why PvP is a bit poorly implemented in ED.
You don’t see Open players from Xbox or PS either.

As you say, ED is balanced around PvP. It’s also balanced around other activities.
The different parts of game aren’t looked at from a holistic perspective.
This leads to highly specialized builds being used for each activity. These builds often exclude secondary activities in that ship.

This is also the case for PvP and practically excludes all those who have another task in mind, at the moment. Just sitting in a PvP ship, excludes you from most other tasks.

Any task in a big game like ED will always be a minorty of the player base. PvP as a sub set of combat, will always be a small minorty.

In essence, PvP would be more popular If the game allowed it to be done as a secondary activity or at lest allowed other activities while in you PvP ship.

As long as we are allowed to undersize the FDS, don’t have slots restricted to cargo and fuel scoop and allow unlimited stacking of defensive modules, PvP will remain a side show.

Nope. Ill never drop it. Its the core issue of whats wrong here.

 

[ryan_m]

Thought you were, but people without avatars are a blur. Some pages ago I was wondering about a promotional tournament like event. As you said, many reasons why PvP has a bad rep. Why not give it a reason for some good rep? Zeus knows your other affiliation has some experience creating waves?

We actually did a weekend league in January and had a bunch of pick up teams enter. Went really well aside from a couple of hiccups. Towards the end of the month, we're going to be running an SRV Battle Royale as well, but haven't settled on a date yet. We'll be promoting it once we have that ironed out.

The plan is to run one event per month and have it be "sponsored" by a player group, as well as a weekend league every other month or so. For the weekend leagues, we do custom seeding to make sure that pick up teams don't end up fighting a top-ranked team in the first round and getting obliterated.

 

[Roybe]

Nope. Ill never drop it. Its the core issue of whats wrong here.

Wrong rock to pillory yourself on...what was that date you said you were leaving?

 

[nrage]

In essence, PvP would be more popular If the game allowed it to be done as a secondary activity or at lest allowed other activities while in you PvP ship.

They tried that, it was called CQC

 

[NeilF]

C&P won't do anything to alleviate ganking, so don't bet on that.

Of course it'll do something... The question is will be enough

 

[nrage]

C&P won't do anything to alleviate ganking, so don't bet on that.

I don't think it's intended to, not really. C&P's main goal was to make in-game in-lore consequences more balanced. It's the karma system which aims to alleviate the negative aspects of the game, including serial combat loggers and serial gankers alike.

 

[verminstar]

What you posted there is pretty interesting because it's actually put together for me one of the main reasons I don't bother with PVP and made a connection I hadn't really thought about consciously before.

First thing to say is that I didn't buy Elite Dangerous thinking about PVP primarily, or even mainly; it was never where the central appeal of the game lay for me and it never will be.

However I'm not in any way anti-PVP, I've been involved in PVP in games previously and enjoyed it and in a game I've been playing for over 2 years, which includes PVP, doesn't have any additional real-world cost associated with participating in it and in which I've got enough game cash to rebuy even my more expensive ships several times over, it's pretty bizarre that I've never found the motivation to even dip my toe in the water.

Your post made me realise, it's basically because the game just doesn't give me any reason to do it.

For most of my usual gameplay, a properly built PVP ship is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. Forget engineering requirements as they are now (pre-3.0) that doesn't even enter the equation to be honest - I've done grinding before in games and if the underlying motivation was there I could have done it in this game. Most of the time I'm not looking for combat when I play and although OK, I might run some missions that require it like assassinations or massacres, I don't need to use anything resembling a PVP-capable combat ship for those.

I don't fly around in shieldless ships or anything and although not all of my ships have weapons, they're all either built to be able to engage in combat or built to be able to evade it but regardless, every one of them would need significant compromises that would affect their effectiveness at doing the job I'm trying to do in them in order to make them viable for PVP. Note, by PVP I don't mean submitting and high-waking because that's not PVP, it's avoiding PVP. I mean actually taking on someone who interdicts me.

So given that there's pretty much no situation that would see me just flying around in a PVP capable ship whilst enjoying my everyday gameplay, that leaves us with gameplay that could prompt me to jump into a specifically built PVP ship.

So yeah. Where is it?

Powerplay is where I thought it would be when I started playing. Then I actually read up on it and realised that much of it has nothing to do with combat and is basically hauling. Considering that A > B trading is probably the activity you're least likely to find me doing, not a promising start. Then we have undermining, OK this is combat related. Oh but what's this, you can also do that in private or solo, against NPCs only?

Riiiiight. So basically, the only content the game provides which is even close to being specifically aimed at PVP can also be done without engaging in PVP at all and since it's obviously far easier against NPCs, the only things you change by doing it in open and looking for PVP are:

1) You significantly reduce the number of potential targets
2) You significantly increase the potential difficulty of any encounter
3) Due to both of those things, you ensure that you're going to be much less effective at it than someone doing it in private or solo

It's the last one that's the killer. 1) Isn't a problem if you're specifically looking for PVP because it doesn't matter how many NPCs are flying around, that's not what you're looking for anyway. 2) Is not only not a problem if you're looking for PVP, it's the entire point of it. 3) Is a problem though because the whole point of Powerplay is that it's supposed to be competitive, so you're in a situation of having to deliberately reduce your effectiveness at what you're trying to do in order to incorporate PVP.

All of which is the reason that I've always maintained PVP is either a complete afterthought in this game, or a victim of the game being designed by a company who admit they had no experience whatsoever with online gaming back at day one. The game actually provides disincentives for PVP in almost every conceivable situation.

Repped. Thats the real killer though, theres no reason to want or even tolerate pvp unless yer just in it fer the thrills n spills. There is no role play option of belonging to a superpower and being at war with another superpower, be that alien or human...or machines fer that matter. Theres no military progression system...no military full stop its a civilian pilots federation who couldnt care less what we do to each other cos we all one big happy family apparently.

Apart from self or small group inspired role play, what possible motive is there to want to kill others? Fer some, just the fact they can make things and players go boom is enough, but its personally not enough fer me. I need a reason to want to pvp...or to be a soldier in a military unit which is expected to fight and die. But here, its more like rich bounty hunter weekend or vigilante hour...its just pvp fer the hell of it...thats not enough.

I can role play with the best of them, but I cant just start imagining reasons compelling enough to sacrifice months of grind to be a reality...Im good but Im not that good. And that is a harsh reality of why pvp will remain a minority rich kid sport and not much else. And because of that, it will always have an image problem of salt farming and seal clubbing.

 

[nrage]

Nope. Ill never drop it. Its the core issue of whats wrong here.

Nah. The core issue is that Elite simply isn't a truly PvP game, it's much more of a one man/woman vs the big bad universe game. If that universe just happens to contain players who focus on PvP, so be it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

We actually did a weekend league in January and had a bunch of pick up teams enter. Went really well aside from a couple of hiccups. Towards the end of the month, we're going to be running an SRV Battle Royale as well, but haven't settled on a date yet. We'll be promoting it once we have that ironed out.

The plan is to run one event per month and have it be "sponsored" by a player group, as well as a weekend league every other month or so. For the weekend leagues, we do custom seeding to make sure that pick up teams don't end up fighting a top-ranked team in the first round and getting obliterated.

Excellent. Looking forward to seeing it.

 

[Red Anders]

Yeah, personally I think they should have had the three modes being completely independent. Open, Solo, and maybe even a dedicated PVE only. Even if they all take part in the same server simulation space, prevent people from crossing between them with the same ship or commander.

In the end though, that would just be another bandaid and might leave even fewer people in open than there are now. I suspect most people would go PVE and stay there. The way it is now with total freedom might be the only way to keep open populated.

Unfortunately I think they've already missed the boat with the solution.

Let's face it - the solution is the obvious one. Powerplay should have been open-only.

Trouble is, if this was six months before powerplay was introduced then yeah, I'd be here arguing that it should be open only. Unfortunately I wasn't even playing the game then. Now, there's no way that they could change it to be open-only because there would be an outcry and even attempts to provide benefits to engaging in powerplay activity in open, or the suggestion that it should, or could, be like that have prompted much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the past.

I've always thought way too much is made of the 'modes are equal' meaning 'everything must be in all modes'. Conceptually I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of some content being specifically designed to be played in a PVP-friendly environment, as long as there is also content which is specifically designed to be played in a PVE environment. There's no lack of equality there whatsoever because the issue isn't one of equality to begin with, it's just 'some stuff' and 'some other, different stuff'.

However I don't expect it will be too long before someone (or several someones) reads that and illustrates just how much of a minority that opinion places me in

 

[nrage]

What you posted there is pretty interesting because it's actually put together for me one of the main reasons I don't bother with PVP and made a connection I hadn't really thought about consciously before.

First thing to say is that I didn't buy Elite Dangerous thinking about PVP primarily, or even mainly; it was never where the central appeal of the game lay for me and it never will be.

However I'm not in any way anti-PVP, I've been involved in PVP in games previously and enjoyed it and in a game I've been playing for over 2 years, which includes PVP, doesn't have any additional real-world cost associated with participating in it and in which I've got enough game cash to rebuy even my more expensive ships several times over, it's pretty bizarre that I've never found the motivation to even dip my toe in the water.

Your post made me realise, it's basically because the game just doesn't give me any reason to do it.

For most of my usual gameplay, a properly built PVP ship is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike. Forget engineering requirements as they are now (pre-3.0) that doesn't even enter the equation to be honest - I've done grinding before in games and if the underlying motivation was there I could have done it in this game. Most of the time I'm not looking for combat when I play and although OK, I might run some missions that require it like assassinations or massacres, I don't need to use anything resembling a PVP-capable combat ship for those.

I don't fly around in shieldless ships or anything and although not all of my ships have weapons, they're all either built to be able to engage in combat or built to be able to evade it but regardless, every one of them would need significant compromises that would affect their effectiveness at doing the job I'm trying to do in them in order to make them viable for PVP. Note, by PVP I don't mean submitting and high-waking because that's not PVP, it's avoiding PVP. I mean actually taking on someone who interdicts me.

So given that there's pretty much no situation that would see me just flying around in a PVP capable ship whilst enjoying my everyday gameplay, that leaves us with gameplay that could prompt me to jump into a specifically built PVP ship.

This is exactly the issue for me also. There are so many other things to spend time doing in Elite, all of which are simply more appealing than what it offers in the way of PvP. That, plus I want to chose how I spend my time, not be forced into spending it doing something I don't really enjoy. This is why I liked CQC, I could decide to play, start it up and play, then quit when I had enough. It's a pity it's such a ghost town now.

 

[Han_Zen]

They tried that, it was called CQC

Try again. [big grin]

 

[Hossi]

For me there are two simple reasons why I rarely engage in PvP combat:

1. PvP isnt't even a proper part of the game. Its something glued on top of a PvE game as an afterthought to increase the potential customer base. People have called it 'optional' here, I would go a step further even and call it 'pointless'. Its not even that the game doesn't provide any reason for PvP combat, it actively excludes it from most in-game activitys.
Lets just look at the facts:

-Player bounties are ridiculous low. I wouldn't even leave the docking bay for these peanuts.
-For PP combat a PvP kill gets you one merit. A NPC gets you 30.
-PvP kills don't count for any mission
-Player ships don't even drop materials
-If you try to influence PP or the BGS by PvP actions, you are simply wasting your time

In short: PvP is a pointless waste of time at best, an expensive waste of time at worst.
Unless of course you simply enjoy blowing up other cmdrs, in this case just go ahead.

2. The power-level required to take part in PvP combat is much higher then that necessary for any PvE activity. Thats not a 'git gud' problem, or 'scary gankers' problem. Its just the issue of having the right tool for the job at hand. And the tool required for PvP combat with any chance of winning is completely useless for any other activity. I still have a completely engineered PvP corvette stored somewhere, I might even remember where I left it, but I definitely can't remember when I used it the last time. This thing doesnt even have a cargo bay, and in a HazRes you will run out of ammo after 15 minutes.

Now if I combine point 1 and 2 I see there two options for me
1. Fly around in a PvP ship, unable to do anything else then blow up other cmdrs (which will gain me nothing), which would mean that I'm forced to limit myself to a handfull of hotspot systems where I have an actual chance of meeting someone
2. Play the game the way I want to, do a little trading today, a bit of bountyhunting tommorow, hunt a few xenos on the weekend, make a nice exploration trip afterwards, maybee visit a alien site... you know 'blazing my own trail'. And when interdicted by a player, I raise my left eyebrow about 5mm, submit, boost, high wake and just go on as before

 

[Darty]

And because of that, it will always have an image problem of salt farming and seal clubbing.

Not to mention the fact that every other pvp player seems to have a youtube channel full of videos of themselves clubbing seals and griefing.

 

[Ktonos]

2. Solo mode kills PvP. That is regardless if solo mode is "right or wrong". I don't want to go there. But I think it is undisputed that Solo kills PvP.
3. Combat logging. Even if you want to engage a cmdr, first thing popping in the mind must be .. "even if I end up winning he might combat log". Again, the target might not do so, but the thought is there.

and finally,

1. When you engage a commander you have more to lose and less to gain compared to engaging an NPC.
There are few in game things to actually motivate you to attack another cmdr. I mean, what...he has a meagre bounty? No . I can find an npc with less skill and worse ship with a higher bounty. The only thing to gain is the satisfaction you killed something harder than an npc. At the same time chances you will get killed are higher. And if you get killed you will lose your insurance cost.

 

[frostypaw]

NAILED IT MY DUDE!

Does this mean you've realised it's not a PvP game too now?

It's possible but even if powerplay was Open only instancing issues and other design choices mean there's no way to make the hole square like the peg.

Accept what we can't change.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

But if I am let down, there are going to be LOTS of people leaving too for the same reason, that has no connection or influence from me..

here is the thing tho.... do you honestly think if FD announced tomorrow that PGs were being axed and solo (which has to stay due to console gamers without paying subs) would no longer be able to affect the BGS, do you not think that an even bigger mass of people would leave?.
I suspect FD are keeping quiet. Before he left ED Mike Brookes came on here and stated there was no intention of changing the match making filters (modes). Since then they have been quiet. my view, they STILL have no intention of changing them, however by keeping quite they are stopping people from moving on.

It is telling however (and disappointing) that you are pleased that it seems npcs are being dropped from the megaships and it is multiplayer content (not not PvP) only.

Frankly I AM tired of FDs removal of quality npc features in favour of MVP multiplayer stuff only, and I hope - much like you hope for pvp content - for the npc content in the DDF which was what got me to back the game.

 

[AbsinthSvK]

A lot of people here forget how meeting other player in game make unpredictable situations and that make game more deeper. Choosing to play alone cut your experience and experience to other people with you. Playing the same scrypted missions and fights with npc are fun for you? Well then, wait for developers make missions for you. Also, when this game hate pvp, please remove open mode and kill the hope. Still hoping this forum doesnt represent all players, i dont think that many players can hate interaction with humans.