No more high-range FSD buffs, thanks!

What exploration do we talking about in Elite? There is simply no such thing in the game.

After scanning 1-2 systems you have seen it all.... every next system is exact same boredom you have seen in the previous one.

You can get better exploration experience in the Walmart tbh when searching all items on your shopping list which was given by your wife and sent you away to complete the task.

If there were unknown.... and something what hidden and should be discovered by the commanders once they are there.... then yeah... that's exploration.

Currently in ED we have very very tedious way of traveling .... which suppose give the impression of big universe.

While I can slightly agree that FSD ranges do not need big buffs..... but looking at current way of traveling in bubble with ships I understand the desire to have those.

Simple solution could be for this like in the game I have played in the past.... which probably some of you familiar with the title.

Independence War 2: Edge of Chaos.

There were links/bridges between constellations which allowed to cover bigger distances inside know space.

So if FD could implement those inside the bubble at risonable locations then a lot of complaints about FSD will be gone.

Rep for simply mentioning I-War. :D

I loved their travel system. LDS felt fast (probably because the scale was all wrong), Lagrange Points were fun and great places to pirate from. Normal thrusters were also fun and unlimited.

I suggested a similar system for ED a while back, aswell as using navigation beacons to perform jumps not only to other systems, but also to other navigation beacons inside the same system.

Nav points then become a choke point for piracy, PvP, wars, etc, which ED sorely lacks.
 
I think jump range is pretty well balanced in the previous games - you can get ~40 LY out of a Gecko, possibly as much as ~60 LY out of a smaller fighter, but in either case, this means stripping out everything that isn't hyperdrive or fuel.

This makes such jumps possible, but only something you'd resort to in an emergency. For example, you mess up by accepting a deadline you can't make, and so have a chance to salvage your reputation and complete the mission by sacrificing your otherwise-perfect build, buying a Gecko with a drive, fuel, and nothing else (not even an autopilot or atmospheric shielding, let alone any weapons), and resigning yourself to re-buying your preferred ship upon mission completion.

Like the OP says, 'the game' is what happens when you have to deal with a finite jump range; reach the destination in 1 jump but arriving with scant weapons, or else do it in 2 or 3 jumps with a more practical loadout, but also a greater chance of needing to use it en route.


Don't wanna derail the thread but the epitome of this in ED, for me, has always been the design decision to slam stars in the player's face on every. single. jump. In previous Elites your hyperspace exit points were far from any nearby body - basically you enter the new system at a random location at about half the system radius, equidistant between the central star and the outermost planets, and then have to choose, as so-called 'pilot' of said ship, which star / planet / station you'd like shoved in your mug. So you can totally go to a star, if you wanna (tho if it's only for fuel-scooping a nearby gas giant might be easier and safer), but you have to actually "fly" the "spaceship" thru "space" to get there... So you're doing something, making conscious decisions, managing fuel and time and risk of interception, and then proximity and rate of approach to the giant ball of million-degree insta-death. Even in classic 8-bit Elite, making a close approach to a star was one of the little highlights of gameplay - on the Beeb there were only two types of planet - 'basket balls' & 'death stars' - both monochrome wireframes. But the stars were coloured! With yellow/red dithered fill! You could almost feel the heat coming off them as your cockpit temperature gauge climbed! In ED the thrill and spectacle of making close approaches to stars - but also, the challenge and freedom of choice of navigating across every system, as well as the continuity of travel from A to B - has been totally squandered and trivialised, and likewise the trial and achievement of scooping fuel directly from a star is now something that simply happens automatically on every jump, unless the player consciously acts to prevent it. LOL. And yet, ED players aren't allowed autopilots because that would supposedly devalue flight and navigation. Go figure.

I'll keep saying it - the bottom line in all this is that FD simply do not have the pulse of their own flagship title. None of ED's devs grew up devoted to Elite / FE2 / FFE - it's not their favorite game, and even Breadbins Himself seems to think it's just some spaceplanes and pew pew and what's the problem? Et voila, Elite, no? 'Accessible'. It's gotta be accessible eh, LOL... and what could be more accessible than a 60 LY jump range and then having every target star rammed in your face when you get there? Now go 'blaze your own trail' and stop complaining..

The last word in 'accesibility' is simply a tech demo. Elite's supposed to be a game..
 
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I just wanted to jump in and say that I'm impressed with the number of posts that are bringing up good points on both sides. Too many multi page threads seem to quickly degenerate into the 'your idea sucks' quality of responses.

Personally I agree with the idea that jump ranges shouldn't get any higher, although after reading some of the points posted I admit that I had only been thinking of long range exploration. What would the harm be if someone in a Vulture or Corvette could fly to meet a wing mate for some pew pew fun in the bubble in half the current number of jumps? Would it mean that a lot more would head out to kill explorers in the deep black, I'm not so sure. I think Jacks post pretty much nailed it. It's another in game mechanic that is unlikely to be able to please everybody.

Although every ship I own has a G5 FSD mod and I use jumponium when exploring on the fringes, I've never used a neutron boost and don't think I ever will. It made me a bit sad to see that someone reached Beagle in just a few hours but on the other hand it probably got some people to try exploration who previously wouldn't due to the time involved. Just an example of how I choose to treat a game mechanic that I don't personally agree with but can see why some do.

Good thread with constructive conversation!
 
FD seems to consistently conspire to devalue any individual achievement.

It originally was a vast unexplored galaxy, immense and unknown. Early explorers were legendary for having reached and documented journeys that took incredible internal fortitude and determination.

Nowdays

Everybody gets a ribbon

What it took was an unhealthy amount of time sat in a chair brainlessly hitting the same set of buttons over and over and over. Nothing more. Its not hard gameplay,its just long and boring.
 
Pretty sure the buffs that Frontier were mentioning were in regards to combat. The Asp was originally designed as a military vessel, and the current implementation is a bit squishy especially in a CZ situation. It could use sightly better internals for module protection and more base armor. Maybe a slightly better power distributor as well.
That's strange. Why call it Asp Explorer if it's for combat and not for exploration?
 
Ok, here's a thought experiment for you guys.
What if the FSD had different ranges based on mode?

Tethered jumps would be between systems with Nav Beacons - the hyperspace route is well understood and the FSD can optimize the jump allowing extra range - say 50% more than now.
Partially tethered jumps would be between a system with a Nav Beacon and one without, or vice versa - the route is partially known and the FSD has to work a bit harder - allows the current range.
Untethered jumps are between systems without Nav Beacons - the hyperspace route is not known and tests the FSD to its limits - resulting in pre-engineered type max ranges.
Jumponium and Neutron Boosts would still apply multipliers as currently.

Does this kind of system meet everyones needs for FSDs?

Fast travel in populated space.
Restored scale to unpopulated space.
 
FD seems to consistently conspire to devalue any individual achievement.

It originally was a vast unexplored galaxy, immense and unknown. Early explorers were legendary for having reached and documented journeys that took incredible internal fortitude and determination.

Nowdays

Everybody gets a ribbon

Hmmm. Done much long-range exploration have you?
 
Head to the top or the bottom of the galaxy. Plenty of adventure still to be had there. I spent 5 weeks wandering around the basement with a 66LY Anaconda; I had to do plenty of careful plotting to make sure I didn’t end up stuck somewhere.

Yep. This is why I love exploring on the fringes, the low star density makes exploration challenging and much more engaging to me.

On the topic of jump range creep, I do feel that after 3.0 the Anaconda's jump range potential should become a "hard limit" for ship jump ranges, meaning no other ships should ever jump measurably farther than the 3.0 Anaconda. Now, that said though, I'd personally like to see both of the exploration ships buffed slightly in order to match the Anaconda's jump range. I’ve done the math, if Frontier dropped the hull mass on the Asp X by 30T (from 280T to 250T) then it would jump identically to the Anaconda with regards to range. Similarly, if they dropped the hull mass on the DBX by 15T (from 260T to 245T) then it too would jump as far as the Anaconda. This would place all three ships on even ground for jump ranges when similarly outfitted and fully engineered for deep space exploration (ADS, DSS, AFMU, SRV, shield, and scoop), giving each of them about a 65ly jump range. I'd love that.
 
Hmmm. Done much long-range exploration have you?

I've done my share, both before and after Engineers and Neutron highways.

About 1.25 Million LY's worth over almost 50k Hyperspace Jumps

Not in league with the full-time explorers, but enough to know what it took early on compared to now.

They might as well just start everybody with a Billion CR's and Triple Elite
 
FD seems to consistently conspire to devalue any individual achievement.

It originally was a vast unexplored galaxy, immense and unknown. Early explorers were legendary for having reached and documented journeys that took incredible internal fortitude and determination.

Nowdays

Everybody gets a ribbon

Calm down Tenzing they were sitting at a pc and mashing some buttons every few seconds not climbing K2
 
I think OP is in the minority here. Larger jump range makes travel faster, which allows us to spend more time doing what we want. I'm all for larger jump range! FSD range increase is the 1 engineering blueprint I feel is required for every ship.

If you think you travel to fast, just change navigation to economic.
 
In my opinion all jump ranges can be increased 10X and this will not affect ANYTHING, this will only make the game less boring and more enjoyable.

"OH but this will kill exploring" WRONG!
Exploring i'ts not all about JUMPING, you forget about the most important part: in system cruise and explorers will jump short to scan max systems possible - This change will only affect TRAVELERs People that want to go from A to B.
 
I think OP is in the minority here. Larger jump range makes travel faster, which allows us to spend more time doing what we want. I'm all for larger jump range! FSD range increase is the 1 engineering blueprint I feel is required for every ship.

If you think you travel to fast, just change navigation to economic.

I guess it depends where people expect the limits to be set. Everyone has different limits so who is right and who is wrong? It used to be 40 light years max. Then synthesis made it 80, now neutron jumps give you 240. So why not make it 100 lights per jump. Or 1000. Why not get rid of jump range altogether and make all 400 billion stars 1 jump away? Some would love that and since it doesn't impact on anyone else's game, there should be no balance issues. We'll still not explore them all in our combined lifetimes if we could instantly jump anywhere. The same can be said for combat. Lets make it one shot one kill. And trade runs too. Let's make 1000% profit per run, any run. :)

Or lets realise there's merit in why games have hard limits on some things and understand why power creep can be detrimental?
 
If you think you travel to fast, just change navigation to economic.
For some it's not about the speed, but the illusion of distance. That illusion is persistent while it's there, but it's tenuous because it's based on nothing more than some very pretty graphics, a few on-screen numbers, and the fact that if it took a player x units of time to get where they are it'll take them x units to get back. There is a risk that making those numbers increase or decrease more quickly will break that illusion, at which point one of the game's USPs -- the 1:1 scale Milky Way -- becomes redundant or at least diminished.

You don't have to agree with that, or even understand the psychology behind it, but David Braben understood it and for the time being it seems that FD are broadly on the same page. They might change their minds at some point, but in the meantime it's important not to fall into the trap of thinking that all players who want to maintain relatively small FSD ranges are doing so because they want to "go slower" or for travel to be "more difficult."

For them, it's not about how quickly you can move through the galaxy but about how mindbogglingly big it appears to be when you're "out there". The two are obviously linked, but they're not the same thing.

FWIW I quite like MadDogMurdock's idea further up the thread, for increasing jump range within the bubble but keeping it small enough outside to maintain the distance illusion. It's not a perfect solution, but as I've said elsewhere the perfect solution doesn't exist. It does seem like a reasonable compromise though.

It would also make for a good reason to explore, especially in Colonia and in those systems around the edges of both bubbles. We could have CGs to construct nav beacons (or even a semi-automatic system whereby if a given number of CMDRs sells the data for a system it gets a beacon automatically) which would decrease the travel time between those systems and so speed the expansion of the frontier.
 
Is this another one of those “I like things difficult, therefore they should be difficult for everybody” threads? Such a selfish mindset.

More a lament that the improvements to travel that make life easier getting about the bubble was never counter balanced with things to maintain the challenge and feeling of accomplishment when exploring the great unknown.

It isn't about slower travel but about making the journey more meaningful an exercise in navigation and planning when out in the black whilst not losing the QoL that those who are just travelling from A to B in known areas can do so without feeling like it is too much a chore.

An trip in the bubble should be different from at trip to a far off star Cluster.
 
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