Target Lock Breaker spamming needs adjusted ASAP

the thing i hope with TLB is - that they won't add a thermal REDUCTION modifer to the effect with 3.0 release...
but somehow i think they will do that for the grandfatherings sake...
 
As this thread has long since become a more general discussion about the position of Big Ships in PvP, I'd like to spell out what I think Frontier's fundamental problem is here:

Frontier have had to give Big Ships ludicrous hit points because they haven't given them anything else.

I returned to Big Ship PvP in Beta 3.0 after a long absence in smalls and mediums ... but in 1.3 and 1.4 I flew a full-fixed max spec Anaconda.

Nothing much has really changed. TLB, cascade on the one hand ... HD booster stacking on the other hand ... it all comes back to the same thing.

The Big Ship elephant has more hit points than the tigers and wolves it faces. That's it, nothing else. More DPS? Don't make me laugh, it's not much higher in alpha and the effective sustained DPS is barely any more than Python, Clipper, FdL, FAS or now Chieftain. DPE? Same point, it's barely higher.

Once you take that all into account, then assuming competent, evasive, PvP pilots, the true 'on target' DPS is pitiful even in a 1v1.

And yet the Big Ship probably wins anyway. How? Via the game's two biggest crutches: inflated base shield and NPC aimbot SLF. Both of which by definition require no input from the player.

Take away either of those and it's just flying joke territory.

It's a shame because the Big Ship could be so much more.

Four proposals:

(1) Make weapon range scale by weapon size.

How has this never been a thing? 16 inch battleship guns do not have the same range as 8 inch guns.

When a Viper pulls a Corvette and laughs at him, the Viper's c2 lasers shouldn't have the same range as Corvette c4. When the Viper runs he should be taking smack to 6 km without modding, 12 km with long range.

(2) Introduce the full range of existing weapon variants across all sizes and combine with the range point above.

And make 'em nasty.

Yes I do mean c4 frags with eye-watering burst damage and an effective range approaching 1 km.

And I sure do mean multi-launch c4 dumbfire racks modded for penetrator special. Get in front of one (or two) of those in a hull tank or hybrid and you should expect to see what's left of your plant leaving through your canopy.

(3) Put a proper power curve on distributor size capacity and recharge.

The trivial current differences are why what I say at (1) and (2) above would actually help some mediums as much as the Big 3, otherwise. It has to be a suite of changes. Size 7 and 8 PD should really mean something, like with SCB's.

(4) Nerf the silly shield hit points.

But the point is, with bringing out the new smack, as above.

I'm not arguing for glass cannons. But I am arguing for credible threat.

A Big Ship dropping into a fight in a wake should be a moment of real threat. And there should be real threat to the Big Ship also.

I'm arguing for excitement. Unlike the current position in which there is literally nothing less threatening, nor less threatened, than the safe yet harmless, hapless, blind, cuddly, invulnerable, impotent, Big Friendly Giant.

Darnit - can't rep you for this. Everything here sounds very good - especially point #4. Some questions I have:

  • Back some time ago we had those combat Betas where the large ship Hardness values were increased. Would increasing the Hardness values for these ships help put them in a better position or would this simply result in shifting the massive HP pool into the hull?
  • Would increasing the charge rate/capacity of the Engine capacitor lead to permaboosting more than it already does? (Thinking a Cutter here boosting continuously at 515 m/s in the Beyond Beta, a Corvette with a boost pitch rate beyond that of an A-rated iEagle's normal pitch rate.)
  • Does a 3500 MJ Prismatic shield (4 HD boosters, no mods on the generator itself) fall into the "overinflated range?" (I know Prismatics can be boosted to truly silly levels, but I run Armored Powerplants so I don't have much spare power to work with - even with a +7% Power secondary. Just asking out of curiosity.)
  • Assuming that these proposals are implemented, would TLB need adjusting or should it be left alone as it is now?
 
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Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
the thing i hope with TLB is - that they won't add a thermal REDUCTION modifer to the effect with 3.0 release...
but somehow i think they will do that for the grandfatherings sake...
It's unfortunately not so much a case of "will do", but rather "have to."
Like the Rail Guns, they absolutely cannot present PAs in 3.0 that don't have the reductions available in 2.4. New players need to be able to acquire modifications that are atleast as good as those already in the game.

But I digress...we've already had this discussion several times over in the Focused Feedback sub :(
 
It's unfortunately not so much a case of "will do", but rather "have to."
Like the Rail Guns, they absolutely cannot present PAs in 3.0 that don't have the reductions available in 2.4. New players need to be able to acquire modifications that are atleast as good as those already in the game.

But I digress...we've already had this discussion several times over in the Focused Feedback sub :(

I mean they COULD just scratch the whole grandfathering idea and focus instead on re-balancing every blueprint so that we don't have any of the broken builds like super shields or railguns without heat generation. But that would require them to make a hard decision which won't happen.
 
"More DPS? Don't make me laugh"

That's my impression too. I sometimes feel that my Python has even more fire power than my well engineered Federal Corvette, where the only benefit of the Corvette is that it can do continous fire while the Python needs a little break now and then to cool down or to get its weapons capacitor recharged.
 
Simply as it doesnt have any downsides as many other effects have (or had, FDev seems to reduce downsides more and more...), so everyone using plasmas just has it.

That's true. It's the default plasma special because of it's utility plus the fact that it doesn't really have any negatives.

It would be a lot less popular if it reduced damage, rate of fire, or projectile speed.

Back some time ago we had those combat Betas where the large ship Hardness values were increased. Would increasing the Hardness values for these ships help put them in a better position or would this simply result in shifting the massive HP pool into the hull?

It shifts the pool to the hull, but this would still be a positive change because damage to the hull can also damage modules, making the effects more uncertain and that hull integrity pool less reliable than a massive pool of shielding.

Certainty, especially that which is enabled by passivity, doesn't make for very interesting combat. Fighting with hull focused setups, especially ones that are slower than their opponents, is a lot more fun and a lot more risky than a shield focused setup. Positioning is important because some modules are more vulnerable from certain angles and one mistake, or one lucky shot, can force one to change one's plans or turn a sure victory into a fight for survival.

Shields are binary and predictable. You can look at the loadout of your opponents and know to within a handful of seconds how long you are guaranteed to have before you have to leave, and nothing they can do can cause you problems before that threshold unless they have one of the few hard counters to shields.
 
That's my impression too. I sometimes feel that my Python has even more fire power than my well engineered Federal Corvette, where the only benefit of the Corvette is that it can do continous fire while the Python needs a little break now and then to cool down or to get its weapons capacitor recharged.

Yep, a 7A unmodded distro with 2 pips puts out 3.05 Mw, an 8A ... 3.60 Mw. That's it.

My 1.3 and 1.4 Anaconda was undefeated 1v1 but against the best Pythons, merely by virtue of longevity. We usually had more or less the same loadouts (predominantly fixed pulses lasers, occasionally supplemented by rails or multis). Once all their SCB's had run out I had a few left, that was all. This was so even in one 'memorable' encounter outside Ackerman Market in Eravate, when my opponent and I eventually both tacitly agreed to stop moving due to pilot fatigue, and merely sat facing each other until it was finally over.

Some questions I have:

  • Back some time ago we had those combat Betas where the large ship Hardness values were increased. Would increasing the Hardness values for these ships help put them in a better position or would this simply result in shifting the massive HP pool into the hull?
Fighting with hull focused setups, especially ones that are slower than their opponents, is a lot more fun and a lot more risky than a shield focused setup. Positioning is important because some modules are more vulnerable from certain angles and one mistake, or one lucky shot, can force one to change one's plans or turn a sure victory into a fight for survival.

I totally agree with @Morbad about the fun to be had here, and Morbad puts his money where his mouth is by running pretty much serious PvP's only hull-orientated Corvette in Live.

I'm afraid though, that against the right weapon setup, even with the Beta 2.3 hull hardnesses of 210, the 'massive HP pool' just isn't that massive.

Plasma and rails have APV of 100. Current HH for the Corvette and Cutter is 70. In other words, plasma and rails currently do full damage to every ship's hull but under the proposed change would do half damage (this is the same to modules).

The problem though is that half damage of a lot of damage is still a lot of damage. A meta-FdL-wing running all plasma'n'rails is going to kill a huge ship quickly regardless. One partial fix might be for Frontier to release the size 6, 7 and 8 HRP's, scaled in an exponential like SCB's. At present a hull-tanked Corvette has not much more than double the hp of a hull-tanked Viper IV or Cobra III, which is kind of crazy.


  • Would increasing the charge rate/capacity of the Engine capacitor lead to permaboosting more than it already does? (Thinking a Cutter here boosting continuously at 515 m/s in the Beyond Beta, a Corvette with a boost pitch rate beyond that of an A-rated iEagle's normal pitch rate.)
Potentially, I suppose. Perma-boost isn't possible with 4 pips to Sys. But if other changes moved pips out of Sys, maybe yes. A good question for sure, but I think the sort of tuning issue that would become relevant in a Beta if Frontier ever went down this route.

  • Does a 3500 MJ Prismatic shield (4 HD boosters, no mods on the generator itself) fall into the "overinflated range?" (I know Prismatics can be boosted to truly silly levels, but I run Armored Powerplants so I don't have much spare power to work with - even with a +7% Power secondary. Just asking out of curiosity.)
Do you mean on Corvette? If so, I hope you won't mind me being candid, but assuming that you're other 4 utilities don't have boosters in, I'm afraid that in serious PvP you're into vulnerable territory here. Your unmodded prismatic with only HD boosters has stock thermal resists (i.e. bad) meaning you'll take major damage from the 66.6% thermal component of rail gun fire and (admittedly less) the 20% plasma component. That's not a problem provided you have the raw Mj to make up for it - but think 10,000 Mj Cutter if you want to go down that route. If you want to run a small shield, at least make it one with high resists ... although you'll then have to be very wary of plasma and ramming.


  • Assuming that these proposals are implemented, would TLB need adjusting or should it be left alone as it is now?

TLB should be adjusted regardless, probably imo to make it have somewhat reduced uptime against larger ships, mediums roughly as now, and somewhat increased uptime against smaller ships.

The issue with TLB is not so much it's outcome - I hope that (e.g.) Morbad and myself have made it clear that the big ship can win suitable fights regardless - it's that it raises the 'red balance flag' of any special that's out of line with the effectiveness of all the others ... in that you have to build most of the gameplan around dealing with it. That's disproportionate.

Precisely the same applied to the infamous heat meta. It wasn't a fight-winner 1v1 ... in fact if fully stacked it was actually quite laughably easy to beat 1v1, in every single stage of its development, right from the initial Beta 2.1 incarnation, when 8,000%+ heat was possible. I beat every guy who jumped me with heat in the first and worst Beta incarnation, except for one Gunship who caught me while I was typing to someone, who I then got on the rebound. You just needed to base your gameplan around dealing with this one type of special. But that was disproportionate.
 
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I'm afraid though, that against the right weapon setup, even with the Beta 2.3 hull hardnesses of 210, the 'massive HP pool' just isn't that massive.

Plasma and rails have APV of 100. Current HH for the Corvette and Cutter is 70. In other words, plasma and rails currently do full damage to every ship's hull but under the proposed change would do half damage (this is the same to modules).

The problem though is that half damage of a lot of damage is still a lot of damage. A meta-FdL-wing running all plasma'n'rails is going to kill a huge ship quickly regardless. One partial fix might be for Frontier to release the size 6, 7 and 8 HRP's, scaled in an exponential like SCB's. At present a hull-tanked Corvette has not much more than double the hp of a hull-tanked Viper IV or Cobra III, which is kind of crazy.

I think the problem here isn't the lack of large HRPs (otherwise you will end back at the infinite HP problem) but how the FDL buff (easy fitting) combined with engineering (efficient, low heat rails & PA's) made high dps weapons so very spamable.
If engineering didn't reduce rail/PA heat & powerdraw so much (and boost capacitor regen) you couldn't fit 5 on a FDL and be expected to deliver continuous fire. I recall that before engineering, fitting 2 rails and some lasers on a Python was a big deal, so much so you needed a couple of heat sinks just to keep up fire without overheating.

I feel like a cynical old fart for saying this, but the weapons/ship interaction constraints were way better back then. Limitations make choices meaningfull, and this all-you-can-fit-and-shoot bonanza makes it all so boring. It used to be that having a high powerdraw on modules was a drawback to prevent fitting all of them (f.e. fitting rails and PA's meant no big shield/SCBs because no grid to power it all). Now it just means you need to do some more engineering to make it fit..

Shields losing the drawback of thermal vulnerability made lasers useless overnight (Because the drawbacks over kinetics were no longer worth it)
Rails& PAs losing the drawback of poor fitting, high cap use, high heat gen and low ammo made them (While also getting 1 mandatory and 1 very usefull special) the defacto weapon of choice.
Torpedos and mines are only used for the specials, the base weapons have so little value
Missiles have the benefit of dealing decent external damage, but compete with the ammo pool of HYS cannons which surpass them by dealing with all modules quickly. (Yay, more specials ruining another weapons niche)

And the pattern where FD keep adding new modules to deal with problems with old modules makes no sense, rather then bringing the old ones back in line. That resulted in all ships but FDL getting military slots, because no one could fit what they needed anymore (also a subtle hint that the FDL buff was a 'bit' over the top).
 
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I think the problem here isn't the lack of large HRPs (otherwise you will end back at the infinite HP problem) but how the FDL buff (easy fitting) combined with engineering (efficient, low heat rails & PA's) made high dps weapons so very spamable.

(...)

It used to be that having a high powerdraw on modules was a drawback to prevent fitting all of them (f.e. fitting rails and PA's meant no big shield/SCBs because no grid to power it all). Now it just means you need to do some more engineering to make it fit..

The most successful FdL pilots in this game, from Deathgrips (Oddisee), to Alexander the Grape, to Pipko, all said that the FdL should have stayed at a size 5 Powerplant.

They were right. They're still right.

Apart from anything else, FdL outfitting was once the best AFK mini-game in the game. It felt like doing a sudoku or something.
 
The most successful FdL pilots in this game, from Deathgrips (Oddisee), to Alexander the Grape, to Pipko, all said that the FdL should have stayed at a size 5 Powerplant.

They were right. They're still right.

Apart from anything else, FdL outfitting was once the best AFK mini-game in the game. It felt like doing a sudoku or something.
Its why I love the Viper mk3 so much, its still the same. Thinking of different fits and trying them, to get it to do everything you want with the tradeoffs just right.

The old FDL also needed to be really on point with pip management to maneuver with the smaller ships, now not so much anymore.

Anyway, sorry for the derail.
 
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Do you even know what you are talking about? If it is a single player game, then obtaining the most expensive or rarest weapons and armors should make you extremely powerful, yes you should be able to laugh at enemies with poor equipments. And this is exactly what's going on in ED PVE. Fully modded big ships are simply invincible.

But it is PVP we are talking abouthere. People should laugh at their foes when they have superior skills or tactics, not "my ship is X time more expensive than yours". While you spent your time delivering data for your rank, passengers for your bank account, cargos for the engineer or mats for your mod, others were practicing their flying, aiming and pip managements(they also need to grind cr, mats for mods and some ranks, just not as much as you do, and they need to unlock the same engineers). All I see is "My way is the best way, and I should be able to laugh at others because they are using some different method."

Skillful pilots should be effective to some degree at tackling multiple foes.

Again, this has nothing to do with the original post nor me saying my way is the best way. This has all gone way off course and for that reason I won't emphasise further my desire to see TLB adjusted.

For your information I can and do tackle multiple foes quite well, I just wanted to highlight the problem with TLB as a whole without there being any cool down or anything in play with that special effect when up against a group utilising it.
 
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I didn't know about this effect before but it seems a tad overpowered. That's the problem when magical effects are introduced in a space game.

Instead of a cool-down, how about just changing the probability of the effect?
Like the weapon with this effect has a 10% chance to break the targets 'target lock'.
 
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Honestly I think the game would be better if they removed every debuff/special effect experimental including feedback and reverb cascade. The only "good" (as in not brokenly OP) experimentals IMO are the ones that change damage types with additional positives and negatives, or add heat damage. This whole meta of putting a butt ton of magical debuf spells on your weapons is just stupid. If shields are a problem add some engineering mods that give +150% DPS at g5 but a 50% cut in armor piercing, creating a weapon that is more effective against shields than most weapons, but crap against most hull tanks. To top it off, give some weapons an experimental that converts some of certain weapons damage to absolute, but again decreases their armor piercing (but by a small amount) and there you go, super-shields have a viable counter that isn't just "lol 2 torpedoes hit you now you can't use your shields", hull tanks have become much more viable (due to the effective armor buff and the removal of all the special effects that kill hull tanks) and players will have actual dilemma when it comes to what weapons to use and what mods to put on them.

I mostly agree, however I think some utility experimentals could stay as well (e.g. auto-loader, smart rounds, plasma slug).
 
I didn't know about this effect before but it seems a tad overpowered. That's the problem when magical effects are introduced in a space game.

Instead of a cool-down, how about just changing the probability of the effect?
Like the weapon with this effect has a 10% chance to break the targets 'target lock'.

A flat 10% would be too little. Maybe a diminishing effectiveness (i.e. guaranteed break on first few hits, then 80% chance after more, etc)
 
Again, this has nothing to do with the original post nor me saying my way is the best way. This has all gone way off course and for that reason I won't emphasise further my desire to see TLB adjusted.

For your information I can and do tackle multiple foes quite well, I just wanted to highlight the problem with TLB as a whole without there being any cool down or anything in play with that special effect when up against a group utilising it.

A lot of people have already pointed out that you need a wing to fight against a wing. Big ships already have much greater survivability compared to smaller ships that doesn't require any use of skill. So a whole wing using the hardest to use weapons making large ships unable to fire back isn't something that requires fixing.
 

Powderpanic

Banned
A lot of people have already pointed out that you need a wing to fight against a wing. Big ships already have much greater survivability compared to smaller ships that doesn't require any use of skill. So a whole wing using the hardest to use weapons making large ships unable to fire back isn't something that requires fixing.

I would agree with you if that didn't make the big ship entirely useless in this given situation. Also hitting a lumbering hulk with a PA, is child's play.

But I think you and I have agreed before that a lot more needs fixing then just lock breaker. But hey, you gotta start somewhere.
 
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I would agree with you if that didn't make the big ship entirely useless in this given situation. Also hitting a lumbering hulk with a PA, is child's play.

But I think you and I have agreed before that a lot more needs fixing then just lock breaker. But hey, you gotta start somewhere.

Well altho i think TLB is fine as it is now, if FD would give hull tanks some more effective countermeasures to deal with missiles, I actually don't mind a small period of cool down time at all, even 10 seconds if the countermeasures are really good (or simply nerf missiles' external module damage). Now point defense and ecm are literally waste of utility slots for a hull tank, since they are counter by missiles themselves.

And let's pretend there is nothing to do with FDL, it's like the biological son and other ships are all adopted children.
 
I'm afraid though, that against the right weapon setup, even with the Beta 2.3 hull hardnesses of 210, the 'massive HP pool' just isn't that massive.

Plasma and rails have APV of 100. Current HH for the Corvette and Cutter is 70. In other words, plasma and rails currently do full damage to every ship's hull but under the proposed change would do half damage (this is the same to modules).

I think the change to plasma and rail penetration values is a significant part of what's made them super weapons and should be reverted or reevaluated.

That even small rails and medium PAs can ignore all hull rating damage reductions in the game without any penetration augmenting mods is pretty silly, IMO. Not only does this make them overly potent vs. larger vessels hulls, it greatly exacerbates the issues of long range module sniping.

One partial fix might be for Frontier to release the size 6, 7 and 8 HRP's, scaled in an exponential like SCB's. At present a hull-tanked Corvette has not much more than double the hp of a hull-tanked Viper IV or Cobra III, which is kind of crazy.

I don't have a huge problem with HRPs not scaling the same way SCBs do; it does make sense that it takes a greater mass of armor to adequately protect a larger volume to the same degree.

However, I do feel that HRPs offer a bit too much protection at the low-end, and don't scale quite enough at the high-end.

I didn't know about this effect before but it seems a tad overpowered. That's the problem when magical effects are introduced in a space game.

TLB is probably one of the more plausible of the effects we've got. Temporarily blinding sensors has been a thing in reality forever.
 
I think the change to plasma and rail penetration values is a significant part of what's made them super weapons and should be reverted or reevaluated.

That even small rails and medium PAs can ignore all hull rating damage reductions in the game without any penetration augmenting mods is pretty silly, IMO. Not only does this make them overly potent vs. larger vessels hulls, it greatly exacerbates the issues of long range module sniping.



I don't have a huge problem with HRPs not scaling the same way SCBs do; it does make sense that it takes a greater mass of armor to adequately protect a larger volume to the same degree.

However, I do feel that HRPs offer a bit too much protection at the low-end, and don't scale quite enough at the high-end.



TLB is probably one of the more plausible of the effects we've got. Temporarily blinding sensors has been a thing in reality forever.

Regarding the bit on armor pen on rails & PAs (cutting down quotes is a pain on mobile), I think rails are fine as-is. I'd be content with PAs losing some of their AP, since they have so many positives that make them meta currently
 
The problem though is that half damage of a lot of damage is still a lot of damage. A meta-FdL-wing running all plasma'n'rails is going to kill a huge ship quickly regardless. One partial fix might be for Frontier to release the size 6, 7 and 8 HRP's, scaled in an exponential like SCB's. At present a hull-tanked Corvette has not much more than double the hp of a hull-tanked Viper IV or Cobra III, which is kind of crazy.

Dude, no. That situation is 100% caused by the existence of HRPs. If HRPs did not exist, those ships would have a much more apparent hitpoint gap. Adding more HRPs would be going deeper down the rabbit hole, which is the *exact opposite direction that we should ask Fdev to go in*.

Instead, remove the HRPs.

The state of combat in Elite is such that reduction would add far more to the game, than trying to keep adding more to the spiraling leapfrogging pandora's box of power creep, which includes the hitpoint inflation problem.

I actually would highly prefer if there were no shield boosters, no SCBs, no HRPs, and no bloody +70% dps-per-weapon Engineer blueprints. It would make pulling levers to try and balance things far easier and more sensible.

__


I didn't know about this effect before but it seems a tad overpowered. That's the problem when magical effects are introduced in a space game.

Instead of a cool-down, how about just changing the probability of the effect?
Like the weapon with this effect has a 10% chance to break the targets 'target lock'.

More RNG is NOT the answer.
 
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