Beyond did literally nothing to help the grind.

[Shoklar]

RNG has never been popular and the new 3.0 has made it less grindy. That said, if it feels a grind and you're having bad luck. Do what I do, go do something else for a bit and come back to it later. I certainly wouldn't like the system changed any more as it does feel a good accomplishment to get something grade 5. Too easy would be pointless.

 

[Red Anders]

RNG has never been popular and the new 3.0 has made it less grindy. That said, if it feels a grind and you're having bad luck. Do what I do, go do something else for a bit and come back to it later. I certainly wouldn't like the system changed any more as it does feel a good accomplishment to get something grade 5. Too easy would be pointless.

I guess that's where we differ because to me, the two hours I spent trying to get some abnormal compact emissions data yesterday without any success at all felt pointless. Mainly because it was in fact pointless.

As for going doing something else 'for a bit' I'm trying to finish off engineering one ship before heading off on what will probably be a lengthy exploration trip.

Really, the point here is that although 3.0 has successfully addressed the grind for most mats, the remaining choke-point is a handful of manufactured materials that require the player to cause HGE USS to spawn and, because they are Top-of-Row, are difficult to trade for.

Hopefully Frontier will in due course bring said choke-point more into line with the other materials. It's a particularly frustrating choke-point for many Cmdrs because once a few simple rules are known and followed, it really is just a loot box mechanic that the punter cannot affect or enhance.

It's refreshing to see that someone is actually capable of reading the words on the screen and identifying the actual issue raised, rather than spouting nonsense about people expecting to engineer a fleet in a week and then wondering why people laugh when they say they're offering an alternative point of view to that.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

"Stop using large portions of the games content and you won't have a problem"

While i can see your position on the matter I would hardly call OPEN a large portion of the games content compared to solo.

- Wings
- PVP
- Co-Op
- Multicrew

I mean, that's basically it and the multicrew you can hire an NPC for.

 

[BDelacroix]

I have had exactly the opposite experience. I pick up every thing when out and about (oot and aboot?). I've been able to nearly fully engineer both my cutter and new chieftain. I do need to get some more planet rocks (minerals) but in the end it the traders and engineering has worked rather well to alleviate the grind. I've been able to mostly just play.

I've even been able to mostly keep up on the insurance funds.

I'd point out, too, that I find the engineering secondary effects actually contain "interesting choices" in at least some cases.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You literally have to if you want to be competitive in open so that's pretty bad advice.

That's your perception really. I play in Open in measly Cobra.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Really, the point here is that although 3.0 has successfully addressed the grind for most mats, the remaining choke-point is a handful of manufactured materials that require the player to cause HGE USS to spawn and, because they are Top-of-Row, are difficult to trade for.

Hopefully Frontier will in due course bring said choke-point more into line with the other materials. It's a particularly frustrating choke-point for many Cmdrs because once a few simple rules are known and followed, it really is just a loot box mechanic that the punter cannot affect or enhance.

It really hasn't addressed the materials grind - the fact is that unless you were a min/maxer, you now need more materials than before.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

The Grind is still there, its just "different" *all based on some guess work and experience modding a FSD

2.4 FSD grade 5

1x Arsenic
1x Chemical Manipulator
1x Datamined wake exception

Chance of getting a god roll? well 20 or so rolls would get you a decent drive in my experience of many many many many many many many many many rolls, i even know people (me included) who have rolled 3 times for a 50% drive, on the flip side i rolled a god 56% drive on roll 12, and 250 rolls later never repeated that)

3.0 FSD grade 5 (and lets compare like for like shall we from stock)

~2 rolls @

1x Atypical Disrupted wake echoes

~ 3 rolls @

1x Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes
1x Chemical Processors

~3 rolls @

1x Phosphorus
1x Chemical Processors
1x Strange Wake Solutions


~4 rolls @

1x Manganese
1x Chemical Distillery
1x Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories

~5 or 6 rolls @

1x Arsenic
1x Chemical Manipulators
1x Datamined Wake Exceptions

so lets sub total that

5x Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes
7x Chemical Processors
3x Strange Wake Solutions
4x Manganese
4x Chemical Distillery
4x Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories
5x Arsenic
5x Chemical Manipulators
5x Datamined Wake Exceptions

~42 materials, a large shopping list of silly names all found in various locations which you need support of 3rd party apps and this very forum to simplify it

Material traders do help, but the exchange is awful, and again you need to fly around to find them or search via 3rd party apps (theme occurring here)

gathering certain materials is a right pain, especially as there is always a certain way, for example... Arsenic, well just go to a certain barnacle site and you'll be swimming in the stuff, play the game properly and search on a 2.5% rock and the RNG could leave you only a handful of arsenic after 3 hours.

Experience in 2.4;

Fly to system X harvest 20 chem manips, while also scanning wakes for 20 datamind whatevers
Fly to system Y for the arsenic fountain

Total time - about IME an hour for 20 goes on the slot machine (major downside is you could walk away with nothing... that's right NOTHING and have to repeat the above over and over again)

Experience in 3.0:

research and create a complicated spreadsheet of where you need to go

Fly to system A for material Z
Fly to system B for material Y
Fly to system C for material X
Fly to system D for material W
Fly to system E for material V
Fly to system F for material U
Fly to system G for material T
Fly to system H for material S
Fly to system I for material R
Fly to system J for material Q
Fly to system K for material P

Fly back to engineer to mod drive

OR;

Research and create a complicated spreadsheet of where you need to go


Fly to system A for material Z
Fly to system B for material Y
Fly to system C for material X
Trade material D for material F
Trade material F for material H
Trade material K for material T
Trade material W for material P

Fly to system A1 for trader B2

Trade material Z for material F
Trade material B for material H
Trade material H for material T
Trade material F for material P

Fly to system A2 for trader B2

Trade material C for material W
Trade material W for material V

Fly back to engineer to finally engineer the drive

Time to do above :O could be hours... Excitement factor of doing the above and spending all that time in SC (the most fun thing in ED) 0
Chance of getting a guaranteed good drive 100%

Its a double edged sword the system still sucks worse than standing on lego in the dark, but you ARE GUARANTEED to get a good drive at the end of it, IMO frontier need to make it more user friendly via simpler trading & less materials all this flying about is soul destroying, that said ii have G5 everything, it certainly wasn't enjoyable "game-play" though, just a grind of a different kind, both systems were an awful experience and detracted away from enjoyable game-play.

i have a preference for 3.0 but only because its guaranteed results rather than a magic wand, but that's the only improvement.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

What in heavens name made you think Frontier would REDUCE grind?

- Powerplay = Grind
- Engineers = Grind

 

[Truesilver]

Really, the point here is that although 3.0 has successfully addressed the grind for most mats, the remaining choke-point is a handful of manufactured materials that require the player to cause HGE USS to spawn and, because they are Top-of-Row, are difficult to trade for.

It really hasn't addressed the materials grind - the fact is that unless you were a min/maxer, you now need more materials than before.

I am, indeed, a min/maxer of the Nth degree, meaning that I'm at one end of the spectrum on this thing.

Now, even taking that on board...

The Grind is still there, its just "different" *all based on some guess work and experience modding a FSD

(...detailed analysis...)

Its a double edged sword the system still sucks worse than standing on lego in the dark, but you ARE GUARANTEED to get a good drive at the end of it

... I'm afraid 3.0 still doesn't seem very double-edged to me.

From pure personal experience, I this morning completed my 100% hard-ceilinged PvP better-than-god-rolled ship in a total RL time taken of almost exactly 10 hours.

I repeat: 10 hours of my RL time to go from vanilla to full min/maxed.

I certainly screwed up enough times (forgetting to bring mats for the experimentals, miscounting, you name it) and hence now that I know what I'm doing could do that a lot quicker.

But for a guy who just wants a decent but not better-than-god-rolled general purpose ship, with 1 or 2 g5 rolls on each module, you're probably looking at half my time tops.

Now, I repeat that I do accept that there are some inconsistencies in the system, and this thread (about HGE USS) may be highlighting a potential choke-point.

But all I can say is that it having taken me 10 hours to make a ship that would previously have taken well over 100 hours (perhaps approaching 1,000 hour insanity for similar performance levels), and knowing that a lower grade but still g5 ship would take no more than 5 hours to make from vanilla ... I must stand by my own assessment that Frontier have successfully addressed the grind for most mats.

 

[avow555]

Same grind, same boring game, yawn, logout.

 

[jasonbarron]

I am, indeed, a min/maxer of the Nth degree, meaning that I'm at one end of the spectrum on this thing.

Now, even taking that on board...



... I'm afraid 3.0 still doesn't seem very double-edged to me.

From pure personal experience, I this morning completed my 100% hard-ceilinged PvP better-than-god-rolled ship in a total RL time taken of almost exactly 10 hours.

I repeat: 10 hours of my RL time to go from vanilla to full min/maxed.

I certainly screwed up enough times (forgetting to bring mats for the experimentals, miscounting, you name it) and hence now that I know what I'm doing could do that a lot quicker.

But for a guy who just wants a decent but not better-than-god-rolled general purpose ship, with 1 or 2 g5 rolls on each module, you're probably looking at half my time tops.

Now, I repeat that I do accept that there are some inconsistencies in the system, and this thread (about HGE USS) may be highlighting a potential choke-point.

But all I can say is that it having taken me 10 hours to make a ship that would previously have taken well over 100 hours (perhaps approaching 1,000 hour insanity for similar performance levels), and knowing that a lower grade but still g5 ship would take no more than 5 hours to make from vanilla ... I must stand by my own assessment that Frontier have successfully addressed the grind for most mats.

You say 10 hours from vanilla to max out the ship, but is that starting without the correct materials? If so, I think 10 hours is going to prove to be an outlier example of efficiency. I needed 40x MEF alone to engineer a suite of frags; good luck finding that many mef in ten hours

 

[Truesilver]

You say 10 hours from vanilla to max out the ship, but is that starting without the correct materials? If so, I think 10 hours is going to prove to be an outlier example of efficiency. I needed 40x MEF alone to engineer a suite of frags; good luck finding that many mef in ten hours

Point taken, Mr Barron, but I think perhaps you were unlucky with your blueprint requirements. I understand what you mean about pre-collecting but actually during the course of my ten hours I did gather quite a lot of top-row stuff even though using others.

Maybe two opposite outliers, I guess...

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I am, indeed, a min/maxer of the Nth degree, meaning that I'm at one end of the spectrum on this thing.

Now, even taking that on board...



... I'm afraid 3.0 still doesn't seem very double-edged to me.

From pure personal experience, I this morning completed my 100% hard-ceilinged PvP better-than-god-rolled ship in a total RL time taken of almost exactly 10 hours.

I repeat: 10 hours of my RL time to go from vanilla to full min/maxed.

I certainly screwed up enough times (forgetting to bring mats for the experimentals, miscounting, you name it) and hence now that I know what I'm doing could do that a lot quicker.

But for a guy who just wants a decent but not better-than-god-rolled general purpose ship, with 1 or 2 g5 rolls on each module, you're probably looking at half my time tops.

Now, I repeat that I do accept that there are some inconsistencies in the system, and this thread (about HGE USS) may be highlighting a potential choke-point.

But all I can say is that it having taken me 10 hours to make a ship that would previously have taken well over 100 hours (perhaps approaching 1,000 hour insanity for similar performance levels), and knowing that a lower grade but still g5 ship would take no more than 5 hours to make from vanilla ... I must stand by my own assessment that Frontier have successfully addressed the grind for most mats.

I've played over 500 hours - I won't spend a single hour to get where I was before just because someone thought it was a great idea to reset progress with the engineers.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

I am, indeed, a min/maxer of the Nth degree, meaning that I'm at one end of the spectrum on this thing.

Now, even taking that on board...



... I'm afraid 3.0 still doesn't seem very double-edged to me.

From pure personal experience, I this morning completed my 100% hard-ceilinged PvP better-than-god-rolled ship in a total RL time taken of almost exactly 10 hours.

I repeat: 10 hours of my RL time to go from vanilla to full min/maxed.

I certainly screwed up enough times (forgetting to bring mats for the experimentals, miscounting, you name it) and hence now that I know what I'm doing could do that a lot quicker.

But for a guy who just wants a decent but not better-than-god-rolled general purpose ship, with 1 or 2 g5 rolls on each module, you're probably looking at half my time tops.

Now, I repeat that I do accept that there are some inconsistencies in the system, and this thread (about HGE USS) may be highlighting a potential choke-point.

But all I can say is that it having taken me 10 hours to make a ship that would previously have taken well over 100 hours (perhaps approaching 1,000 hour insanity for similar performance levels), and knowing that a lower grade but still g5 ship would take no more than 5 hours to make from vanilla ... I must stand by my own assessment that Frontier have successfully addressed the grind for most mats.

the old system was a grind, the new system is a grind

3.0 is much better as its guaranteed and is my preference as stated, but its still a crap/dull/boring/ill thought out system, just because its marginally better doesn't mean we should be happy with it, best of a bad bunch.

if you had to eat a turd sandwich would you chose brown bread or white? or work on removing the turd?

Were in a better place for sure in 3.0, but there's still major improvements to be had, MEF still make me shudder.

not to mention the new Guardian grind modules coming soon™

 

[crushdepth]

What in heavens name made you think Frontier would REDUCE grind?

- Powerplay = Grind
- Engineers = Grind

No no those are features.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Grinding is in the core game-play for some reason, no update will significantly change that, they will only tweak it a bit like with engineers 3.0. Deliberate design decision that I grow to accept by now.

 

[Blackcompany]

I've played over 500 hours - I won't spend a single hour to get where I was before just because someone thought it was a great idea to reset progress with the engineers.

Exactly this.

Sandro has zero respect for players, or their time. Hence, his ignoring concerns over the 1-5 per module grind.

And if it isn't Sandro or Sockpuppet, then whoever DOES make the decisions, is making the wrong ones.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

Exactly this.

Sandro has zero respect for players, or their time. Hence, his ignoring concerns over the 1-5 per module grind.

And if it isn't Sandro or Sockpuppet, then whoever DOES make the decisions, is making the wrong ones.

aye they should've just grew a pair and auto-converted everyone's engineered modules to top tier and made everyone select an experimental effect upon logon / ship / module selection.

on a side note some flavours of old 2.4 engineers still give you an advantage no new player can obtain.


long range rails with 50% thermal reduction anyone? 3.0 rail boats are just meh

 

[Dbrn47]

From post # 124:

I find it unreasonable to expect to have a fleet of ships max g5 in less than a week. I find it unreasonable to expect the Material Traders to supplant gathering mats. I find it unreasonable that a poster with dissenting opinions should be maligned for expressing them.

If your ideas have any merit, they should be able to withstand scrutiny, and opposing view points. Adults can disagree without resorting to bully tactics.

Yea, you said that but no one else did. You were countering something no one mentioned. They aren't good points in context of this thread.

 

[jasonbarron]

Point taken, Mr Barron, but I think perhaps you were unlucky with your blueprint requirements. I understand what you mean about pre-collecting but actually during the course of my ten hours I did gather quite a lot of top-row stuff even though using others.

Maybe two opposite outliers, I guess...

I do agree in broad strokes that the new system is a big improvement. My personal issues stem from two aspects of the current system, one fairly minor but kind of sour, the other quite large: the rng involved in searching for/receiving mats--legacy godrolled modules.

I take the time to successfully find and scan a High Sec base, I should know exactly what I'm going to get for a data drop, for instance. Legacy god rolled weapons the efficacy of which aren't possible within the new system should never have been allowed to stay.

Those two things aside, I'm quite happy...but that's just because they opened the face cover on the iron maiden to let a little light in and the dungeon keeper put some flowers near the bars in the outer window. Still not ideal, but a little sunlight is always welcome