The real issue with credit earning IMO

[Cmdr Thrudd]

I think all this talking about credits is back to front because I think we're missing the root of the problem. The real issue isn't credits per hour, it's the cost of modules.

Over the years earning has gone up to try to alleviate the 'grind' but what is actually causing people to need so much money..the top end modules and more specifically how the prices of modules scale with size and rating. The huge jump in costs encourages many to grind.
It's a wonderful feeling buying one of the bigger ships, the problem is though when someone has worked hard to earn it they quickly realise they've not even earned 1/3rd of what you need to outfit it. Now many players are going to look at their shiny new ship and go 'well I want to play with this, how do I earn money fast?' And when this amount could be several hundred millions..then you have the seed of why many folks grind or find get rich quick schemes. Higher module costs of course also effect peoples rebuys too.

The cost of modules is the same since launch (apart from some extra places giving discounts) I think they need to be tweaked to bring the top end down and make a more gradual progression. The way that modules go from E to A rating and the prices rise exponentially is the real issue. Personally I'd scrap the E to A rating and instead label them by their function because having a scale of E to A suggests 'bad' to 'best' and everyone wants 'best'. It also doesn't really make sense as D is lightweight and B is generally sturdy. C and E are almost never used so maybe this part of the design needs a rethink. Also why do we even have A to E weapons designations anymore?

TLDR: Reduce the costs of the higher class modules and armor and address the pointless E to A ratings.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I think all this talking about credits is back to front because I think we're missing the root of the problem. The real issue isn't credits per hour, it's the cost of modules.

Over the years earning has gone up to try to alleviate the 'grind' but what is actually causing people to need so much money..the top end modules and more specifically how the prices of modules scale with size and rating. The huge jump in costs encourages many to grind.
It's a wonderful feeling buying one of the bigger ships, the problem is though when someone has worked hard to earn it they quickly realise they've not even earned 1/3rd of what you need to outfit it. Now many players are going to look at their shiny new ship and go 'well I want to play with this, how do I earn money fast?' And when this amount could be several hundred millions..then you have the seed of why many folks grind or find get rich quick schemes. Higher module costs of course also effect peoples rebuys too.

The cost of modules is the same since launch (apart from some extra places giving discounts) I think they need to be tweaked to bring the top end down and make a more gradual progression. The way that modules go from E to A rating and the prices rise exponentially is the real issue. Personally I'd scrap the E to A rating and instead label them by their function because having a scale of E to A suggests 'bad' to 'best' and everyone wants 'best'. It also doesn't really make sense as D is lightweight and B is generally sturdy. C and E are almost never used so maybe this part of the design needs a rethink. Also why do we even have A to E weapons designations anymore?

TLDR: Reduce the costs of the higher class modules and armor and address the pointless E to A ratings.

Buy ships and modules in systems with discounts to bring down the costs yourself?

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

Buy ships and modules in systems with discounts to bring down the costs yourself?

I dont think you've understood what I'm saying.

 

[zarrazee]

TLDR: Reduce the costs of the higher class modules and armor and address the pointless E to A ratings.

No thanks. I like that you have to work to get the A rated modules on the bigger ships - it gives a sense of "pride and accomplishment" (thanks EA).

I don't want a "I win" button.

 

[MickyG1982]

I dont think you've understood what I'm saying.

I did

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

No thanks. I like that you have to work to get the A rated modules on the bigger ships - it gives a sense of "pride and accomplishment" (thanks EA).

I don't want a "I win" button.

It's not about an iWin button. It's about smoothing out the progress to its not as drastic a jump. The design was implemented years ago and could do with an update as the current implementation isnt good for many players enjoyment of the game. It's still going to take time to outfit a ship but if it can be done in smaller steps then that's going to 'feel' better

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

TLDR: Reduce the costs of the higher class modules and armor and address the pointless E to A ratings.

They aren't pointless. They are there to use in progression.

Also A modules aren't required to play the game.

 

[Mohrgan]

The trouble is: How fast do you think it should take to be an invincible killing machine/Un-killable tank. If you think the game doesn't start until you have a maxed out 'Vett/Cutter, then things are too expensive and take too long. If you think "I'll get there in good time." Then things are fine.

I've been playing since release, I've seen all of the arguments for/against the get rich quick schemes. It just boils down to what you want from your gaming time. Being willing to schlep slaves/bio waste or what ever around for hours upon hours to get into that "I just won the game" ship. Have at it. There is always a new one on the horizon. If you want to progress through the game actually enjoying your time. I'm down with that too. That's how I go about it.

Limitations and expenses are an important aspect to gaming to me. Without them, you just follow the heard. I'm about finding my way through the limitations to gain my success. Being competative in a video game seems utterly crazy to me, but I understand that there are those that play that way. Leave the prices alone, and give those only concerned with 'getting there now' a way to get there. It hurts no one. especially at this stage of the game where newbies are nothing but prey.

If it's so important to have 'that' ship that you will burn your eyes out to cash in, be my guest. Just, don't take what little challenge is left to us out, to accommodate one group.

 

[Shanaeri]

The real issue is, is that people think credits, ships and modules are game progression rather than tools.

People think I must earn XYZ so I can finally get around to enjoying myself rather than just enjoying yourself and letting credits and ships and module come over time

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

They aren't pointless. They are there to use in progression.

Also A modules aren't required to play the game.

Ask anyone for their build and you're really only going to see A and D modules with now and then something B rated. I think this indicates a bit of design flaw.

I know A rated arent needed to enjoy the game, I've been playing long enough
My point, is looking at the game as a whole and player feedback over years I think the modules need some rethinking.

P.S. I dont need money, I've got plenty. I'm raising this point as I think it's a root of the constant credit rage that seems to stalk the game and no one seems to be talking about it. I'm fine personally with how things are but many people aren't and it hurts the perception of the game, a game I love and want to see improve.

The real issue is, is that people think credits, ships and modules are game progression rather than tools.

People think I must earn XYZ so I can finally get around to enjoying myself rather than just enjoying yourself and letting credits and ships and module come over time

Yes I agree! I play the long game too taking my time and just letting credits come...but many people don't and I think the current way the modules work is what causes so many issues.

 

[Askorti]

Actually, I like it the way it is. Thanks to the fact that the modules make the lion share of a ship's cost, it means that when you decide to sell one, you lose much less money as you always get 100% for modules, but only 90% for the ship itself.

But I do agree that the module rating system is rather stupid. It's either A or D, I only go for anything else if A is unavailable in the station I'm at or am short on cash. And the latter pretty much never happens.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yes I agree! Thats how I play too...but many people don't and I think the current way the modules work is what causes so many issues.

But that's their problem no?

Game design isn't exactly democracy.

Also I don't think current way modules work is an issue. Issue most likely is game isn't tailored enough to make moment-to-moment gameplay interesting for people to stay. At least that's how I saw for some time. But recently I don't buy that. When stations burnt I bought T6, modded with max modules I could found, and went on rescuing people. It was fun. You don't need big ship or big modules to have fun.

I think major issue is player perception, as players try to apply same logic they have used in another MMOs - ignore game, get endgame loot, because granted it is worth getting and most fun. What FD should do is to seek out players who might not want to do that.

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

But that's their problem no?

Game design isn't exactly democracy.

Also I don't think current way modules work is an issue. Issue most likely is game isn't tailored enough to make moment-to-moment gameplay interesting for people to stay. At least that's how I saw for some time. But recently I don't buy that. When stations burnt I bought T6, modded with max modules I could found, and went on rescuing people. It was fun. You don't need big ship or big modules to have fun.

I think major issue is player perception, as players try to apply same logic they have used in another MMOs - ignore game, get endgame loot, because granted it is worth getting and most fun. What FD should do is to seek out players who might not want to do that.

I agree with you on the most part but still think that the module cost contributes to a certain mindset in many players and its one that I dont feel is healthy for the game.

 

[sollisb]

It's not about the modules or the ships per'se. It's about the grind. Some players want the big ships. To get the big ships and have one kitted well is minimum 1bn. If you stick to normal missions, it'll take forever. And some players are happy with that. A lot are not. They want that ship and it's kit, before they grown old and get grey. So, they seek better earning potential.

If the missions were balanced for all mission types, and paid a decent reward, the grind would still be there, but more palpable and feel less like a job. The idea is to tune missions to reward effert and tomake them interesting and not boring. Likewise, to cater for the other players who want to progress slowely, offer them missions that pay 1cr per mission.

Simples

 

[Imo]

The real issue with credit earning IMO

Imo loves earning Credits and is not responsible for any issues you have with him. -.-

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

It's not about the modules or the ships per'se. It's about the grind. Some players want the big ships. To get the big ships and have one kitted well is minimum 1bn. If you stick to normal missions, it'll take forever. And some players are happy with that. A lot are not. They want that ship and it's kit, before they grown old and get grey. So, they seek better earning potential.

If the missions were balanced for all mission types, and paid a decent reward, the grind would still be there, but more palpable and feel less like a job. The idea is to tune missions to reward effert and tomake them interesting and not boring. Likewise, to cater for the other players who want to progress slowely, offer them missions that pay 1cr per mission.

Simples

See this is actually the point of my thread. The discussion is always about increasing earnings but what I'm says is that actually I think thats the wrong way around.

Increasing the income trivialises the early game where the real issue lies with the top end modules. It's already too easy to blast right past small ships with just a couple of missions. I reset my alt a couple of weeks ago and it took me a day to get into an asp lol

 

[Odan Brota]

I'm thinking the issue isn't exactly the cost of the top-end modules (having recently finished grinding out my reactive armor for my Cutter before 3.0 dropped, let me tell you 'bout that grind), but the lack of high paying endeavors for someone who is at that "level."

If someone is in a Corvette, and it's "A" or "B" rated, they aren't looking to go kill some loser for a million credits, when they need 40-50 million credits for a single "A" rated module. Currently the game doesn't give them anything to do that would be worth their time, so they jump on whatever gold rush is currently available (passengers, data, skimmers, etc) so that they can achieve their goals. We need end-game content that pays well.

The Thargoids CAN be that content, but the encounters need a bit of a redesign; if they were worth 15-20 million a kill, and were designed in such a way that a small, newbie ship simply couldn't live through the encounter (without being flown by an experienced pilot), you'd see less "gold rush" abuse, since the 'goids can be interesting AND profitable if FDev wills it. Imagine Thargoid Capture or Kill missions handed out by the military (heck, tie them to a military rank for bonus cash or equipment discounts) paying 25-30 million for a high-level 'goid kill? Now that'd be interesting, and we'd see people running out to combat the xeno scum in droves.

Imagine Elite-level missions for traders, explorers, or bounty hunters that actually paid well, or REQUIRED really kitted out ships? Stuff that couldn't even be feasibly ATTEMPTED in anything less than FDL/Chieftan/Gunship/T-9/Asp?

Trade: "Transport 400 tons of [material that eats away at your ship] within 1.5 hours 150 light years away, all the while being assaulted by death squads of NPC FDLs. Payout: 100 mil."

Combat: "Find and kill [pirate in Cutter or Corvette that's engineered to the eyeballs] in a system with nothing but an outpost, but draw him out first by murdering 20-30 of his gang members. You have 1 hour, payout is 100 mil."

Explorer: "Go to known thargoid space, deep scan ten Cyclops and bring back data samples (thargoids become hostile after sample collection, meaning explorer has got to get out of dodge quick). You will be interdicted by pirates along the way hoping to steal your data. You have 1 hour, payout is 100 mil."

Keep top-end modules expensive, by all means, but give players a way to actually earn that level of scratch without wanting to slam their heads against a wall.

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

I'm thinking the issue isn't exactly the cost of the top-end modules (having recently finished grinding out my reactive armor for my Cutter before 3.0 dropped, let me tell you 'bout that grind), but the lack of high paying endeavors for someone who is at that "level."

If someone is in a Corvette, and it's "A" or "B" rated, they aren't looking to go kill some loser for a million credits, when they need 40-50 million credits for a single "A" rated module. Currently the game doesn't give them anything to do that would be worth their time, so they jump on whatever gold rush is currently available (passengers, data, skimmers, etc) so that they can achieve their goals. We need end-game content that pays well.

The Thargoids CAN be that content, but the encounters need a bit of a redesign; if they were worth 15-20 million a kill, and were designed in such a way that a small, newbie ship simply couldn't live through the encounter (without being flown by an experienced pilot), you'd see less "gold rush" abuse, since the 'goids can be interesting AND profitable if FDev wills it. Imagine Thargoid Capture or Kill missions handed out by the military (heck, tie them to a military rank for bonus cash or equipment discounts) paying 25-30 million for a high-level 'goid kill? Now that'd be interesting, and we'd see people running out to combat the xeno scum in droves.

Imagine Elite-level missions for traders, explorers, or bounty hunters that actually paid well, or REQUIRED really kitted out ships? Stuff that couldn't even be feasibly ATTEMPTED in anything less than FDL/Chieftan/Gunship/T-9/Asp?

Trade: "Transport 400 tons of [material that eats away at your ship] within 1.5 hours 150 light years away, all the while being assaulted by death squads of NPC FDLs. Payout: 100 mil."

Combat: "Find and kill [pirate in Cutter or Corvette that's engineered to the eyeballs] in a system with nothing but an outpost, but draw him out first by murdering 20-30 of his gang members. You have 1 hour, payout is 100 mil."

Explorer: "Go to known thargoid space, deep scan ten Cyclops and bring back data samples (thargoids become hostile after sample collection, meaning explorer has got to get out of dodge quick). You will be interdicted by pirates along the way hoping to steal your data. You have 1 hour, payout is 100 mil."

Keep top-end modules expensive, by all means, but give players a way to actually earn that level of scratch without wanting to slam their heads against a wall.

I totally agree that would be preferable but I sadly feel that it's a more complex solution that could even introduce its own problems. I'd totally be down for such content though as it would be great

 

[sollisb]

See this is actually the point of my thread. The discussion is always about increasing earnings but what I'm says is that actually I think thats the wrong way around.

Increasing the income trivialises the early game where the real issue lies with the top end modules. It's already too easy to blast right past small ships with just a couple of missions. I reset my alt a couple of weeks ago and it took me a day to get into an asp lol

Which goes full circle, to something I said before; You segregate based on level. Of course I know we don;t have levels; but we have let's call them, perceived levels. Newbies in Sidewinders/ and small ships, higher level in medium ships and higher again in top level ships. If, and it's a big 'if' they could make it so the missions were only available to the level the CMDr is currently at. But E issuch an open universe, it's a difficult 'if'

 

[Odan Brota]

I totally agree that would be preferable but I sadly feel that it's a more complex solution that could even introduce its own problems. I'd totally be down for such content though as it would be great

I believe that the missions I suggested are derivative enough of the current missions that FDev, with it's talented developers, could pull them off. Perhaps simplify them a bit, or something, but the idea of high-paying missions that are really only able to be done in high-end ships or experienced commanders seems sound.

If it was impossible to introduce content of that nature, I guess my next suggestion would be to reduce rebuy costs by a chunk and a half. I'm up to 47 mil per death at this point in the Cutter, and learning how to fight 'goids has really damaged my pocketbook. Suggesting that to this community is a bit like attempting to wear a hornet's nest as a fashionable codpiece though.