The real issue with credit earning IMO

[gpcustoms]

This game is a wonderful grind. Have my garage full of boats and pretend credits and Mats for these material hungry mods.
This game revolves around its odd pretend market place and credit earning potential otherwise we would all be getting participation trophies and such for just showing up.
I like the grind and complexity of it all,good bad or indifferent:x
One day it might be a perfect place but until that day comes I'm enjoying the view
See you all out in the mist!!

 

[Shoklar]

This is a good post and one that does need to be taken seriously. For a very long time the modules have acted as a large cash sink ever since alpha and onwards, it hasn't changed much. This is due to a lack of ships, lack of cash sinks, lack of content to spend credits on, and also a lot of it is down to the players own play style and how they want to play the game. So much conflicting ideals and why on earth should some modules even cost just as much as your ship. It should be downscaled some imo, but I doubt we'd see it until they do add more ways for players to spend credits on other things other than ships and modules. Player owned assets would certainly help in spending credits and a whole host of other ideas I could think of.

Anyway, good post, Cmdr Thrudd.

+1 rep.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

They aren't pointless. They are there to use in progression.

Also A modules aren't required to play the game.

they aren't worth to get becaus the progression is horrible. Youc an't gett hem everywhere so the timeinvestment flying around to byu them already is outclassed by mmaking money and going to the A rating (exceppt class 7 and 8 ones.) And this is why no one really buys the ratings inbetween.

usually it is like:

go and Buy ship
replace all E's with D if money is available.
farm money for A at a proficient location
seek and install A rating.

 

[Sideromelane]

With the advent of engineering, credits are almost irrelevent. Sure, yeah, you're earning 300mill credits per hour, but so what? You still need to find Pharmaceutical Isolators!

 

[Ian Doncaster]

C and E are almost never used so maybe this part of the design needs a rethink. Also why do we even have A to E weapons designations anymore?

E is for reducing the sticker price of the ships

C ... I think is really underrated and has some interesting options in 3.0 because of just how convenient engineering has become. It gives pretty decent performance for a fraction of the price - and can still be G5 engineered to have performance way above stock A-rated and still barely cost anything. A C-rated Anaconda costs less than an A-rated Python, and is better at some tasks - I'm using one now (without engineering) for the mining CG.

But in general, fully agreed, the price of the high end ships goes up way too fast for their capabilities and performance. They say (mostly correctly, though there are exceptions) you can do anything in the game in a Cobra III. Then why do other ships cost 100 times as much as a Cobra III?

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

With the advent of engineering, credits are almost irrelevent. Sure, yeah, you're earning 300mill credits per hour, but so what? You still need to find Pharmaceutical Isolators!

Yeah this is a good point. The effort required to 'max out' a ship has shifted quite a bit to engineers. If the modules got looked at to reduce the need for credits a bit there would still be a lot of work involved but with a lesser focus on cash.

Credits are still quite a hurdle for newer players though, until they have built up a reserve and got their ship bought prior to engineering it.

I just think its a shame that whenever I go to anywhere that Elite is mentioned be it Facebook, Reddit or gamer articles on popular sites the comments are always filled with two points; The credit grind and the lack of what they refer to as engaging game play. While I don't agree with them I can understand where they're coming from. I do wonder just how many people have been turned off the game before even trying it because of all the posts about how terrible the grind is. If things can be tweaked to make the progression feel less grindy while still needing effort maybe the bad press could be countered somewhat

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

E is for reducing the sticker price of the ships

C ... I think is really underrated and has some interesting options in 3.0 because of just how convenient engineering has become. It gives pretty decent performance for a fraction of the price - and can still be G5 engineered to have performance way above stock A-rated and still barely cost anything. A C-rated Anaconda costs less than an A-rated Python, and is better at some tasks - I'm using one now (without engineering) for the mining CG.

But in general, fully agreed, the price of the high end ships goes up way too fast for their capabilities and performance. They say (mostly correctly, though there are exceptions) you can do anything in the game in a Cobra III. Then why do other ships cost 100 times as much as a Cobra III?

Yeah engineers really do allow us to mix up things. C rated power plant is a good example.

Regarding the costs I think a lot of the numbers were arbitrarily made up during beta and have never been looked at since. They're gamey rather than based on any 'real world' sense. I made a post recently in the suggestions forum raising the thought that maybe the economy needs a rebalance as part of Beyond. Hire in an economist to analyse the numbers same as they consulted with scientists when designing the galaxy. Why does a ship cost what it does in this world, why does this mission pay out what it does? I think a lot of the problems they've had are because they made up numbers rather than basing things off 'what does one credit actually buy' then working from there.

 

[damon8r351]

I don't know if I necessarily agree with the point that high end modules are too expensive, because I feel like the progression works for me.

However, I can certainly understand where someone else might think that, because I currently own an Asp Explorer worth 53 million credits. 26 million of that value is tied into a class 6A fuel scoop that cost 26 million credits to buy. After the 46 million credit Military Grade Composites on my FDL, it's far and away the single most expensive module in my fleet.

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

Yeah those big jumps are the problem I'm trying to discuss as I feel it's a large reason behind why so many people seem to end up in that grind mentality.

 

[metatheurgist]

Sorry man, but the claims that it's too hard to make money are bulldung. I made the money for an A grade corvette by bounty hunting. This was before the ridiculous payouts for everything came into being. Even then bounty hunting was the poor cousin compared to the "massive" 10m/hour people were making trading, but I can't stand trading so that was never going to be an option. It took about a month to do, which I don't consider unreasonable in a game that's not supposed to be completed in a 10 hour play-through like most console games.

It's even easier now that missions pay heaps and wanted ships drop 400K bounties.

The problem is that people think they need a corvette/anaconda/cutter. There's nothing you can't do in a smaller ship except move 1000T of cargo in one go.

 

[Hevak]

What the problem is with these threads is that what the problem is not what the problem is for all and when the problem is not what the problem is when someone else thinks the problem is not what someone else thinks the problem is, all that gets said is what the problem is when the problem is different depending on what the problem is for one person, which then the problem is that the problem is not the same thing I said the problem is, so then we just get a whole lot of the problem is, but is what the problem is really what the problem is if what the problem is isn't really what the problem is for everyone?

:x[big grin]:O[up]

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

Sorry man, but the claims that it's too hard to make money are bulldung. I made the money for an A grade corvette by bounty hunting. This was before the ridiculous payouts for everything came into being. Even then bounty hunting was the poor cousin compared to the "massive" 10m/hour people were making trading, but I can't stand trading so that was never going to be an option. It took about a month to do, which I don't consider unreasonable in a game that's not supposed to be completed in a 10 hour play-through like most console games.

It's even easier now that missions pay heaps and wanted ships drop 400K bounties.

The problem is that people think they need a corvette/anaconda/cutter. There's nothing you can't do in a smaller ship except move 1000T of cargo in one go.

I agree its not hard. It's crazy easy now compared to before even without any grinding or cheesy tactics. What I'm suggesting though is that the current module costs creates a perception for many that only grinding is the answer. Look at all the comments and forum threads people constantly complain about the grind, what causes that? It cant be that everyone wants stuff now now now (though some will) for most players I think its more down to pacing. I feel that the exponential cost in modules is at the root of that pacing problem.

 

[Tel Prydain]

The whole point of A-rated equipment is that it's overpriced. E is basic, D is light, C is efficient, B is powerful (but inefficient) and A is the best of everything at a crazy, stupid premium price. The crazy, stupid premium price is the point of A-rank. If it's not stupid costly, then there's no point having it.


And on a different note, I posted this in one of the other threads, but I'll say again here... there should be significant costs to using a big ship. In the previous Elite games you had to pay a crew - and that would be a good start in E-D. There was a reason only governments and globe spanning organizations like the East India Trading Company had War Galleons... the cost of running them was so darn high. Taking a Corvette, Cutter or Anaconda out of the dock should require a major investment from the Commander that requires cost up front.
Basically missions in the big ships need a total rework. They should offer millions (even hundreds of millions) as a reward, but there should be millions put in up front beyond the costs of the ship itself.

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

What the problem is with these threads is that what the problem is not what the problem is for all and when the problem is not what the problem is when someone else thinks the problem is not what someone else thinks the problem is, all that gets said is what the problem is when the problem is different depending on what the problem is for one person, which then the problem is that the problem is not the same thing I said the problem is, so then we just get a whole lot of the problem is, but is what the problem is really what the problem is if what the problem is isn't really what the problem is for everyone?

:x[big grin]:O[up]

haha that made my head hurt to read and at the end I had no idea what I'd just read...I'm still not sure

 

[Hevak]

haha that made my head hurt to read and at the end I had no idea what I'd just read...I'm still not sure

Lol was just having some fun. So many posts today are, what problem is, or no what the problem really is lol. Some good points in here though.

 

[Cmdr Thrudd]

The whole point of A-rated equipment is that it's overpriced. E is basic, D is light, C is efficient, B is powerful (but inefficient) and A is the best of everything at a crazy, stupid premium price. The crazy, stupid premium price is the point of A-rank. If it's not stupid costly, then there's no point having it.

I'm in no ways against things costing lots my issue is with the way they're currently scaled and the effect it has on player actions.

And on a different note, I posted this in one of the other threads, but I'll say again here... there should be significant costs to using a big ship. In the previous Elite games you had to pay a crew - and that would be a good start in E-D. There was a reason only governments and globe spanning organizations like the East India Trading Company had War Galleons... the cost of running them was so darn high. Taking a Corvette, Cutter or Anaconda out of the dock should require a major investment from the Commander that requires cost up front.
Basically missions in the big ships need a total rework. They should offer millions (even hundreds of millions) as a reward, but there should be millions put in up front beyond the costs of the ship itself.

I agree that the mission system could do with a rework but so far FDevs design has been to keep missions relatively ship agnostic. Missions are there its up to you to decide which tool to use for it. As a large ship owner you can take more smaller missions to take advantage of the larger ship but the mission system itself doesn't care.

We used to have much higher costs for running big ships back near launch, it wasn't uncommon to make a loss from combat due to repairs and fuel was a big concern but that really didnt go down well with many of the players so we ended up with what we have now where costs are basically non existent. Personally I liked weighing up the pros and cons of undocking my python or anaconda for a task and assessing the costs but that design idea has long gone and I cant imagine them bringing it back, the forums would meltdown. lol

 

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

The real issue is, is that people think credits, ships and modules are game progression rather than tools.

People think I must earn XYZ so I can finally get around to enjoying myself rather than just enjoying yourself and letting credits and ships and module come over time

I see where you are coming from but you lack empathy. Only because you enjoy doing things in the game that dont require money, it doesnt translate to every other player.

 

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

What is the intention behind rebuy costs? What should they add for the players?

This is a serious question, as in, for the developers.

We should not discuss something without understanding what they wanted it to do in the first place.

 

[crushdepth]

FD just shower players with credits now. When I think how long it took me to outfit my asp, or to buy a python I just cringe.

 

[Hevak]

I'm in no ways against things costing lots my issue is with the way they're currently scaled and the effect it has on player actions.


I agree that the mission system could do with a rework but so far FDevs design has been to keep missions relatively ship agnostic. Missions are there its up to you to decide which tool to use for it. As a large ship owner you can take more smaller missions to take advantage of the larger ship but the mission system itself doesn't care.

We used to have much higher costs for running big ships back near launch, it wasn't uncommon to make a loss from combat due to repairs and fuel was a big concern but that really didnt go down well with many of the players so we ended up with what we have now where costs are basically non existent. Personally I liked weighing up the pros and cons of undocking my python or anaconda for a task and assessing the costs but that design idea has long gone and I cant imagine them bringing it back, the forums would meltdown. lol

As to the mission system, it's very very unbalanced the way it's done. I don't mean that in the traditional balance sense. But as a player that has only been playing for just over a year now, there is a big gap in the credits to be made, and the cost of getting into the bigger ships. Even as you rank up in your own ratings, and faction rep. The payouts don't really scale as well. It then becomes exponentially harder to get, outfit and if you're unlucky or suck, maintain your buyback buffer for the top tier ships.

And even when you do get the top tier ships, they don't really open up any new or better activities, nor any better paying ones. Now yes 200-300mil an hour is kind of outrageous. but think back to starting ED. It takes maybe an hour to three once you learn things to get out of the sidey to a half decent ship and outfit it.

But take something like the corvette or anaconda. The Annie will take most people many months or longer to get one and outfit it even remotely good. And once you get that Annie it's going to take you even longer to grind out rep just to unlock the corvette. Owning an anaconda does nothing to help that.

Then since you probably sacrificed credits earned just to earn rep, you'll then have to earn more than $500 mil, or so I've heard, to buy a corvette and kit it out fully. Buying an anaconda in no way makes this easier, and really it sets you way back, since you wasted time and hundreds of millions of credits to get and outfit it.

This is probably directly attributable to the fact ED not having traditional leveling and gating mechanics other mmo style games have. There is no new zones, or content, or missions, or gear to get when you get to a top tier ship. But also once you get what? An fdl and good sized cargo ship, your credit earning potential effectively becomes capped at that point. Progressing any farther or getting any other ship will not increase the amount of credits you can earn, because you still get the exact same missions with the exact same payouts.

Now the skimmer thing was a bit over the top. But they really need to figure out some sort of "progression" like system, in my opinion, that smooths out the gap between earning credits to get in the higher ships for the majority of the players who play average play times.