Why not let players play the way they want?

[Deleted member 110222]

Oddly enough, you couldn't just do nothing but bounty hunt in Elite '84. You had to trade and mine as well, else you could never afford to maintain and upgrade your Cobra.

Seeing as engineer materials are ultimately a currency, well, what I'm saying is that Elite has always been a franchise where your character was a practitioner of all trades. Not just fighting.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

I think every activity should offer every material but certain activities should be way faster than others. That would still encourage people to take a look at the other professions without forcing them if they don't want to.

The player should not be encouraged to look at different professions. That's where all the problems begin. The player should try other professions because they want to. They should play those professions because they are engaging.

The moment you "encourage" you end up forcing them. If it's much faster to achieve my goal by mining, I'll just do mining. But if I hate mining then I'm going to hate what I'm doing. And it's never going to be 5-16 minutes. It's going to be more like do you want to spend 2 weeks or 1 week. It will always end up being about spending hours and hours doing something you don't like.

Basic rule: Don't force (or "encourage") players to do things they don't want to do. Let them play the game the way they want to play it.

 

[Red Anders]

Can I fully upgrade my ship by bounty hunting alone?

Strictly speaking you actually could now, as long as you include accepting some assassination missions in your definition of bounty hunting.

You will get some scan data from a proportion of your customers just as you're scanning them to activate their wanted status and some material drops from them when you kill them. The only thing you wouldn't get from bounty hunting directly is raw material drops because you can only get those from surface prospecting, asteroid mining and mission rewards, which is where missions come in.

Missions will also pay out manufactured materials and data as rewards and you can get some G5 materials from them, which is a quick way to fill up on lower grade materials by using the fairly generous trade-down rates at material brokers to convert some of that grade 5 stuff into grades 1-4.

Obviously it will be far more time consuming doing it that way than it would by doing a variety of in-game activities; in particular you'd get more raw materials from one hour on a planet's surface than you're likely to bag from a week's worth of missions. It also doesn't address the fact that without going hunting for high grade emissions signal sources there are some grade 5 materials that you simply can't get directly in any kind of quantity, so you'd be forced to trade up or across material families for both data and manufactured materials at a broker for those and the exchange rates are much less attractive for that.

I'm not saying it's a particularly viable way of engaging with engineering, I certainly wouldn't do it that way and luckily don't have to because I do pretty much every activity in the game at various times, but if the immersive aspect of locking yourself into a single role is that important to you then yeah, you're not actually blocked from any aspect of engineering that I can think of. It's just considerably harder/more time consuming.

 

[Ian Skippy]

No, I'm saying that you should be rewarded for playing the role you enjoy. I'm saying that should be a core ideal of the game.

You should never be forced to do anything just to obtain some reward. Whatever that thing you have to do will be fun for some but tedious for others. Instead, players should choose what they want to do and be rewarded as they progress.

Most games reward you with experience points which the player can spend on upgrades. But the player is free to gain experience by playing the game any way they want.

That is exactly what I say. You are being rewarded for playing your way. However, you want other rewards too, and you want them all while doing the one thing you want to do. You want to disentangle chosing what to do from the rewards, you want to both pick whatever you want to do and get whatever you want. Is as valid an opinion as any other, but I personally want something else. I prefer the TES approach, where you improve in the thing you are doing. So by fighting, you unlock fighter improvements. By exploring, you unlock exploration improvements. Currently this is often completely mis-matched. But have someone get everything by doing one thing seems a bit off to me.

 

[Hellakitty]

[Fade from black]

*scene shows a Bladerunner-esque interior, two cops are sat relaxed at a table playing cards and smoking cigarettes*

Cop 1 > Hey Bob, you noticed we got a new bounty hunter in town? Seems ta be pretty decent at it too. Flies a Fer-de-Lance.

Cop 2 > Noh Jim, I've been off duty for two weeks, what's his name?

Cop 1 > *Her*. Her name is Hellzorkettle. Or something like that. Anyway, we sent Bill out in the new Anaconda the other evening to help out. Came back and he'd not even fired a shot. Said she was melting them up like nobody's business.

[Cut to close up over Cop 2's shoulder, focus out of window. A giant space battle plays out in the far distance among an asteroid field. Pink plasma and laser beams glitter. A single, soundless explosion erupts]

Cop 2 > Okay, well if she wants to clean up the system, I can sit here all night playing cards. I'll teach you how to hustle properly one of these nights, Jimmy-boy. *laughs mockingly*

Cop 1 > Yeah sure, you still owe me those twelve hundred credits I lent you for putting that hole in the...... [interrupted by]

Cop 2 > Let's not go there, eh *chuckles nervously*

[long shot of the room as an awkward silence descends]

Cop 1 > Heyy, uhh. Bob. You remember that time we busted into the Sergeant's office and found those numbers under the whisky in his bottom drawer?

Cop 2 > Aw come on Jim, let's not **** about with this again, ok?

Cop 1 > No. I'm serious. That Fer-de-Lance could use a turn of speed, probably some bigger shields and some nice fat slugs in that huge multicannon. All we'd have to do is send a message from anonymous protocol from the terminal out in the hallway. No-one would know any different.

[close up of Bob's face as he struggles with the dilemma]

Cop 2 > Ok ok, y'know what. Let's give it a few days. If she's still alive and the crime stats tally up, we're on shift again on Wednesday night. If it means we get to sit here getting paid instead of risking our backsides out there, I'm in.

Cop 1 > I'm in.

Cop 2 > Ok, let me draft up a message through anonprot. We're doing what, Palin, Todd and the shields guy.. umm, Cheung?

Cop 1 > Yep, that's him. You still got the numbers in your book?

Cop 2 > Sure do, they're kinda my insurance blanket.

[long shot of the room as Cop 2 kicks his chair back and strolls over to the door, flicking through a notebook he takes out of the inside pocket of his jacket]

Cop 2 > Hey uhh, what was her name again? Hellokizmet?

Cop 1 > Yeah, something like that. Or Echopitty. Look it up on the station landing logs. It's the FDL with all the tack-on bits that the kids are putting on their ships these days. Must have more money than sense.

Cop 2 > *laughing* Don't they all Jim. Don't they all......

[And scene. Fade to black]

 

[Vardaugas]

You think in professions. They do not exists. That's where your problem is. You are a commander of a space ship doing all kinds of things to get where he wants to go and simply may do some things more intently than others.

If you want to play in such a limited fashion, you will have to find ways to compensate for the shortcomings incurred by your choices or just accept that some features are not available to you. You deprive yourself, yet blame FDev for it.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

Even the bounty hunter needs to buy and maintain guns. A pirate needs to repair his ship. A miner needs tools. A explorer needs, well, everything.
These things don't just come to them; they make an effort to obtain them. And that can be a chore in itself.

But a explorer doesn't have to go mining. A pirate doesn't have to go exploring. They're able to convert whatever they gain from their own activity into the things they need. In our world, the pirate coverts goods into money and money into repairs.

In most games, you get experience points and you convert your experience points into upgrades.

In Elite we should use credits to buy upgrades but I guess because the economy is broken we're forced to use bartering for materials. Which would be fine as long as you can earn the materials you need doing the activities you enjoy. Or be able to fully convert your materials into the materials you need.

 

[Gun Star]

Explorers, Pirates, Traders still have to become miners if they want Selene (Mean) Jean unlocked for Armor upgrades.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Explorers, Pirates, Traders still have to become miners if they want Selene (Mean) Jean unlocked for Armor upgrades.

So, miners have to explore for Farseer, Martuuk, and Palin.

You think in professions. They do not exists. That's where your problem is. You are a commander of a space ship doing all kinds of things to get where he wants to go and simply may do some things more intently than others.

If you want to play in such a limited fashion, you will have to find ways to compensate for the shortcomings incurred by your choices or just accept that some features are not available to you. You deprive yourself, yet blame FDev for it.

Well said. Virtual rep.

 

[SkyB]

We are ship commanders leading civilisation to new frontiers.
Freelancers fulfill any role necessary in order to create any path we desire.

One day I go out on exploration, the other I enjoy exploiting the most valuable metals from asteriod belts to later cleanse the sector of criminal activity.
I'm always scanning USS for salvage parts to engineer my ships beyond imagination while looking for new engineers helping me out.

If I run low on credits I put on my captain's hat in order to transport first class passengers, but preferrably refugees from burning stations before contribution towards solving the cause which means robust negotiations.

I also enjoy amazingly beatiful planetary terrain while searching for materials usually followed by solving the mysteries of Thargoid and Guardian Sites.

Versatility is key.

 

[Lightspeed]

Isn't this just another thread where the OP asks for the game to be designed the way he/she wants to play? Never mind the rest ?

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

You think in professions. They do not exists. That's where your problem is. You are a commander of a space ship doing all kinds of things to get where he wants to go and simply may do some things more intently than others.

If you want to play in such a limited fashion, you will have to find ways to compensate for the shortcomings incurred by your choices or just accept that some features are not available to you. You deprive yourself, yet blame FDev for it.

I can accept that there are no professions. But I thought the whole idea of Elite was you get an open sandbox universe and you get to play the way you want to play.

Consider other games that allow you to play using stealth or go guns blazing. You have multiple ways of obtaining the same objective. They allow you to play the game the way you want while still getting the reward you want.

I don't think I'm saying anything new. I'm just stating what I think most game developers have figured out years ago. Give the player the freedom to create the experience he wants.

 

[Gun Star]

So, miners have to explore for Farseer, Martuuk, and Palin.



Well said. Virtual rep.

Exactly. If you want to use engineers you have to try out all aspects of the game. If you want to lock yourself down to one profession that's fine also. You'll just limit yourself then. I played for over a year in this game with only 3 engineers unlocked and still had a lot of fun. Not doing them is completely legitimate play style.

I just finally unlocked my last engineer 2 weeks ago and I've been playing for over 2 years.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

Isn't this just another thread where the OP asks for the game to be designed the way he/she wants to play? Never mind the rest ?

Actually, I'm asking that the game be designed in a way such that anyone can play the way they want to.

If you think about it, all the complaining comes from people being forced to do things they don't enjoy doing.

 

[SeraphimToaster]

I agree with the OP. As a player with enough extra CR to spend, I'd love to be able to buy or even pay another commander, to track down materials for me. I know it sound lazy, but now that I have the ships I want/need, id rather not have to dump credits and time ino a miner for mining, or a scout for data scanning. But if i can go and do some bounty hunting, and pump that money into someones pocket to get the mats I need, Id be happy sitting in a beamvette in a has res to get my mats instead of trudging around the galaxy scraping whatever random bits of crap i need out of the void.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I can accept that there are no professions. But I thought the whole idea of Elite was you get an open sandbox universe and you get to play the way you want to play.

Consider other games that allow you to play using stealth or go guns blazing. You have multiple ways of obtaining the same objective. They allow you to play the game the way you want while still getting the reward you want.

I don't think I'm saying anything new. I'm just stating what I think most game developers have figured out years ago. Give the player the freedom to create the experience he wants.

And as others keep telling you: you have the freedom to what you want, but choices have consequences. And plenty of games do not do what you want. I wouldn't call Skyrim a big failure or anything. You seem to insist that something other than what you want is 'wrong', where in the end its just a different design philosophy that some like and some dont. You dont. Others do. I am not sure what more can be said about it? :S

Actually, I'm asking that the game be designed in a way such that anyone can play the way they want to.

If you think about it, all the complaining comes from people being forced to do things they don't enjoy doing.

Noone is forced to do anything. You can play any way you want to. You just dont get all the shinies.

 

[Vasious]

My CMDR is a half-elf fighter mage with dual handed specialization.

Half Drow?

 

[jasonbarron]

You seem to really be asking if every choice shoukd lead to every desirable reward. While I dont feel the current way is particularly excellent, I dont feel what you want is good either. Playing your own way doesnt mean there shouldnt be consequences in terms of rewards.

Having said that, scanning wakes is pants because it isnt integrated into anything. Ideally youd be doing it anyway to actually hunt your bounty.

I think that a good way to have our cake and eat it too would be to have ships drop a black box that we can scan for data, the more difficult and dangerous the ship, the more juicy the data. I've noticed that with Anaconda's since 3.0, the loot spawn table has been tweaked so that they usually yield 1x g5 manufactured material which makes farming them more interesting now.

 

[babelfisch]

The player should not be encouraged to look at different professions. That's where all the problems begin. The player should try other professions because they want to. They should play those professions because they are engaging.

The moment you "encourage" you end up forcing them. If it's much faster to achieve my goal by mining, I'll just do mining. But if I hate mining then I'm going to hate what I'm doing. And it's never going to be 5-16 minutes. It's going to be more like do you want to spend 2 weeks or 1 week. It will always end up being about spending hours and hours doing something you don't like.

Basic rule: Don't force (or "encourage") players to do things they don't want to do. Let them play the game the way they want to play it.

Your basic rule is wrong.

You need to reward players for using the most efficient tactic available. That's what most people find fun. They want that the game recognises that they are good at something specific, therefore it's necessary that different professions and focus gives different rewards. It's really basic game design.
If you are playing a sorcerer you should be better at casting fireballs and if you want to be a fighter you will be good at using a sword. If you are playing a football game your goal keeper will be better at goal keeping than goal shooting. If you play a racing game and you chose a car with good acceleration it will probably not be the best car at top speeds. Do I need to go on?
If you want to brew a potion you should go in the woods and look for ingredients rather than slaying the next bandit hoping that he carries flowers for his loved one.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I think that a good way to have our cake and eat it too would be to have ships drop a black box that we can scan for data, the more difficult and dangerous the ship, the more juicy the data. I've noticed that with Anaconda's since 3.0, the loot spawn table has been tweaked so that they usually yield 1x g5 manufactured material which makes farming them more interesting now.

That would be a workable bandaid. But really, we need proper bounty hunting.