Live and let live?

Hi Commanders
As I’ve seen this forum evolve over the years (from launch) I’m sort of scared what response I’ll get, but here goes ...
Yesterday I used the current reputation gain missions mechanic to rank up to Rear Admiral.
My personal view is that previously it was far too slow to try to achieve this rank, although I had tried at points.
Some will think of this as an exploit and, some I guess, will feel agitated that I’ve done this in a shorter time frame than they achieved
This is the thing I don’t get.
I’ve been playing since launch and have assets of about 1.5 billion. In that time I’ve gained Elite trader status, but have got a long way to go in terms of the ships I want etc.
I’ve never done any skimmer missions and I believe that recently it was possible for people to earn billions in hours.
What I don’t understand is why people really feel aggrieved by this?
Why does it matter if people take a route to get somewhere they want to be in considerably less time/effort than it may have taken themselves?
I play the game for my enjoyment and don’t balance out that to what others are doing. I really don’t get it.
I feel it would be better just to appreciate everyone who loves the game, whatever that game means to them.
I maybe missing something I guess so I would welcome others views (albeit with trepidation!).
Fly safe.

It's not an exploit, although FD might 'rebalance' (nerf) the values to get the new multiple option reward system working the way they initially intended.
Congratulations on the promotion! I'm glad you're still enjoying the game and hopefully the unlocks that come with that Fed rank will help you add the ships you want to your fleet.

On why some people feel aggrieved? I think it's a sign of the times. A lot of people, especially wealthy, well educated, very middle class ones, seem to have a terrific sense of entitlement these days. They assume that their world view is the only possible 'correct' one and take a very dim view of wrongthink. In this game setting of ours the exploits they used were totally legitimate, because reasons, but anything that deviates from their one true and righteous path to glory is just low down cheating and needs nerfed yesterday!

Personally I couldn't care less if every player in the game had an Anaconda and ten billion in the bank. If they're enjoying themselves and a reasonable number of them buy enough stuff from the store to make FD think it's worth keeping the servers up and the developers working on new content, I'd be delighted with the situation. :D

Adhock me old- who took the jam from your doughnut, mate? :p You seem very grumpy about this whole thing...

Oh look. Another one of these threads....

That's because you weren't here in the beginning. You think earning 40mill/hr was hard?

Try earning 10k.

Yep. You kids really have it easy these days. When I first played around 1.2, earning 10k in a single go was a big deal to me.

So there's always the bitter factor in that people who are just starting have it much easier then we who were the first around have it.

The other problem is that while money=enjoyment, we have to suffer on the forums. Following the first big Gold Rush, there were endless topics about Rebuy and complaining that it was too expensive. The conclusion we drew from this? People were playing in ships they weren't ready for.

Frontier is trying to simulate a 'realistic' cost to these ships. Small ships which are limited in scope but because of that, are very inexpensive. You can lose as many of these as you want but because it doesn't take as much time/resources/manpower/space to make, they can manufacture these in vast numbers with little cost to the buyer.

Bigger ships however because they're massive, they need more of everything. Therefore all that cost gets passed on to the buyer.

The intent being as follows: One trains in a smaller ship to gain the necessary experience that you can't get in a tradtional game that is "Spend points/More Powerful". There is an actual layer of player ability necessary to master through hours of actual practice. I can't tell you how many times I've been blown up in my Viper 3.

However I learned from it.

And now I can fly my Viper 3 for hours in combat without incurring a rebuy unless I do something REALLY stupid.

I got familiar with my ship. It now fits like a second skin.

Every time I went up a ship size, I had to relearn to fly all over again. Carefully inching forward to learn the limitations and how to manage certain situations. Otherwise bite off more then you can chew and there goes your investment.

The problem is that people see bigger ships and think they're more powerful. With the amount of money they sink into those ships they think they're invincible and quickly find out they aren't.

See the Trope of "Karma's A B-" (The "I am Invincible!" edition)

So they want to remove the consequences for having their big powerful "invincible" Frigate by reducing the cost and rebuy. The very consequences necessary to train you into getting better.

So by allowing the removal of consequences, those who took the time to get better are going to suddenly find Elite far more harmless then they already do and they'll get bored. Those who wanted the consequences removed are not going to get any better and they're still going to find themselves at the Rebuy screen more frequently then before.

Essentially, anybody who supports Gold Rushing is trying to treat this game like WoW where there's a clear progression making you the biggest and baddest on the block.

Abridged Kirito puts it best (See 3:23):
https://youtu.be/tTOzLTOQ9OU?t=3m23s

Elite Dangerous is not WoW.

Bigger numbers, are not always going to save you here.

Case in point:

In WWII the Japanese Zero Fighter is considered the most legendary fighter of it's time boasting a 12-1 killing ability.

The US was forced to adopt better aerial tactics in order to counter the Zero fighter in their more inferior machines. These better tactics won the day and negated all the advantages the Zero Fighter had.

The only inferiority the US fighters had against the Zero? They were heavier.

The Zero fighter was the most maneuverable of it's time and able to easily outmaneuver anything the US had. When the US however devised a new squad tactic to ensure that there was always a fighter supporting it's wingmate, the Zero was helpless against the heavier caliber weapons due to it's lack of armor.

This is not to say the Zero fighters couldn't fight back. They continued to inflict massive damage when they caught planes unsupported and out of position before and during engagement.

Elite Dangerous is meant to support those who help themselves. Those who look to real life examples of squadron flying and pilot ability. It does not cater to "I have the biggest and most expensive gear therefore EYE EEM EEENVEEENCIBBLLLEEEEE!!!"

Those who rely on Gold Rushing are showcasing their lack of skill and/or ability to learn as they want to be the best NOW.

They're not interested in enjoying the journey it takes to get to where they want to be. And then when they get there, not only do they have the funds but the skill necessary to use said gear properly.

So you have the rich spoiled kid who drives around in his expensive car without knowing what the car is capable of. As opposed to a professional racer who has spent most of their life behind the wheel of increasingly faster cars and has a support team who keeps him up to date on things they do to the car to make it faster.

The first one got everything they wanted right then and there but lacks the know how gotten over the years of driving slower cars building up similar to the Racer.

The good news is, it doesn't take years to be good in Elite Dangerous. I'm certainly not the deadliest pilot behind a stick but practice has made me better then most. When I shy away from something because I'm not good at it, that's something I need to practice more on.

Ultimately? Those of us who enjoy Elite Dangerous and don't want Gold Rushing to be a thing understand why the game does what it does. The consequences are in place to make you a better player. Those who want Gold Rushing see the consequences as unfair obstacles and rather then learning how to climb over them, want someone else to move them out of their way.

That's why we're aggravated. We put time and effort into the game learning how it ticks and pushing back when it pushes against us.

Seeing other people complain until they get their way? Why should the bar be lowered and render all the effort we put into overcoming it be worthless?

(See Treatise on Elite Progression)

Firstly, the OP stated he(or she) was here from the start and notes that rank was difficult to grind out. That point was addressed before you replied. No-one mentioned credits or gold rushes- maybe the OP agrees with you on that; OJ's at a billion and a half after over three years, not the sort of tally a gold miner has lying around. I don't know if you realise you're doing it, but you're strawmanning pretty hard there.

Onto the Zero. Sorry mate, I know this is a sci-fi board, but I'm not letting that go. ;)
The little Mitsubishi was nowhere near as capable as you're painting it. Wikipedia is full of crud like '12 to 1 kill ratio', but if you put all those ratios together you'd need more planes than were in the conflict to balance the books. Nine Zeros were shot down over Pearl Harbour, one by a pilot still in his pyjamas with a defective MG! No special tactics required, even the P-36 could knock down Zeros, on the first day of the war!
Most Allied aircraft could out dive it, many could out turn it at fighting speeds. It used fabric ailerons, meaning that contemporary Allied fighters like P-40s, Spitfires/Seafires, Wildcats, Hellcats, P51s and even P-47s could out turn it above 200mph. At lower speeds it was very agile, thanks to it's low weight and sleek aerodynamics, but few dogfights ever got that far in the real world. We hang around a lot longer in our modern flight sims than young men fighting for their lives ever did- or should have.
The manoeuvre you're describing (I think) is the 'Thatch Weave'. It was a defensive measure that relied on the Wildcat's superior roll and more powerful engine. Useful if you get bounced, but it was a measured response to an attack, not some 'I win' button American pilots could push. It didn't make the Zero helpless, it gave the Grumman pilots a better chance to survive an attack. It's worth noting that slower rolling Allied aircraft had to come up with different moves- Spitfires tended to dive away, P-40s became adept at the high Yo-Yo, for example.
The myth of the Zero was useful for the Allies propaganda to fall back on- a super plane employed by the enemy is a lot easier for the public to accept than realising that supposedly well trained and led forces were hopelessly unprepared for actually fighting a war. 1942 was a complete shambles all over the Pacific on the Allied side, but it wasn't down to one rather good 'plane employed by the Japanese, any more than the utter pummelling the Japanese took afterwards was down to any one factor or aircraft on the Allied side. Newer aircraft made the Japanese kit obsolete, better training countered the ever shrinking pool of experienced Japanese pilots, Allied logistics were slick and efficient, where Japanese outposts were struck down with appalling shortages and suffered terribly from tropical diseases that they lacked the medicines or facilities to treat.

None of which has anything much to do with Elite Dangerous. I've yet to see anyone, in video, or in game, practice anything I recognise as a Basic Fighter Manouevre. We just roll into a vertical turn and gun down bots, or flip around Starbuck style and shoot backwards. There's not much scope for WW2 style flying or mutual support from your mates. Il 2 or DCS is where that's at! :cool:

I take your point mate- a gradual progression makes you a better pilot. Well done you. But the OP was about earning federal rank- your rant missed the mark entirely! :D
 
Oh look.

An aircraft designed to counter a fighter that was developed and dominated the skies for two years.

Designed to be heavier to withstand more damage and it's own internal improvements.

Once again supporting my point that the air tactics used is what gave them the edge.

God I wish I could remember the maneuver that was developed for that reason. I just can't remember the bloody name...

Hey, normally just a lurker here, but I enjoyed your above post on the Zero, as well as other points you've made. As somewhat of an aviation buff, at least in my younger days, I remember reading about the maneuver you describe. I believe it was called the Thatch Weave, introduced by US Navy pilot Jimmy Thatch.
 
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The Hellcat outperformed the Zero in every way. Not only did it have better firepower and armour, but it was faster and more agile as well. Sure, more airmanship was involved than machinery, but your example was poor for the point you were making, and your claim that the Zero outperformed everything the Americans had was false. The Hellcat won the Pacific air war, even in the hands of rookies, while the Wildcat it replaced was previously being shot down en masse even in the hands of aces.
 
You have to admit when you use the term, conclusion paragraph, for a post, in a game forum, that the majority of forum users saw that large post and went meh... not gonna read it.
Or they went, wow, this one thinks highly of his own opinion.
So when you ask people if they read it or just glossed over it, the answer is probably, no ,they didn't read it, myself included.

Yeah apparently in my Moment of Madness writing the damnable thing I got stupidly optimistic in that people might actually take the time to think.

If I hadn't been possessed I might have deleted the thing knowing better.

So that's what Waffle House Millionaire endured when creating Old Man Henderson. No wonder I have a headache.
 
The Thatch Weave was designed to counter the Wildcat's disadvantages against the Zero. No such disadvantages existed in the Hellcat.
 
Yeah apparently in my Moment of Madness writing the damnable thing I got stupidly optimistic in that people might actually take the time to think.

If I hadn't been possessed I might have deleted the thing knowing better.

So that's what Waffle House Millionaire endured when creating Old Man Henderson. No wonder I have a headache.

Mmmmmm love my anaconda. Paid for by quince planet scans. Oooooohhhhh mmmmmm and my shiny corvette paid for by skimmer missions (not completely but mostly), Mmm the new ship smell for such little work. I did have to stop by ceos/sothis for the rank though that did take some work since I started before 3.0. Mmmmm all in a years time, well less since I took like idk 3 months off.

Sucks though I was apparently not paying attention to the game I was playing and somehow thought the whole game would change when I got these two big ships with the I win button (I still can't find it) and now the game just sucks I quit..........

Earning credits and went on to mat farming missions. Then on to planetary romps for mats. All to engineer my essentially free top dog of all the dogs ever invented ships....

Mmmmm can't wait for the next one to get some imperial ships, since I went over to maunananaungugaga or whatever it is called for that rank.

I'm exploiting the hell out of engineers now since I can get grade 5s much easier.:x[haha]
 
I find it difficult to care how big another player's bank balance is, beyond a well done for achieving it.

I do think the way these missions screw with the BGS is a little irritating though. I'd be happy to leave these massive payouts in provided their influence was minimised (or removed).
 
As I’ve seen this forum evolve over the years (from launch) I’m sort of scared what response I’ll get, but here goes ...

i don't think that's working as intended, but i don't see frontier demoting you anytime soon. at most these missions will be temporarily removed for further investigation, nothing to see here.

good for you, man. play your way.
 
My thought is ..

'Live and let live' not only applies to peoples actions (within certain boundaries) but also to peoples thoughts and expressions. Sure you can put your thoughts out there as a counter in a debate but some people will argue black is white and there's not much you can do to alter their perceptions so in a computer game with first-world problems you may as well filter it out as so much noise. You might also be reminded of Shakespeares' quote "Life is a tale told by a fool, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing", but also remember there is nothing really to distinguish you from them apart from how you express yourself, such as it is with opinions and human nature.

TL;DR Don't worry so much about what other people think.
 
Adhock me old- who took the jam from your doughnut, mate? :p You seem very grumpy about this whole thing...

Because EVERY TIME Gold Rushing comes up, idiots come rushing out of the woodwork to defend it not being an exploit when it fits EVERY CONCEIVABLE DEFINITION of such.

I painstakingly created an article to explain such. And apparently in my Moment of Madness I forgot who I was speaking to.

So perhaps I am justifiably torqued that people are TWISTING REALITY if not language to favor their "it's not an exploit" defense and trampling over all reason I have used to do it.

Perhaps I brought it on myself. Still I think I'm allowed to be angry about it.

No-one mentioned credits or gold rushes

Oh me. You didn't read the OP ether.

None of which has anything much to do with Elite Dangerous.

And I call bull having managed to actually pull off a Cobra. Need more practice to do it more reliably but yeah. Bull on you for thinking actual maneuvers have no bearing here.

But the OP was about earning federal rank- your rant missed the mark entirely! :D

And now you've made me even angrier.

I once recall a topic where I lost an Anaconda to something stupid I did and ended up stuck back in a Sidewinder.

I made it clear I wasn't upset about the Anaconda.

What I WAS up in arms about was the fact someone had UA bombed the starter station cutting off the Outfitters which kept me from replacing the FSD so I could get back to my chosen system. I had to hunt for another system to make money and outfit so I could get back home.

95% of the people who read the topic were very unhelpful in that they didn't even read the OP and actually get what I was posting about.

Go back and read the OP of this topic and then hang your head in shame.

ADDENDUM: Yes thank you to everyone who reminded me. Thatch Weave was the name. I really enjoyed reading about it though I forgot where. A reminder that one does not always need superior equipment to match your opponents.
 
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ADDENDUM: Yes thank you to everyone who reminded me. Thatch Weave was the name. I really enjoyed reading about it though I forgot where. A reminder that one does not always need superior equipment to match your opponents.

The Thatch Weave didn't allow them to match their opponents, it allowed them to survive. Zeros could still dive and escape without giving the Wildcats any kills, and more often than not they would use their superior speed and acceleration to do just that.
 
Wow Ladies & Gentlemen. I am sorry for causing a bit of a storm about something I felt was an honest question.
I appreciate all responses and opinions and I’ve learnt a lot, especially about WW2 fighters! On the record I am, and always will be, a Spitfire man with the sound of the Merlin engine (the Mustang didn’t do bad with that engine also I guess!)!
There has been a lot of passion on here and in some ways that is great.
However, I’m not really sure where this leaves me about my whole ranking up stuff.
Adhock was obviously very passionate about his/her views and I hope I was respectful in my original reply to him/her. It would seem we disagree, but that is all good.
In saying that, my original post was about naval ranking up and how that is perceived from those who have spent a lot greater effort doing it.
I also mentioned the whole skimmer thing as it seems to me that money is also now easy to come by (or was) and there is a debate I think between intended game mechanics and exploits, which I’ve not done. In saying that, whilst many of you do seem to draw a line between ranking gain and credit gain, I personally, don’t really mind either way. I’m just for people loving the game no matter how they see their own journey.
Peace and Love and thanks to all!!
 
I think FD is not allowing us to earn too much per hour because it will shorten the time people play the game thus loosing money for FD. They want us in the game for a long time therefore the grind and less money per hour.
Grind and money sink is basically all there is to this game for most people. If you could win the game after 20 hours, FD has lost
 
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Wow Ladies & Gentlemen. I am sorry for causing a bit of a storm about something I felt was an honest question.

Honest question as it is, it's still yet another post poking at a hot issue.

In saying that, my original post was about naval ranking up and how that is perceived from those who have spent a lot greater effort doing it.

And while it started as such...

I also mentioned the whole skimmer thing as it seems to me that money is also now easy to come by (or was) and there is a debate I think between intended game mechanics and exploits.

...it always, Always, ALWAYS circles right back around to the damn Gold Rush. If not me. Someone else was going to see that and jump to that topic.

Ultimately? Your real point was:

Why does it matter if people take a route to get somewhere they want to be in considerably less time/effort than it may have taken themselves

Which gets translated to "Let the people have their exploits because it doesn't affect me."

While I could explain why it actually DOES, I think I'll just make grape juice out of lemons and let you wonder how I did it.

If you're going to insist. C&P first and foremost. *sits back with grape juice*
 
Wow, wow, wow Adhock!
Please re-read this whole thread, particularly taking note of the comments I’ve made and then reconcile this with your last post.
I feel I’ve been nothing, but polite and gracious, but really, why are you doing this?
I’ve accepted we have a difference of opinion and inferred that you are entitled to your views, but why do you continue with this?
I hate to say it, but I feel compelled, but you really are showing yourself in a bad light I’m afraid.
 
Looks like someone doesn't know their aviation history very well...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F6F_Hellcat

Glad someone brought up the Hellcat, I was tempted to myself. Boy that plane was zero-killer. My favourite of the pacific theatre fighters by a long way. Love flying it in IL-2 1946.

To be fair though, it was a relatively late-war addition for the US Navy and the earlier aircraft were indeed very much outclassed by the Mitsubishi Zero.

My understanding is that the later successes of the US Navy/Marines/Army airpower was a combination of superior tactics (eg. Thach-weave) and superior aircraft since late 1943 (Hellcat, Corsair, Lightning). Oh, and also the Japanese had all but expended their best pilots in early campaigns and were only fielding rookies by war's end.

Edit: Looking back over the thread I see others have mentioned a certain tactic as well. Nitpick time! It's "Thach", not Thatch (named for one John S. Thach). Sorry chaps, couldn't help myself there. :)
 
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I am a PB1 backer and don't care that the game has larger and bigger rewards than in the early days. If people can progress faster through the ranks, good for them.
What does irk me are posts where people complain that they can only make 40 Mil per hour or how easy it is to make 200 Mil/hour. That and I demand FD do…
 
I earned the rank and cash for my Corvette and both Cutters from whatever exploit/scheme was going on at the time: slaves, biowaste, data, skimmers, passengers, diamonds... you name it I probably did it.

I’ve had great fun, with the possible exception of LT Diamonds which did make me feel a bit dirty.

I’ve also played the game a great deal I’ve handed in a little over 20k bounty vouchers and been to Beagle point, Colonia and SgrA*

I would’t say that the game owed me some perks but I feel that my Elite Yin and Yang are in harmony.

Fly safe Cmdrs and enjoy your game!
 
Hi Commanders
As I’ve seen this forum evolve over the years (from launch) I’m sort of scared what response I’ll get, but here goes ...
Yesterday I used the current reputation gain missions mechanic to rank up to Rear Admiral.
My personal view is that previously it was far too slow to try to achieve this rank, although I had tried at points.
Some will think of this as an exploit and, some I guess, will feel agitated that I’ve done this in a shorter time frame than they achieved
This is the thing I don’t get.
I’ve been playing since launch and have assets of about 1.5 billion. In that time I’ve gained Elite trader status, but have got a long way to go in terms of the ships I want etc.
I’ve never done any skimmer missions and I believe that recently it was possible for people to earn billions in hours.
What I don’t understand is why people really feel aggrieved by this?
Why does it matter if people take a route to get somewhere they want to be in considerably less time/effort than it may have taken themselves?
I play the game for my enjoyment and don’t balance out that to what others are doing. I really don’t get it.
I feel it would be better just to appreciate everyone who loves the game, whatever that game means to them.
I maybe missing something I guess so I would welcome others views (albeit with trepidation!).
Fly safe.

Very confused about the answers in this thread.
OP, do you think your original question has been answered?
:S
 
I didn't earn my reputation or Dangerous Forum title for being a vengeful while using text speak.

And the reason my Rep might be low is because I have actually noticed I only get Rep when I post memes, get sarcastic, or go full on pimphand. So every bit of rep I earned was ether because I reenforced someone's beliefs or was just being silly.

"I didn't earn my rep for using text speak! I earned it for doing a bunch of other stuff I'm not proud of!"
 
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