Combat Logging Punishment Proposal

[Riverside]

I'm afraid I haven't read all 31 pages of the thread yet, but as the proud owner of a flaky Internet connection, I'd quite like to add my twopenneth!

First of all, there's a expression that comes to mind here: "Better to let 100 guilty men go free than to punish an innocent man" (or something like that).

Given the number of people like me who end up being booted with infuriating regularity, I think any significant automatic sanction would be inappropriate, as it would inconvenience honest players far more than it would punish genuine C-loggers. Some of the more punitive suggestions in particular (including a 1 hour delay after disconnecting or straight to rebut for disconnecting when 'in danger') would make the game utterly unplayable for people like me.

However, I do have a couple of suggestions for if FDev really must change the game to make it fairer / more robust.

1. Provide a PvP sandbox area (like CQC) where players can fight each other in their own ship builds without incurring the rebuy cost.

And / or:

2. If a player is in an instance with one or more other players who are currently hostile to them, then they disconnect when 'in danger', then their ship remains in the instance for the duration of the 15s logout timer.

Possible variation on 2.:

- Make the ship remain in the instance for longer, but put an NPC pilot of equal rank to the player into the cockpit to hold the fort.

Pie

I appreciate the thread is long, there are links to particularly helpful posts in the first post, if you only read those it will give you a good idea of where the thought process has gone.

I broadly agree with your desire not to punish the innocent, personally I'm satisfied with 'beyond reasonable doubt' rather than requiring cast iron proof. Any punishment applied could always be appealed. otoh playing in a populated instance with an unreliable connection is a little inconsiderate, you will be affecting their game quality too.

For your suggestions:

1. A PvP sandbox is already provided, CQC/Arena. This is isolated from the main game & has proved unpopular. The CLogging issue doesn't particularly affect organised PvP, it is freeform emergent play where CLogging rears it's ugly head. Providing a second dedicated PvP arena would be nice, but wouldn't have much effect on CLogging imo.

2 & 3. There is no trustworthy way to maintain another players' ship in your instance because of the way the instances are hosted. This is why we have the current 15sec 'ship in danger' timer.

What do you think of this idea?
CMDR_Cosmicspacehead's Mode Restricting Proposal

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

<snip>
What do you think of this idea?
CMDR_Cosmicspacehead's Mode Restricting Proposal

I personally love it.

 

[+Mikie]

I care less about plankton than the subject of this thread, but thank you Commander Whatchamacallit for the following tidbit of useful info. It may come in handy n the future.

I would have to accept that one potentially exploitable scenario would have to be exempt, namely connection drops at the point of a successful interdiction. The reason is that I know this is a time when flaky connections can cause genuine problems, same as when trying to drop in on a wingmate. It'sa well-documented problem and a potential nightmare to police.

 

[Riverside]

I care less about plankton than the subject of this thread, but thank you Commander Whatchamacallit for the following tidbit of useful info. It may come in handy n the future.

There really is no need to be cryptic If you have experienced this try reporting it (with evidence), Karma would still pick up behavioural trends from the Clogging player.

 

[z33r0x]

I don't mind combat logging, been doing it forever, since release of beyond I haven't done it, and lost 400 million credits because of death. And because the money earning aspects in the game is so poor, I have no choice, so Im back to combat logging agian, sure I only play SOlo so it doesnt hurt anyone. I have never combatlogged in a PvP fight, lost everyone tho to pirate players.

 

[Riverside]

I don't mind combat logging, been doing it forever, since release of beyond I haven't done it, and lost 400 million credits because of death. And because the money earning aspects in the game is so poor, I have no choice, so Im back to combat logging agian, sure I only play SOlo so it doesnt hurt anyone. I have never combatlogged in a PvP fight, lost everyone tho to pirate players.

So what do you think about the ideas in this thread? Are there any that would motivate you to stay in the game & deal with whatever danger you face than quit? Not doing it to avoid another player is considerate, but as I'm sure you are aware the potential for earning cash is enormous, even after the recent culls.

 

[Boons]

Use the launcher to monitor the client it's open all the time anyway. And record whether the client CTD, actually lost connection and willingly closes the game either with task manager or in the game itself. The launcher would then log the disconnect and its parameters. And when it reestablishes connection it sends it to the network for analysis. The network should keep a log on each player who does this and if it occurs multiple times it should start flagging the profile. When a certain number of flags is hit then start the banning for 30 minutes and escalate from there. It's simple analytics, if client A matches prerequisites 1 2 3 then client A is combat logging.

 

[Riverside]

Use the launcher to monitor the client it's open all the time anyway. And record whether the client CTD, actually lost connection and willingly closes the game either with task manager or in the game itself. The launcher would then log the disconnect and its parameters. And when it reestablishes connection it sends it to the network for analysis. The network should keep a log on each player who does this and if it occurs multiple times it should start flagging the profile. When a certain number of flags is hit then start the banning for 30 minutes and escalate from there. It's simple analytics, if client A matches prerequisites 1 2 3 then client A is combat logging.

Your suggestion is very close to what FDev's own idea, which they described as 'Karma', essentially a trend tracking system. I guess notoriety (just introduced in 3.0) is one of the first visible aspects but it should be able to pick up patterns of behaviour & flag certain trends just as you describe.

 

[Viper2kUK]

I've never Cl'd but from what I can gather from the posts (I've not read all 11 pages) the premise is sound but from my own situation - I'm on BT Infinity2 and although overall I have a stable connection there are times when connection is lost - router reboots or just no connection. Lately it's been all fine and stable but last year it was a pain. None of the situations i was in though were in combat against another player or NPC.

I'm wondering though how ED would determine if a CL was the cause. With GDPR coming into effect soon - just what information can be provided to Frontier with regards to this. Am I going to have to agree to an updated T&C's that will allow my Elite Client to send information about my home network, service provider, internet connection status as well as the OS I'm running and potentially information from my event logs to determine if I CL'd at the time?

I think not - my information is my own and to be able to provide a solution to CL shouldn't involve me sending more information that is already held on the AWS Servers.

That being said though - if these logs are purely analysed from the server information regarding the last instance my account logged in - then yes a proportionate disconnect and notification to the end user on the reason why is fine by me.

(May of gone off tangent a bit there)

V2k.

 

[Riverside]

I've never Cl'd but from what I can gather from the posts (I've not read all 11 pages) the premise is sound but from my own situation - I'm on BT Infinity2 and although overall I have a stable connection there are times when connection is lost - router reboots or just no connection. Lately it's been all fine and stable but last year it was a pain. None of the situations i was in though were in combat against another player or NPC.

I'm wondering though how ED would determine if a CL was the cause. With GDPR coming into effect soon - just what information can be provided to Frontier with regards to this. Am I going to have to agree to an updated T&C's that will allow my Elite Client to send information about my home network, service provider, internet connection status as well as the OS I'm running and potentially information from my event logs to determine if I CL'd at the time?

I think not - my information is my own and to be able to provide a solution to CL shouldn't involve me sending more information that is already held on the AWS Servers.

That being said though - if these logs are purely analysed from the server information regarding the last instance my account logged in - then yes a proportionate disconnect and notification to the end user on the reason why is fine by me.

(May of gone off tangent a bit there)

V2k.

Firstly, Cmdr Cosmicspacehead's mode restricting proposal means that if you accidentally disconnect you simply log back into the mode you left (ie the one you wanted to be in anyway). The deliberate CLogger must either return to face whatever danger they CLogged to avoid, or wait out of the game, unable to move or progress as long as they believe the thread (assumed to be another player) is still waiting for them to return. This removes the most damaging benefit of CLogging - for the griefer to CLog when they are attacked, switch to solo and rejoin open in another location. The mode restriction would only apply while the ship is in danger.

Secondly, the idea with the trend tracking 'karma' system is that if your ISP disconnects you it's going to be unrelated to what you were doing in the game, so disconnects will not happen only in combat for example, they will happen randomly as far as game activities are concerned. The deliberate CLogger will have a far higher percentage of their disconnect happen when the ship is in danger.

The accidental disconnect is the reason why any single event cannot really be punished, and the mode restriction neatly gets around this by simply forcing all players (regardless of intent) to reconnect via the path the accidentally disconnected player would choose anyway - to re-join whatever mode they were in.

 

[Makasouleater]

There is no way to stop combat logging with punishments, because you can't tell the difference between a disconnect, a crash, or a intentional combat log. So the only thing to do is make it so in PvP you don't lose anything . They already shown they could do it easy with the crime and punishment discounts. All they gotta do is make it so when players fight there is 100 percent discount. No needless complex coding, and things that don't exist which will be abused anyways.People will PvP a hell of a lot more , no one's gonna disconnect because you don't lose anything anyways. The only people who lose with my solution are murder hobos, and with the new crime and pushimwnt system it's obvious the devs don't cater to them anyways, so I don't see why they don't just do that. Guess they like to read about us whining about combat loggers. Reminds me of the cable company on South park with their nipple flaps opened, oooooo tell us all about how you hate combat loggin

I mean there is nothing I can think of besides some one wanting to make some one mad about losing their ship and hours of work, that would make some one say PvP loss is a good idea. There is no real crafting system in this game , so no one can whine about since people aren't losing stuff in PvP they can't make money, cause no one makes money that way. The PvP is hugely unbalanced as it is anyways, some one with a more expensive setup and internet always has a advantage. With ships being over powered. So what possible reason would u want to make complicated nonsense about crime and punishment when the majority don't even PvP. The ones who do would enjoy it more cause they wouldn't have to spend hours getting there stuff back, and could enjoy PvP ship combat. The ones who don't PvP wouldn't notice, cause you could leave the PvE deaths, suicide, and crashing the same.

I mean it's win win for every one but some one who enjoys going around braking people's stuff and making them feel bad. Just so you know if you didn't , there is only one succesful full loot or huge loss PvP game eve and it could be argued that PvP isn't forced in eve it's easily avoided. Every other game that gets forced PvP with huge grinds and you lose huge stuff fails. Shadow bane, mortal online, original ulitma online, EverQuest PvP, arche age and dark fall all fails.

One game like this kinda that is a huge success is black desert online, and that when you PvP you don't loss much of anything at all. If people started losing all there billion gold gear cause one fight, yeah that game would be dead as well.

 

[Robert Maynard]

People will PvP a hell of a lot more , no one's gonna disconnect because you don't lose anything anyways.

People without anything in their ships that they can lose on destruction, possibly - for the rest, possibly not.

 

[AbsinthSvK]

There is no way to stop combat logging , because you can't tell the difference between a disconnect, a crash, or a intentional combat log. So the only thing to do is make it so in PvP you don't lose anything .

How other games tell difference between disconnect, crash? Real multi-player pvp game doesnt care about it, you log-out you pay for that. Its your problem to start multi-player game with bad computer, internet. You shouldn't punish other players in same location.

PvP with dont lose anything is boring. And right now you lose only 5% of cost the ship, its reasonable low.

 

[Riverside]

There is no way to stop combat logging , because you can't tell the difference between a disconnect, a crash, or a intentional combat log. So the only thing to do is make it so in PvP you don't lose anything . They already shown they would do it easy with the crime and punishment discounts. All they gotta do is make it so when players fight there is 100 percent discount. People will PvP a hell of a lot more , no one's gonna disconnect because you don't lose anything anyways. The only people who lose with my solution are murder hobos, and with the new crime and pushimwnt system it's obvious the devs don't cater to them anyways, so I don't see why they don't just do that. Guess they like to read about us whining about combat loggers.

You are right that the game can't prevent it, but it can remove the main benefit of doing it - to be able to switch to solo, move your ship away from danger & return to open in another location. There is an elegant solution proposed by Cmdr CosmicSpaceHead in post #33 that simply forces the disconnected play to rejoin the mode they left, so they cannot escape whatever threat they CLogged to avoid. The unintended disconnecting player would want to return to the mode they were in so it's no punishment, it only forces the cynical player to take the path the regular player would choose.

A win with no loss is no win at all, that's a shallower game imo. If I pop your ship I want you to remember it. If you pop mine, I will remember.

 

[Makasouleater]

You are right that the game can't prevent it, but it can remove the main benefit of doing it - to be able to switch to solo, move your ship away from danger & return to open in another location. There is an elegant solution proposed by Cmdr CosmicSpaceHead in post #33 that simply forces the disconnected play to rejoin the mode they left, so they cannot escape whatever threat they CLogged to avoid. The unintended disconnecting player would want to return to the mode they were in so it's no punishment, it only forces the cynical player to take the path the regular player would choose.

A win with no loss is no win at all, that's a shallower game imo. If I pop your ship I want you to remember it. If you pop mine, I will remember.

That is not removing anything. The main benefit from it is not losing your ship. If you unplug your router and go do something else you keep your ship and the other person loses even more cause they are gonna sit there waiting hoping the person comes back. Now they got more of a reason to do it, laughing at the person sitting there. I mean why would you think the person would come back if he knows he's gonna be in the same spot. That is the same thing as thinking giving some one bans is gonna stop them. They don't want you to blow up their ship, so they are gonna unplug. All your idea would do is be a lot of work coding with almost no benefit .

If losing some credits is the only reason u remember PvP you must have a shallow experience already. I wouldn't remember if some one blew up my ship cause I had to pay credits to get it back lol. I might remember them if I thought they were skillful.

So according to you here is what they should do. Make it so when you die your dead end of character have to start totally over. That is the only way that would have any meaning. If they made this a hard core game it would be dead in a matter of days. I'd still play tho I like hardcore this is far from hard core . Your still in the minority with the murder hobos. The majority def don't like PvP with huge grinds and loss as I aid. So the fix that would fix it for every one is just no loss PvP. I bet you wouldn't even play if when you died you had to start over. It's obvious though they aren't going your way , they already made it so if some one with a more expensive ships murders you they get a huge bounty and you get a discount. I mean I would let them kill me and I would go back and let them do it as many times as they wanted.

You aren't winning anything anyways now, unless your win is reading how some one whined you beat them lol which puts you in with the murder hobos. So all you want is to force the person disconnecting their internet to suffer some emotional pain for your win cause you think he will remember you lol talk about weird .

So yep murder hobos and weird people who think some ones gonna remember losing some credits in elite will lose with no loss PvP. Also a tiny group who like hard core games would lose. All those people put together are a tiny tiny minority. Those 3 groups tho usually are the loudest tho.

 

[Maka Gucci]

I think Cosmic's suggestion is a great one.. I had an FW cmdr in an Anny, combat log to a request for 8 tons of cargo, the other day. Sent the auto-hot key message, waited a few seconds, and he disappears. Comms player panel was messed up, so I couldn't tell exactly who it was to report em (as if that would have done anything).
Then I went back to looking for people to interdict.

I wasn't "waiting" around for him, but if he'd had to log back in to Open I'd have caught him doing it. If he couldn't play for the hour I hung around, then how ever amusing he found his cowardice, I'd still be having fun, and he'd still be afraid to log back in. Sounds like a fair punishment to me..

 

[Riverside]

That is not removing anything. The main benefit from it is not losing your ship. If you unplug your router and go do something else you keep your ship and the other person loses even more cause they are gonna sit there waiting hoping the person comes back. Now they got more of a reason to do it, laughing at the person sitting there. I mean why would you think the person would come back if he knows he's gonna be in the same spot. That is the same thing as thinking giving some one bans is gonna stop them. They don't want you to blow up their ship, so they are gonna unplug. All your idea would do is be a lot of work coding with almost no benefit .

If losing some credits is the only reason u remember PvP you must have a shallow experience already. I wouldn't remember if some one blew up my ship cause I had to pay credits to get it back lol. I might remember them if I thought they were skillful.

So according to you here is what they should do. Make it so when you die your dead end of character have to start totally over. That is the only way that would have any meaning. If they made this a hard core game it would be dead in a matter of days. I'd still play tho I like hardcore this is far from hard core . Your still in the minority with the murder hobos. The majority def don't like PvP with huge grinds and loss as I aid. So the fix that would fix it for every one is just no loss PvP. I bet you wouldn't even play if when you died you had to start over. It's obvious though they aren't going your way , they already made it so if some one with a more expensive ships murders you they get a huge bounty and you get a discount. I mean I would let them kill me and I would go back and let them do it as many times as they wanted.

You aren't winning anything anyways now, unless your win is reading how some one whined you beat them lol which puts you in with the murder hobos. So all you want is to force the person disconnecting their internet to suffer some emotional pain for your win cause you think he will remember you lol talk about weird .

So yep murder hobos and weird people who think some ones gonna remember losing some credits in elite will lose with no loss PvP. Also a tiny group who like hard core games would lose. All those people put together are a tiny tiny minority. Those 3 groups tho usually are the loudest tho.

You seem to believe there is no point in trying because it might not cover every contingency.

I'll try to remember to come back with a more precise response but in the mean time, have you read through the thread? Most of your points have already been made, and counterargument offered. If you'd like to contribute an alternative suggestion that closes the loopholes you identify I'd be happy for the help.

 

[Sethioz]

1 hour ban for any type of disconnect? NO! Had 2 random server errors yesterday. You need to make it FAIR towards all parties.

Here's my proposal.
If you do it in solo or against AI, you should receive no punishment. If you do it in PvP (when in danger from other players) then you should surely receive some sort of punishment.
I like the idea that someone recommended, make it possible for the player to log back into the same server only, so your enemy can just camp it out and wait for you to log back in.

But here's my big idea, how about a combat log bounty? Perhaps you should call it the chicken bounty? If someone logs out in PvP, then you get a global bounty that cannot be paid off, you either have to die or wait 24 hours before it's gone, during that time any and all ships can attack you without getting a wanted level. That includes stations if you get scanned.
This could be made more severe if you keep doing this. For example if you combat log once, you get 1 hour bounty, do it again within 24h and you get 12 hours bounty, do it again and 24h, then 2 days, 5 days, 1 week and perhaps even 1 month and if you still do it, then permanent bounty until you die (with the ship that was first involved in the combat logging).
and that bounty should be active for ALL ships, but can only be removed either when timer runs out or if you die with the ship that first got the combat log bounty on it.

I was gonna suggest that you should be able to pay the bounty to the other player involved, but then people would just exploit this to make player to player payments.

 

[AbsinthSvK]

no deep suggestion needed. just fix existing log-off timer. You punishment is your ship stay in location.

 

[Riverside]

no deep suggestion needed. just fix existing log-off timer. You punishment is your ship stay in location.

Unfortunately that is a 'deeper' suggestion than almost any other

There is no mechanism to host your ship if you disconnect, adding one would be expensive on resources, potentially requiring fundamental changes to the way the game works. It is a popular suggestion though.