Combat Logging Punishment Proposal

[Chrystoph]

I'm no expert but I believe the peers need to agree what happened. If you disconnect from the server the game will drop you back to the menu after a few seconds (or if the next transaction update fails, ship destruction would be a transaction update).

You have complete control over who you exchange traffic with, but I think your datastream would need to agree with the others in your instance for a change to be successful. Like I said I'm no expert

You have a bright future in American politics. You admit you you don't know how the system works, then make decisions on situations you know nothing about.

 

[Riverside]

You have a bright future in American politics. You admit you you don't know how the system works, then make decisions on situations you know nothing about.

What decisions am I making? I only replied because no one else did, and qualified my post. I know a thing can be done, I didn't go into detail. If you want some detail varonica gives an example in post #432.

 

[DARGAN]

translator

for the change of IP address I think it's simple detected .. every time it happened I was not in danger, I have no chance, it's a fixed day Tuesday morning at home.

 

[Riverside]

translator

for the change of IP address I think it's simple detected .. every time it happened I was not in danger, I have no chance, it's a fixed day Tuesday morning at home.

The suggestions in this thread only affect you when your ship is in danger. If you are accidentally disconnected while the ship is in danger you can just log back into the mode you left and carry on where you left off.

 

[gpcustoms]

Okay this is an interesting thread. Hmmmmm[blah]
Make interactions like a mission critical message from player to player where the receiving party has to accept. If he declines and the pimple pirate still attacks then the wrath of FD shall come down upon the pirate as will the same swift furry if one should combat log upon acceptance of the mission request from the other party.
Instant mission failure and painful fine and bounty.:O
In the meantime perhaps the players who mind their own business will interact more with a sense that unprovoked PVP is in check.
Non human interaction would remain as it is with the same corney phrases etc,...blah blah blah.:x

 

[Riverside]

Okay this is an interesting thread. Hmmmmm[blah]
Make interactions like a mission critical message from player to player where the receiving party has to accept. If he declines and the pimple pirate still attacks then the wrath of FD shall come down upon the pirate as will the same swift furry if one should combat log upon acceptance of the mission request from the other party.
Instant mission failure and painful fine and bounty.:O
In the meantime perhaps the players who mind their own business will interact more with a sense that unprovoked PVP is in check.
Non human interaction would remain as it is with the same corney phrases etc,...blah blah blah.:x

Having to accept an invitation to danger would take the wind out of the sails of existential threat, I'm not sure I'd be in favour of that & it seems unconnected to CLogging other than their both being about not wanting to play a certain way. You might be better off putting this suggestion in it's own thread, or adding your thoughts to an existing 'PvP flag' suggestion.

With regard to CLogging your suggestion doesn't cater for unintentional disconnects, it only adds a different punishment. One of the issues with any kind of punishment is that the distinction between deliberately and accidentally disconnecting is the intent of the player concerned, which cannot be known for a single event. If multiple events are captured (with the proposed karma system for example) a trend can be established. If the evidence becomes compelling (beyond reasonable doubt) then sanctions could be applied.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

Combat logging proposal-

I would tie in Clogging to the karma system. The karma system would operate in parallel to crime and punishment and would only apply to basically cases on cheating i.e. combat logging, tactical use of block, misuse of report tools or some fairly anti social behavior outside any actual gameplay. For the record griefing & ganking would be within C&P but trolling and abuse that get reported would go in Karma.

Lets say we have a karma score from 0 to 10, where 0 is normal the game would function as is now. Greater than 0 and a cmdr would have a RNG risk of cmdr death upon ship destruction, a score of 10 would be instant cmdr death no matter what (no ship destruction necessary). I.e. the account would be automatically reset, so back to the sidey all credits & ships gone. This would act as a basic deterrent to potential cheaters, whilst, not stopping the flow on the game.

Karma points are gained for combat logging etc. (the exact amount of would be determined by the devs) but lets say it's 3 points for this example. If 3 karma points are gained then then is a 30% chance of death upon destruction. Certain amounts of flexibly in the scoring system could be adopted e.g. first offense might gain a cmdr 1 point, second might be 3, third might get 6 etc. Time factors could also be introduce to substract karma points with gamplay time but i would be careful doing this as it can easily be abused. i.e. leave the game running.

Mechanism
1. If a cmdr suspects another of clogging, then a report button/option is available ingame from the message board by clicking on the cmdr contact list for example. The report must be made within a certain time frame (e.g. 1 minute) in game so the server time can be verified. Take some video evidence as well which can be sent to the mods though the menu or forum at a later date.

2. The suspected cmdr then gets a warning with a time period to submit evidence of an internet problem.

3. If the suspected cmdr can't provide the evidence then they are awarded the karma points and the kill can be retrospectively added to the appropriate cmdr also. This can be done automatically.

4. If the suspected cmdr can provide evidence (ISP logs etc.) then this can be reviewed by the moderators an if the evidence checks out no further action is taken. Hopefully the devs can come up with a streamline way of dealing with this.

Statistics can be used to deal with the back log of incidences, e.g. current karma score (has the cmdr got form, high scores top of queue), are they from areas of known internet issues etc. (areas know issues drop down the queue) This will stream line the case load. Misuse of report tool will be punished by karma points also.

I think this system would be fair, possibly some might consider harsh but the whole point it is a deterrent. Dealing with the genuine cases of disconnection by internet outage would be fairly dealt with also.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Combat logging proposal-

I would tie in Clogging to the karma system. The karma system would operate in parallel to crime and punishment and would only apply to basically cases on cheating i.e. combat logging, tactical use of block, misuse of report tools or some fairly anti social behavior outside any actual gameplay. For the record griefing & ganking would be within C&P but trolling and abuse that get reported would go in Karma.

Lets say we have a karma score from 0 to 10, where 0 is normal the game would function as is now. Greater than 0 and a cmdr would have a RNG risk of cmdr death upon ship destruction, a score of 10 would be instant cmdr death no matter what (no ship destruction necessary). I.e. the account would be automatically reset, so back to the sidey all credits & ships gone. This would act as a basic deterrent to potential cheaters, whilst, not stopping the flow on the game.

Karma points are gained for combat logging etc. (the exact amount of would be determined by the devs) but lets say it's 3 points for this example. If 3 karma points are gained then then is a 30% chance of death upon destruction. Certain amounts of flexibly in the scoring system could be adopted e.g. first offense might gain a cmdr 1 point, second might be 3, third might get 6 etc. Time factors could also be introduce to substract karma points with gamplay time but i would be careful doing this as it can easily be abused. i.e. leave the game running.

Mechanism
1. If a cmdr suspects another of clogging, then a report button/option is available ingame from the message board by clicking on the cmdr contact list for example. The report must be made within a certain time frame (e.g. 1 minute) in game so the server time can be verified. Take some video evidence as well which can be sent to the mods though the menu or forum at a later date.

2. The suspected cmdr then gets a warning with a time period to submit evidence of an internet problem.

3. If the suspected cmdr can't provide the evidence then they are awarded the karma points and the kill can be retrospectively added to the appropriate cmdr also. This can be done automatically.

4. If the suspected cmdr can provide evidence (ISP logs etc.) then this can be reviewed by the moderators an if the evidence checks out no further action is taken. Hopefully the devs can come up with a streamline way of dealing with this.

Statistics can be used to deal with the back log of incidences, e.g. current karma score (has the cmdr got form, high scores top of queue), are they from areas of known internet issues etc. (areas know issues drop down the queue) This will stream line the case load. Misuse of report tool will be punished by karma points also.

I think this system would be fair, possibly some might consider harsh but the whole point it is a deterrent. Dealing with the genuine cases of disconnection by internet outage would be fairly dealt with also.

I'd rather not have to have a court hearing to determine if my internet shat itself or not. Lol

And how would I even prove it? By live streaming my router status? Lol

Good effort, but it'll require an entire team of moderators to check and verify what's going on.
The suggestion I made early on in the thread requires no input from anyone, and is entirely automated, and indiscriminate of whether you clogged on purpose or not.
But the punishment is simply mode locking.
But karma could be tied in to punish serial CLoggers for longer, and eventually just exile them to solo.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[CMDR_Elver]

I'd rather not have to have a court hearing to determine if my internet shat itself or not. Lol

And how would I even prove it? By live streaming my router status? Lol

Good effort, but it'll require an entire team of moderators to check and verify what's going on.
The suggestion I made early on in the thread requires no input from anyone, and is entirely automated, and indiscriminate of whether you clogged on purpose or not.
But the punishment is simply mode locking.
But karma could be tied in to punish serial CLoggers for longer, and eventually just exile them to solo.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

Yeah there is definitely an emphasis difference in the approaches. I will have a read of yours again but it might be better in terms of automatisation but it is unfair on genuine cases. Mode locking is not much of a sanction also, as Combat logging is just outside the realms of fair play imho. There is a team of moderators anyway apparently and all they will have to do is deal with the genuine case of internet outage! Most ISP will have a log of their performance on there websites. Potentially, though if Frontier have the ISP info of each player then they could get the downtimes direct for each company every week. Fdev should be able to construct a farily automated system for it. In most case Clogging and would be uncontested so it would be automated to a large extent.

 

[BigF]

Cmdr Elver

I agree with 99% of your idea. Its a shame it will likely not get implemented In any way.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

Cmdr Elver

I agree with 99% of your idea. Its a shame it will likely not get implemented In any way.

lol that is probably true but that has never stopped a forum thread!

what is the 1% that it falls down?

 

[BigF]

lol that is probably true but that has never stopped a forum thread!

what is the 1% that it falls down?

LOL , the randomised 30% chance of a reset screen, I'm the sort of lucky where that would be 99%

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Yeah there is definitely an emphasis difference in the approaches. I will have a read of yours again but it might be better in terms of automatisation but it is unfair on genuine cases. Mode locking is not much of a sanction also, as Combat logging is just outside the realms of fair play imho. There is a team of moderators anyway apparently and all they will have to do is deal with the genuine case of internet outage! Most ISP will have a log of their performance on there websites. Potentially, though if Frontier have the ISP info of each player then they could get the downtimes direct for each company every week. Fdev should be able to construct a farily automated system for it. In most case Clogging and would be uncontested so it would be automated to a large extent.

I'm not sure if you read my proposal, but it has a cruel irony to it. Which probably why I like it. Lol

If you ungracefully exit during danger (whether on purpose or not) you are only allowed back in to your previous mode.
While it doesn't have much effect on PvE, it can potentially put you right back where you left off with other CMDRs.
So if you pull the plug to escape a CMDR in Open, you can only rejoin Open for a limited time, you're locked out of all other modes. (Same happens in private groups, you'll be locked to that specific group)
There's a chance the CMDR might be waiting right where you vanished, or lurking in supercruise. So your choice is either risk coming back, or don't. Self inflicted punishment.

If your internet just craps out, then you're still locked to Open(or whatever), but in all likelihood, you was going to rejoin the same mode anyway.

Karma can track how often your internet dies during danger (only during danger, because it happens a lot during transitions sometimes). Too many drops in a certain time, and your mode lock timer increases.
Excessive use will lock you to solo for a certain time, with a polite message telling you your connection is too unreliable for P2P.

Again, I've heard no word from FD if this is even possible... But without tooting my own horn to much, it's the best solution which requires no input, or overly harsh punishment for unintentional disconnects.

Another idea that spawned from this, is that eventually it could be possible to preserve the entire instance, so random disconnects put you back where you was, with all ships, loot, and status intact.
Which would also sort PvE/solo combat logging, as well as with random disconnects during things like material gathering. But I imagine that's even harder to pull off.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[CMDR_Elver]

I'm not sure if you read my proposal, but it has a cruel irony to it. Which probably why I like it. Lol

If you ungracefully exit during danger (whether on purpose or not) you are only allowed back in to your previous mode.
While it doesn't have much effect on PvE, it can potentially put you right back where you left off with other CMDRs.
So if you pull the plug to escape a CMDR in Open, you can only rejoin Open for a limited time, you're locked out of all other modes. (Same happens in private groups, you'll be locked to that specific group)
There's a chance the CMDR might be waiting right where you vanished, or lurking in supercruise. So your choice is either risk coming back, or don't. Self inflicted punishment.

If your internet just craps out, then you're still locked to Open(or whatever), but in all likelihood, you was going to rejoin the same mode anyway.

Karma can track how often your internet dies during danger (only during danger, because it happens a lot during transitions sometimes). Too many drops in a certain time, and your mode lock timer increases.
Excessive use will lock you to solo for a certain time, with a polite message telling you your connection is too unreliable for P2P.

Again, I've heard no word from FD if this is even possible... But without tooting my own horn to much, it's the best solution which requires no input, or overly harsh punishment for unintentional disconnects.

Another idea that spawned from this, is that eventually it could be possible to preserve the entire instance, so random disconnects put you back where you was, with all ships, loot, and status intact.
Which would also sort PvE/solo combat logging, as well as with random disconnects during things like material gathering. But I imagine that's even harder to pull off.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

Yeah I went back and had another proper read through! I am not knocking your idea at all, although it comes from a different ethos to mine. It has its merits and it does have a well considered logic and flow to it. Also if the technical side stacks up it would not need any extra administering! I take the point that it would be as fair (as it can be) on genuine disconnects also. Plus you make a fair point which my idea doesn't address is combat logging from an NPC battle. If the ideas were implemented it would improve the combat logging situation. +1 rep.

I am not qualified enough to comment on the more technical details of the idea unfortunately. I remember posting some ideas of a similar vain a will go. Think it was it there is a connection error couldn't you ship be controlled by an NPC until the connection was re-established but there were fundamental P2P issues why this couldn't happen. I suspect the ultimate answer to combat logging from a technical point of view would be a move away from P2P but that is not going to happen soon.

My main critique on your idea is it kind of legitimizes Clogging to a large extent, although, to be fair your idea does give the benefit of the doubt to genuine disconnects. The problem with this is Clogging good still be used as a tactic. For example in combat zones if respawning at minute of so later the original opponent might well be destroyed or busy fighting some else. It is not much of a deterrent just not being able to mode switch for a time period, which, [switching] is in itself an exploit/cheat. Modes and switching in general is another debate all together and anything with a time period can be side stepped fairly easily.

In summary your idea wants to find a technical solution to disconnection and to normalize it. I suppose with karma should have a role with looking at the long term trends but we still do not have much of a clue of how this will work. Other than Fdev hinting it will be a Pilots Federation thing! My ethos is accept Clogging is inevitable exploit with P2P and make combat logging not worthwhile especially in the long run. Less technical from a network point of view but perhaps more work from an admin point of view. It could be argued either way!

 

[Sentinel-7]

If a game is to be enjoyed at the players convenience.

1. Remove the 15 second malware timer.
2. Implement a whitelist and or blacklist so players can only see/play who they want to see/play.

combat logging no punishment solved.

 

[Riverside]

If a game is to be enjoyed at the players convenience.

1. Remove the 15 second malware timer.
2. Implement a whitelist and or blacklist so players can only see/play who they want to see/play.

combat logging no punishment solved.

How would removing the timer help? It is there to encourage you to move your ship out of danger before quitting the session.
There is already a whitelist (groups) and a blacklist (block individual players), you can use either or both freely already.

 

[DARGAN]

it is a hiding misery the timer of 15 seconds, it is always possible to leave before the end.

but it's a start, it gives the impression that the priority and out of danger without really thinking about leaving abruptly effectively.

the problem maybe treated upside down, if there is no reason or if it does not change anything to close the game abruptly voluntarily, why do it ?

for simplicity, if there is no loss (rebay, cargo, mission, exploration data, time..) to destruction there is no reason to do so.. and if the game gives us a medal if we are destroyed loL.. no one leaves the game abruptly voluntarily.. on the contrary I remain.

for example "world of warcraft" .. what a pleasure to die in this game .. I would die every day.. it is expressly done haha.

for the loss of involuntary connections there is nothing to do unfortunately it's like that, this does not depend on the game.

 

[Sentinel-7]

Obviously I'm talking about making the game enjoyable and convenient and about a whitelist and blacklist that can easily be configured from the client. Anything less I won't discuss.

The only point I failed to mention is:

3. To make the game well balanced.

 

[Riverside]

Obviously I'm talking about making the game enjoyable and convenient and about a whitelist and blacklist that can easily be configured from the client. Anything less I won't discuss.

The only point I failed to mention is:

3. To make the game well balanced.

Any ideas you have to improve the filters might be better off in a new thread (or add to an existing one if you can find one) rather than in here. Ditto with any suggestions you have on how to make the game well balanced.

 

[Pielander]

I'm afraid I haven't read all 31 pages of the thread yet, but as the proud owner of a flaky Internet connection, I'd quite like to add my twopenneth!

First of all, there's a expression that comes to mind here: "Better to let 100 guilty men go free than to punish an innocent man" (or something like that).

Given the number of people like me who end up being booted with infuriating regularity, I think any significant automatic sanction would be inappropriate, as it would inconvenience honest players far more than it would punish genuine C-loggers. Some of the more punitive suggestions in particular (including a 1 hour delay after disconnecting or straight to rebut for disconnecting when 'in danger') would make the game utterly unplayable for people like me.

However, I do have a couple of suggestions for if FDev really must change the game to make it fairer / more robust.

1. Provide a PvP sandbox area (like CQC) where players can fight each other in their own ship builds without incurring the rebuy cost.

And / or:

2. If a player is in an instance with one or more other players who are currently hostile to them, then they disconnect when 'in danger', then their ship remains in the instance for the duration of the 15s logout timer.

Possible variation on 2.:

- Make the ship remain in the instance for longer, but put an NPC pilot of equal rank to the player into the cockpit to hold the fort.

Pie