Responce to Yamiks Shield Video.

[Han_Zen]

Shields are 100% fine.


Between Thermal Weapons, Feedback Cascade Rails, and Reverberating Cascade Torpedoes, FDev have given CMDRs more than enough tools to absolutely REK shield tanks.

The problem is the majority of CMDRs are extremely lazy self entitled PVErs that can spend hours running Imp Slaves in a T9 from point A to point B, but can’t be *^%#$! to spend one or two hours to engineer the FDev provided solution/counter to meta shields.

Believe me, they are EASILY countered if one really wants to know how and takes the time.

I have an upcoming video that will show me repeatedly torping and killing Condas and Vettes with Meta Prismatic shields, in seconds, from a Stealth FGS, often by myself.

Why was this so easy? Because no one uses them (Reverb torps) and thus no one expects them.

I see almost no one using ECM.

If enough people used the counters meant to deal with these meta shields, it would force other CMDRs to make sacrifices/choices in utility slots and GIT GUD.

Two wrongs does not make a right. Just because there is a silly magic potion that works on slow unexpecting ships, does not justify mega shields.
Get rid of both. The MMO rock, scissor, paper noonsense isn’t doing the game any favours.

Using either is not gettin good. It’s an alternative to getting good.

 

[tanman]

Shields are 100% fine.


Between Thermal Weapons, Feedback Cascade Rails, and Reverberating Cascade Torpedoes, FDev have given CMDRs more than enough tools to absolutely REK shield tanks.

The problem is the majority of CMDRs are extremely lazy self entitled PVErs that can spend hours running Imp Slaves in a T9 from point A to point B, but can’t be *^%#$! to spend one or two hours to engineer the FDev provided solution/counter to meta shields.

Believe me, they are EASILY countered if one really wants to know how and takes the time.

I have an upcoming video that will show me repeatedly torping and killing Condas and Vettes with Meta Prismatic shields, in seconds, from a Stealth FGS, often by myself.

Why was this so easy? Because no one uses them (Reverb torps) and thus no one expects them.

I see almost no one using ECM.

If enough people used the counters meant to deal with these meta shields, it would force other CMDRs to make sacrifices/choices in utility slots and GIT GUD.

skill? In this game? HA

I've seen more skill required in twitch shooters.

No, actually, now that I think about it, twitch shooters require some skill, especially when most twitch shooters happen to center around e-sports or being highly competitive. I would compare the skill required to an run-of-the-mill Korean MMO. Having skill in this game will benefit you in PVP, but most of this game doesn't require you to have much skill at all. You have to be technically inclined at the most, due to the controls in this game. You can just turn off your brain most of the time, especially in non pvp activities.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Except that wouldn't even fix the glaring issue of shields + engineering completely trivializing almost all PvE content in the game.

It'd certainly help though - and I doubt too many folks out of those left would complain. Besides which - Frontier could reintroduce engineering to NPC's again - they've already started that with ATR.

Anyway. I had a shower thought earlier today; "I shouldn't really care about Space Battles in ED. They're ridiculous. No space battle would look anything like what they are in ED. It's not even wrong - it's a total lie. A fabrication made up by Frontier because they saw Star Wars and think that style of battle looks GREAT on the big screen, so why not do the same in ED?" <-- This is the bit I think all of us realise anyway, right?

This led on to the next thought though; "And now I just made myself laugh out loud, because there are actually posters in the forums and on Reddit who take these battles very seriously and consider themselves some kind of expert and/or some kind of 'apex fighter' - on a completely fabricated and lying conceit that is the ED space battle. "

Then I questioned why I even bother with anything here - so I suspect this'll probably be the beginning of a vastly reduced input from me in these forums. I might pop in to read the latest dev post/announcement. Notwithstanding the odd announcement of any updates I have the strength to do for my program. All I know is I've stupidly been getting angry, annoyed, even depressed at something which ultimately is not even worth bothering about - a goddamned videogame. How sad is that?

Sayonara o7

 

[Frenotx]

It'd certainly help though - and I doubt too many folks out of those left would complain. Besides which - Frontier could reintroduce engineering to NPC's again - they've already started that with ATR.

Anyway. I had a shower thought earlier today; "I shouldn't really care about Space Battles in ED. They're ridiculous. No space battle would look anything like what they are in ED. It's not even wrong - it's a total lie. A fabrication made up by Frontier because they saw Star Wars and think that style of battle looks GREAT on the big screen, so why not do the same in ED?" <-- This is the bit I think all of us realise anyway, right?

This led on to the next thought though; "And now I just made myself laugh out loud, because there are actually posters in the forums and on Reddit who take these battles very seriously and consider themselves some kind of expert and/or some kind of 'apex fighter' - on a completely fabricated and lying conceit that is the ED space battle. "

Then I questioned why I even bother with anything here - so I suspect this'll probably be the beginning of a vastly reduced input from me in these forums. I might pop in to read the latest dev post/announcement. Notwithstanding the odd announcement of any updates I have the strength to do for my program. All I know is I've stupidly been getting angry, annoyed, even depressed at something which ultimately is not even worth bothering about - a goddamned videogame. How sad is that?

Sayonara o7

Why is it your assumption that all PvE combat players want a ridiculously easy, 0-risk experience? If I just wanted to watch a bunch of ships explode I'd watch a video. I play games because I want a challenge. I want to feel as though I'm improving. I want there to be things that are too hard for me to do now, such that I can aspire to improve enough to do them later. Yes it's not "real space combat", but why does that matter? Do people play games like skyrim because it's "real melee combat"? "Real mage combat"? Facing a challenge, then working to improve your relevant in-game skills (regardless of how arbitrary or unrealistic they are) to conquer that challenge is the core concept behind a pretty broad segment video gaming.

If the space combat in Elite were extremely simulation-esque, would that somehow more worth caring about getting good at it? Why would it? Preparing for all that real-life space combat that you intend to do / happens all the time?

 

[Han_Zen]

they're not gonna ditch all that stuff. They're just not. So let's talk about ways that FDEV might actually be willing to implement.

Restrict them to military slots.

Also removing the OC PP blue print would help a lot.

 

[Riverside]

they're not gonna ditch all that stuff. They're just not. So let's talk about ways that FDEV might actually be willing to implement.

This is the point. If you think that's not going to happen (I'm inclined to agree) then by the same logic massive shields aren't going away either. They should, it would be the right thing to do (probably), but it's not realistic to expect or demand it, any more than it would be to demand a PvE flag or removal of PvP.

 

[Riverside]

Why is it your assumption that all PvE combat players want a ridiculously easy, 0-risk experience?

It isn't. The PvE crowd have engineering as a difficulty slider. If you are not so great at combat but are good at (or are prepared to) farm for mats, you too can compete.

Plus different players have different comfort levels, different requirements for what it takes for them to feel safe. An analogy might be to compare the 402 fighting style to the 042 one (distributor pips).

 

[Frenotx]

It isn't. The PvE crowd have engineering as a difficulty slider. If you are not so great at combat but are good at (or are prepared to) farm for mats, you too can compete.

Plus different players have different comfort levels, different requirements for what it takes for them to feel safe. An analogy might be to compare the 402 fighting style to the 042 one.

So it's your opinion that engineering, one of a small number of headline features of season 2, should just be a difficulty slider for PvE players? What of players that are good at the game, but actually like a challenge? Is that entire feature just not for them, then?

"Here's this big feature that we're going to spend tons of development resources on. Many other game elements are going to be tied to it. If you're good at the game and like a challenge though, don't use it- it will just make the game boring for you."

Why should people need to artificially handicap themselves to find challenge in the game? What is so horrifying about the idea of some aspects being too challenging for some players? Ideally, there'd be some aspects of the game that are so hard even the best players can't do them comfortably. That way everyone has something to be working towards.

 

[Riverside]

So it's your opinion that engineering, one of a small number of headline features of season 2, should just be a difficulty slider for PvE players? What of players that are good at the game, but actually like a challenge? Is that entire feature just not for them, then?

"Here's this big feature that we're going to spend tons of development resources on. Many other game elements are going to be tied to it. If you're good at the game and like a challenge though, don't use it- it will just make the game boring for you."

Well as far as PvE goes, FDev have introduced more challenging scenarios, both for the 'ordinary' player and the more advanced. My main ship is a Corvette with around 1,000 shield hitpoints & around 2,000 hull points. It's engineered (still legacy stuff) with the 5 roll grade 5 technique. Not amazing, but I'm happy with it. I recently added a single non-engineered class B shield booster based on the revised challenge in 3.0, and what I'm asking the shields to soak up.

I could go all out & engineer it all and the result would be the same (me not dying unless I make a mistake), I'd be playing on easy mode, just as all the PvP'ers do with 8 boosters & a kb/m to help them be Fa-off fixed 'gods'.

Balance in Engineering would be good, sidegrades instead of upgrades. But it's only actually a problem in PvP. I completely understand the problem it causes for PvP, I've done a few 20min+ fights and it just gets dull after 5-7mins. Now if a PvE player thinks their megaCutter is boring they can just switch ships to have some fun.

If I see a player with a tonne of shield boosters I see a player that is afraid to die.

 

[jasonbarron]

For whatever it's worth, I've been having the most fun of my ED PvP career flying in a Chieftain with less than 500 mj's of shield. Probably closer to 450, but with good resistances and a decent recharge. And that's coming from some pretty well shielded FdL loadouts. I'm not doing it because its the most effective, but rather the most interesting and exciting.

So, a vote for re-balancing shields, I guess

 

[Riverside]

Which again, I'd go with limiting power output. PVE people can still do OP shields if they aren't top notch pilots, they just wouldn't also have top notch weapons. Meanwhile, PVP players have more interesting choices. You can't max out everything, so you have to make decisions. Do you go with more shields or sacrifice some defense for damage?

I think limiting power output is the one solution that can work for all playstyles and game modes. You're not nerfing shields or weapons, but you are forcing people to make interesting decisions.

I like this, it doesn't fall between two stools.

 

[Riverside]

For whatever it's worth, I've been having the most fun of my ED PvP career flying in a Chieftain with less than 500 mj's of shield. Probably closer to 450, but with good resistances and a decent recharge. And that's coming from some pretty well shielded FdL loadouts. I'm not doing it because its the most effective, but rather the most interesting and exciting.

So, a vote for re-balancing shields, I guess

Sub-optimal for the win

What you are doing here is artificially balancing yourself. As your technique improves you self-nerf because it's fun. But there's no need to force that on any other player, they might not feel as confident as you.

 

[Frenotx]

Which again, I'd go with limiting power output. PVE people can still do OP shields if they aren't top notch pilots, they just wouldn't also have top notch weapons. Meanwhile, PVP players have more interesting choices. You can't max out everything, so you have to make decisions. Do you go with more shields or sacrifice some defense for damage?

I think limiting power output is the one solution that can work for all playstyles and game modes. You're not nerfing shields or weapons, but you are forcing people to make interesting decisions.

So if a player is both capable at the game and likes a challenge, they should effectively be barred from the bigger / more capable ships and the huge chunk of the game that is engineering? So as you get better at the game, the amount of stuff that's relevant to you goes down? As you learn and improve in the game, your stuff should get less and less powerful? That's some pretty bizarre progression.

All of this for... what? So people can engage in parts of the game they are clearly not ready to yet? So that nobody ever has things that are truly out of reach for them that they can aspire to one day be able to do? Let's consider the logical extreme for this approach:
1) Start with the biggest baddest stuff. Using this stuff, you can successfully engage in the hardest content in the game, despite being a complete novice to the game.
2) As you learn the game and improve, sell off more and more of your stuff to "self limit" and keep the game fun. The whole time you're still engaging in the hardest content in the game, since why do the easier stuff if you can already easily do the hardest stuff
3) The ultimate endgame, once you've completely mastered all the skills in the game, is flying around in a stock sidewinder.

 

[jasonbarron]

Sub-optimal for the win

What you are doing here is artificially balancing yourself. As your technique improves you self-nerf because it's fun. But there's no need to force that on any other player, they might not feel as confident as you.

It's probably worth noting that I have 3500 hull points and as long as I'm packing my point defense, capable of withstanding quite a lot of seekers being thrown my way.

Besides River, that was just my anecdotal, off the cuff thought on the subject. My "game balancing" opinion is right along with Truesilver & Frentox on this matter. Shield tanks have just gotten out of control.

 

[Riverside]

So if a player is both capable at the game and likes a challenge, they should effectively be barred from the bigger / more capable ships and the huge chunk of the game that is engineering? So as you get better at the game, the amount of stuff that's relevant to you goes down? As you learn and improve in the game, your stuff should get less and less powerful? That's some pretty bizarre progression.

All of this for... what? So people can engage in parts of the game they are clearly not ready to yet? So that nobody ever has things that are truly out of reach for them that they can aspire to one day be able to do?

I'd say so, yes. Just as there is a minimum capability, there is inevitably a maximum too. That said, if the player opts in to the content (ie it's not forced on them) it can scale up to impossible. That was done when the Thargoids were first introduced & IIRC it didn't go down well.

Shield tanks have just gotten out of control.

...in PvP.

 

[Han_Zen]

...in PvP.

PvE combat is in far worse shape than PvP. In PvP there is at least equal oportunity.

I more or less quit doing combat after a while in 1.2. That’s when I got my Vulture and learned about the wonders of strong shields and SCBs.

Before that I had to think about what I did in combat. After the SCB Vulture, it was farming.
The game rewarded me well for switching to farming. I made so much more money than I did doing real combat in my old Cobra. It was great.

Then it became dull. I have hardly been in a RES after that.
I sometimes take the Sidewinder out to hunt Eagles. Best PvE combat in the game.

All the all the massakre type comba(RES, CZ, missionst that the game rewards, feels wrong. It’s just 3D Space Invaders.

 

[jasonbarron]

I'd say so, yes. Just as there is a minimum capability, there is inevitably a maximum too. That said, if the player opts in to the content (ie it's not forced on them) it can scale up to impossible. That was done when the Thargoids were first introduced & IIRC it didn't go down well.



...in PvP.

No, not just PvP, but in general.

 

[Kylisse]

Right, they're fine in PvE because NPCs can't complain.

 

[jasonbarron]

PvE combat is in far worse shape than PvP. In PvP there is at least equal oportunity.

I more or less quit doing combat after a while in 1.2. That’s when I got my Vulture and learned about the wonders of strong shields and SCBs.

Before that I had to think about what I did in combat. After the SCB Vulture, it was farming.
The game rewarded me well for switching to farming. I made so much more money than I did doing real combat in my old Cobra. It was great.

Then it became dull. I have hardly been in a RES after that.
I sometimes take the Sidewinder out to hunt Eagles. Best PvE combat in the game.

All the all the massakre type comba(RES, CZ, missionst that the game rewards, feels wrong. It’s just 3D Space Invaders.

I think this is on point: combat unless self nerfing has gotten very dull. Setting aside individuals holding dear to their uber shield walls, is that really a healthy place for the game to be? Elite Dangerous, that game with lackluster combat...

 

[Riverside]

No, not just PvP, but in general.

You are saying players that lack self control should be saved from themselves by the game? Fair comment I guess

What do you think about NecoMachina's suggestion?

Which again, I'd go with limiting power output. PVE people can still do OP shields if they aren't top notch pilots, they just wouldn't also have top notch weapons. Meanwhile, PVP players have more interesting choices. You can't max out everything, so you have to make decisions. Do you go with more shields or sacrifice some defense for damage?

I think limiting power output is the one solution that can work for all playstyles and game modes. You're not nerfing shields or weapons, but you are forcing people to make interesting decisions.