The problem with CnP is not CnP itself. It's how it happens and lack of recourse.

[jasonbirder]

Not really sure I understand the problem...I've had an incident where I was "casual" with target selection...did a bit of friendly fire...got "Wanted Status" and was chased by System Security hell-bent on retribution...

Was it my fault? Yes...I was careless...its easily done...BUT still hitting an innocent with multi-megajoule Lasers SHOULD have consequence...
DO I know whats happened? Yes! It clearly states WANTED status on your HUD when you incur a bounty
Can I clear it immediately? Yes...just jump outsystem, visit an Interstellat Factor...pay off Bounty (the odd friendly fire incident ISN'T enough to incur notoriety)

Where is the difficulty, injustice or confusion in that process chain?

 

[Sylow]

Sometimes I wonder why are there even fines when almost every offense results in a 200Cr bounty.

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Interestingly enough, i by now twice have gotten me fined for reckles weapon discharge, but never an assault bounty yet. (So no, apparently i am not able to learn. Both those fines i got when soloing wing assassination missions, where i attacked before my scan was done. )
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Based on that, according to my personal experience, the system works. Of course, my combat ships of choice are the Imperial Courier and the Alliance Chieftain. (For wing assassination missions i only use the Chieftain, though. I am not good enough to dodge fire from six enemies in my Courier, so i need the better survivability of the Chieftain there. ) So yes, ships with more firepower than mine experience the effect of going straight to bounties, while my lightweight ships don't pack the punch to do that.
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This again reinforces the point i made above: our ships firepower scales over a too big spectrum. The current scope of shield capacity requires this. So i really consider a rework on offense and defense (basically neutering a lot of what Engineers do) to be essential. Only once these things were brought in line, it's actually possible to give C&P more solid parameters to distinguish between reckless fire and assault.
.

 

[BDelacroix]

I hear the guys saying consequences, consequences, consequences, but I fear some have lost sight of the fact that it's supposed to be fun.

For some, watching other people squirm or burn is fun. Not for me, but it is a thing apparently.

 

[operant]

(the odd friendly fire incident ISN'T enough to incur notoriety)

'murder' = notoriety. Unless it changed.

 

[uliando]

Can't you switch to ship you came in when you are in hot ship?

 

[Aashenfox]

Not really sure I understand the problem...I've had an incident where I was "casual" with target selection...did a bit of friendly fire...got "Wanted Status" and was chased by System Security hell-bent on retribution...

Was it my fault? Yes...I was careless...its easily done...BUT still hitting an innocent with multi-megajoule Lasers SHOULD have consequence...
DO I know whats happened? Yes! It clearly states WANTED status on your HUD when you incur a bounty
Can I clear it immediately? Yes...just jump outsystem, visit an Interstellat Factor...pay off Bounty (the odd friendly fire incident ISN'T enough to incur notoriety)

Where is the difficulty, injustice or confusion in that process chain?

Your extremely simplified process chain does not invalidate the process chains clearly described in the OP.

If I hit an eagle with my huge PA, I don't expect that eagle to be able to hound me from the instance in my corvette. It;s immersion breakingly stupid that he would give me no choice but to either leave the instance or defend myself. Also, between those two choices, I know which I'm going ot take, (or at least, until 3.0), I'm going to preserve my fun and right to stay in the instance and kil them. Now, in 3.0, the punishment for those 10 seconds of 'fun' is cruel and unusual.

I can fully accept if you disagree, that is your right, but to say you don't understand what mine and others' complaints are, is a stretch, when it's described in the OP. It's about fun over 'consequences'.

This thread is to address the root cause of people feeling frustrated by the current CnP, not to change it or decry it, just change AI behaviours (and add a hand myself in mechanic) so that it makes better sense, and doesn't leave players feeling treated unfairly, which I can assure you is the case, as I have felt it myself! I made it through my 18 hours of notoriety and will think twice before having any fun again.

Bounty = notoriety. Unless it changed.

Murder = notoriety. Bounty just means bounty. That's how it has always been. Planetary scan trespass bounties, for example, even skimmer murder, no notoriety, only ship kills.

 

[Aashenfox]

For some, watching other people squirm or burn is fun. Not for me, but it is a thing apparently.

No doubt, but naturally I don't expect FD to cater or pander to the maladjusted or criminally insane

 

[operant]

Murder = notoriety. Bounty just means bounty. That's how it has always been. Planetary scan trespass bounties, for example, even skimmer murder, no notoriety, only ship kills.

Yes, thanks. What I meant and should have said - well npc ship destruction anyway. Nobody harmed.
(Still not sure what happened. I think I may have winged it accidentally and think either the npc fighter or something else finished it off.).

 

[Aashenfox]

Yes, thanks. What I meant and should have said - well npc ship destruction anyway. Nobody harmed.
(Still not sure what happened. I think I may have winged it accidentally and think either the npc fighter or something else finished it off.).

This happened to me twice in one night the other week (first week of 3.0), to say I was spitting teeth was an understatement. Stray shot hit an NPC, got a fine, then another NPC finished it off while I still had 'aggro', bang, my kill, my bounty. GRRRRR! Twice in one session, murder bounties for a single shot.

 

[Ashnak]

...
1) I got shot.
2) Am I the player's target? If yes, go to 3. If not, go to 4.
...
4) Return to my business.
...

This won't fly. Want proof? Meet me in-game in an Anarchy (don't like having notoriety...). I'll bring a Sidey. As long as you don't react on my fire, I'll boil you up without ever targeting you.
There needs to be a damage level involved here, at the very least. Problem is, engineered high-end weapons will be over that level with a single stray shot. A stock sidey has 52 shields and 108 hull. A single burp from a decent class 3 weapon will pulverize it.

Please implement a 'hand myself in' mechanism. Make it clear ONLY NPC bounties.


If the way I got 'wanted' was logical, and deserved, I would have no issue with the consequences. The fact is they've installed the punishment system before the justice system.

My 2c.

Did you read the thread about what's considered for the next C&P update? Sandro proposed essentially what would be a "turn myself in" possibility: any bounty not involving murder could be paid off at the security contact of the issuing faction (provided you make it there...).
FD (and I can agree with them there) doesn't want to distinguish between NPC and player crime.

 

[jasonbirder]

If I hit an eagle with my huge PA, I don't expect that eagle to be able to hound me from the instance in my corvette. It;s immersion breakingly stupid that he would give me no choice but to either leave the instance or defend myself. Also, between those two choices, I know which I'm going ot take, (or at least, until 3.0), I'm going to preserve my fun and right to stay in the instance and kil them. Now, in 3.0, the punishment for those 10 seconds of 'fun' is cruel and unusual.

I'm not sure I understand what alternative you're suggesting...
You commit a crime...you become Wanted...wanted status means people can 9and will attack you)...if you kill one of these ships you incur notoriety, which increases the time difficulty in clearing off the Bounty/Wanted Status
So far...so logical...

Where are you looking for a "break" in this chain?

Hitting Unwanted/Friendly ships with Heavy Weapons SHOULDN'T be Penalised?
If attacked by the "Police/Law Enforcement" you should be able to kill the "police/law Enforcement" without penalty or consequence?
Being a "Wanted" Criminal in a system shouldn't impact on your access to services/status with controlling faction?

I'm not sure how you can break the consequence chain Friendly Fire>Bounty>Wanted>"Cop Killing" NOT allowed without making the whole C&P system laughable...

 

[the source 0179]

A bounty on you means "we want you dead and are prepared to pay some credits to see that happen", so the hand-yourself-in mechanism already exists. Fly up to an appropriate security ship, let it scan you and then kill you; bounty's purpose fulfilled.

A bounty doesn't mean they want some money off you, that would be a fine.

Well in reality when a bounty is put on someone its to get them apprehended and get them to pay for their crimes. Not kill them.

 

[Aashenfox]

I'm not sure I understand what alternative you're suggesting...
You commit a crime...you become Wanted...wanted status means people can 9and will attack you)...if you kill one of these ships you incur notoriety, which increases the time difficulty in clearing off the Bounty/Wanted Status
So far...so logical...

Where are you looking for a "break" in this chain?

Hitting Unwanted/Friendly ships with Heavy Weapons SHOULDN'T be Penalised?
If attacked by the "Police/Law Enforcement" you should be able to kill the "police/law Enforcement" without penalty or consequence?
Being a "Wanted" Criminal in a system shouldn't impact on your access to services/status with controlling faction?

I'm not sure how you can break the consequence chain Friendly Fire>Bounty>Wanted>"Cop Killing" NOT allowed without making the whole C&P system laughable...

It;s all in the OP mate, but I'll spoon feed you the first one.

Hitting clean ships in a known war zone (HAZARDOUS (the clue is in the name) RES) during legitimate combat, by accident (I'm careful, always, but it still happens, sometimes) should not result in bounties, no. Nor should it result in the AI turning suicidally psychotic. CnP is what happens after that event, so where you are wanted or for how long is not part of the scope of this thread. We're only talking abou thow to improve the immersion during the process of getting wanted. Make the AI make better decisions.

Once again, what it comes down to is if you think that a single stray shot should lead to you breaking off a fight, recalling the fighter and fleeing the instance. I think it should not mean that. And I don't want CnP to change, I want the AI to make better decicions. At the time he is hit, he has to think "hang on a minute, if I attack that ship and he decides to attack me back, I'm brown bread, better I leave IF I think he's after me", but even better would be a realisation that the player ISN:T after them.

Are you with me now?

 

[daman]

third option is equip a decent fsd and fly to an anarchy.

its your outfitting choices in this case which is the issue not the system.

of course u can choose to stick to 1d but accept the consequences

 

[Aashenfox]

third option is equip a decent fsd and fly to an anarchy.

its your outfitting choices in this case which is the issue not the system.

of course u can choose to stick to 1d but accept the consequences

Think you replied to the wrong thread mate. The thread about getting stranded is.... thataway! This one is about more recourse and better battle decision making of the AI.

 

[daman]

was in response to problem 3 mentioned in first post.

do sympathise with the issue of FF tho.

 

[jasonbirder]

Are you with me now?

I was with you before
I think that if you commit (what is undoubtedly) a crime...withdrawing your Hardpoints and High-Waking out to another jurisdiction to clear your Bounty is a reasonable consequence...and adds "immersion"
You feel that either the intent (accidental) or the Environment (Haz Res) should negate that consequence chain...I (sort of) understand your argument...but in essence I feel its just adding a bit of variety to the massacre mission/BGS gameplay isn't it?

 

[Aashenfox]

I was with you before
I think that if you commit (what is undoubtedly) a crime...withdrawing your Hardpoints and High-Waking out to another jurisdiction to clear your Bounty is a reasonable consequence...and adds "immersion"
You feel that either the intent (accidental) or the Environment (Haz Res) should negate that consequence chain...I (sort of) understand your argument...but in essence I feel its just adding a bit of variety to the massacre mission/BGS gameplay isn't it?

I see what you mean, but it's about promoting fun. A change to the AI would prevent the situations where players (wrongly or rightly) feel victimised by the game for playing it. You can't deny its an issue for a lot of people and too many to say they should just not play the game. In the first case, I see the solution is easy (problem 1 in the OP). The second not so simple. The third is just about having a missing option.

My bottom line is still the same as in the OP, the punishment system was implemented before a justice system, so there is no justice, only harsh punishment. I like the harsh punishment, WHEN it's justified, and while I appreciate that it can be hard to differentiate between justified and unjustified (and that's how we end up with blanket systems), Elite would benefit from something a little more fine grained.

 

[Sylow]

My point is that this should have been considered BEFORE adding harsh CnP.

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My point here is that the current shield meta and the subsequent damage scaling prevents finding any reasonable damage threshold. But if we delay any progress in the game till the meta is fixed, things here might be on hold for a looooong time.
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In contrast, many people who wanted C&P and campaigned for it also were those who cried those rivers of tears when the shield meta was endangered of just the slightest nerf. Now they can't have both, no matter how much they still can cry. Either there is a reasonable C&P system, along with reasonably balanced shields and weapons, or the game keeps the crazy shield scaling and C&P will remain messy.
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The question now is, if it can be communicated to them in a way that they understand which way is the better to go for the game.
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[Aashenfox]

was in response to problem 3 mentioned in first post.

do sympathise with the issue of FF tho.

Gotcha, sorry, your post was so directly about the one issue, I just assumed.

But even so, I think suicide by cop is a ridiculous mechanism as the only way to 'submit to justice'.