The problem with CnP is not CnP itself. It's how it happens and lack of recourse.

[the source 0179]

Welcome back, Aashen. This is much more the analytical you again.
.

.
The problem here is where to draw the line.
.
Some of the big weapons pack a massive punch and people tend to have more than one of them on board. To go to extremes, picture a pair of G5 overcharged C4 Plasma Accelerators. (Yes, overcharge is not the usual modification done to them, but if you aim to do the maximum damage per shot, it's the way to go. ) Imagine that pair of Plasma Accelerators hit an unmodded Sidewinder. This doesn't just leave a small dent on the shields.
.
Even if you'd make the regulations very lenient, and you'd only get to assault when you damage dealt equals 80% of the targets shield capacity, some weapon layouts would still be able to do enough damage for an assault charge. At the same time, due to how defenses scale in this game, the high punch is necessary to also be able to harm high defense targets. Thus any actual fix for these problems requires to first bring shield strength in line again. So in the end, the current C&P issues here are rooted in our current balance issues. As long as they are not addressed, this problem of C&P also can't be taken care of.
.
.
Also, this one has one glaring problem:

.
Implement it like that and railguns will be the absolute exploit. Fire at an NPC without selecting it as a target and it'll not react till it explodes.
.
Mind you, in pure theory some "i am sorry" mechanic would be great, but in the end it has the same issues as the difference between "reckless weapon discharge" vs. "assault". Within the current weapon and defense scaling, it's not possible to find a point where it would generally be useful without also creating (rather simple to reach) cases, where it could be exploited for easy kills.
.
.
That all being said, i generally agree with your notion that C&P still can use a lot if improvement. Unfortunately i don't see how to reach a point which would please all sides as long as the current balancing of weapons and defences is in place. Only when defence (and then in turn perhaps also offense) is brought more in line again, it'll be possible to give C&P better threshold values to work with.
.

It could also be said that anyone with that much firepower and ability to use that much fire power should have other weapons on their ship and using the big guns lets say all the time no matter what the target is is a bit of an overkill and they should know when to use them and when not to and at what distance they should use them.

But in my opinion FD does need to address the situations of friendly fire, grazing etc then npc murders the other npc etc. Murder is not murder unless you actually murder them. Also why not just have it that you can pay your bounty at every station and outpost. Then there wouldn't be a problem with cmdrs being stuck. And the noriety should decay in real time not game time or lower the time for the first 2 levels of noriety so minor or accidents don't have to wait soo long. For levels above that well to bad your purposely doing it so deal.

 

[Sylow]

But even so, I think suicide by cop is a ridiculous mechanism as the only way to 'submit to justice'.

.
I agree there. But it seems like Sandro also realized that already. In the Focused Feedback area he posted a suggestion to discuss, which basically results in cleaning yourself of everything short of murder again with limited effort.
.
Sure it's currently "only" in Focused Feedback, so it won't be here the next few days, but i'd rather have the current system for a little longer, then get a good update, then having a row of quick and dirty fixes.
.

 

[Aashenfox]

.
I agree there. But it seems like Sandro also realized that already. In the Focused Feedback area he posted a suggestion to discuss, which basically results in cleaning yourself of everything short of murder again with limited effort.
.
Sure it's currently "only" in Focused Feedback, so it won't be here the next few days, but i'd rather have the current system for a little longer, then get a good update, then having a row of quick and dirty fixes.
.

Agreed.

 

[GG7]

I think the lower level crimes that most of us pickup just doing non combat related stuff carry far too much punitive consequences.

In other words, the punishments don't fit the crimes. Scanning surface beacons for example should result in a fine, not a bounty. This would make Planetary Scan missions less of a chore. That, or they could revert them back to how they were originally, where when you are sent to scan a beacon that belongs to the mission giver, it doesn't get you a 600CR bounty and WANTED System Wide for Trespassing.

 

[the source 0179]

This won't fly. Want proof? Meet me in-game in an Anarchy (don't like having notoriety...). I'll bring a Sidey. As long as you don't react on my fire, I'll boil you up without ever targeting you.
There needs to be a damage level involved here, at the very least. Problem is, engineered high-end weapons will be over that level with a single stray shot. A stock sidey has 52 shields and 108 hull. A single burp from a decent class 3 weapon will pulverize it.



Did you read the thread about what's considered for the next C&P update? Sandro proposed essentially what would be a "turn myself in" possibility: any bounty not involving murder could be paid off at the security contact of the issuing faction (provided you make it there...).
FD (and I can agree with them there) doesn't want to distinguish between NPC and player crime.

I haven't come across a stock sidewinder in a long long time.

 

[Aashenfox]

This won't fly. Want proof? Meet me in-game in an Anarchy (don't like having notoriety...). I'll bring a Sidey. As long as you don't react on my fire, I'll boil you up without ever targeting you.
There needs to be a damage level involved here, at the very least. Problem is, engineered high-end weapons will be over that level with a single stray shot. A stock sidey has 52 shields and 108 hull. A single burp from a decent class 3 weapon will pulverize it.



Did you read the thread about what's considered for the next C&P update? Sandro proposed essentially what would be a "turn myself in" possibility: any bounty not involving murder could be paid off at the security contact of the issuing faction (provided you make it there...).
FD (and I can agree with them there) doesn't want to distinguish between NPC and player crime.

Regarding first post, I did not at all intimate this was a solution ready to be implemented, I even made it clear this was a very simplified decision tree. We're talking about concepts not their specific implementations at the moment. If you have a better decision tree, please feel free to suggest it.

Regarding second, I'm not surprised, I've been bleating about it since 3.0.3 dropped and I had to wait 18 hours to swap out a module in my home system (not that I think my opinion should be weighted above anyone else's, simply because I've been rather vocal about exactly that, it would have been hard to miss a thread where I mentioned it and others supported it).

 

[Karamon]

My only issue with CnP right now is level of punishment for minor crimes .

Imagine geting speeding ticket and being locked from every gas station, every car mechanic, grocery store, coffee shop and even barber and being forced to go to another town just to pay that single speeding ticket ...... and that how this thing looks like here .


Seriously 300 cr fine can block me from using all services in station? And i can't pay that fine here? Seriously?

 

[the source 0179]

Hey Ashen. How about if security forces etc come after you once you are wanted you can just submit? retract hardpoints come to a complete stop. Then forces come along side of your ship and say something like. You have submitted and are being boarded and will be transferred to a detention facility. Screen goes to witchspace then you are at the detention facility screen. Pay off bounty you are cleared and back to it.
What do you think.

 

[the source 0179]

My only issue with CnP right now is level of punishment for minor crimes .

Imagine geting speeding ticket and being locked from every gas station, every car mechanic, grocery store, coffee shop and even barber and being forced to go to another town just to pay that single speeding ticket ...... and that how this thing looks like here .


Seriously 300 cr fine can block me from using all services in station? And i can't pay that fine here? Seriously?

Yep. I keep saying that you should be able to pay off bounties everywhere. Noriety should be the only thing that stops you from doing things.

 

[operant]

A 'weapons do not harm to unwanted ships' switch would help (me) a great deal.
It must be technically achievable, since I can engineer smart rounds for MC.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

Gotcha, sorry, your post was so directly about the one issue, I just assumed.

But even so, I think suicide by cop is a ridiculous mechanism as the only way to 'submit to justice'.

I do like the idea of being able to surrender peacefully, so long as it is accompanied by full price rebuy. Suicide by cop should be no rebuy option at all. That would work for me. Unsavory choices maybe, but totally viable.

 

[Aashenfox]

Hey Ashen. How about if security forces etc come after you once you are wanted you can just submit? retract hardpoints come to a complete stop. Then forces come along side of your ship and say something like. You have submitted and are being boarded and will be transferred to a detention facility. Screen goes to witchspace then you are at the detention facility screen. Pay off bounty you are cleared and back to it.
What do you think.

Love it (I must spread some rep around, etc etc ).

 

[Ashnak]

Regarding first post, I did not at all intimate this was a solution ready to be implemented, I even made it clear this was a very simplified decision tree. We're talking about concepts not their specific implementations at the moment. If you have a better decision tree, please feel free to suggest it.

That comes down to the AI implementation - a simple decision tree won't cut it, and it's been ages since I messed around with this...

There's some rudimentary behaviour in the AI alrady: a NPC may scan (or pull) you, and then apologize: the famous "I thought you were someone else". So the AI, at least on the moderate to higher NPC levels, already has a clue about when not to pick a fight. Let's build on that, i.e. assume the AI can get a realistic impression whether the fight could be winnable, and makes that decision with increased speed and accuracy the higher its level.

...

Here I started to write down some ideas, and the more I wrote down, the more complicated it became and the more subclauses I had to introduce.

So, basically, the AI needs to decide, based on:
- current status (e.g. involved in a fight)
- your behaviour (first offense or repeated, damage level, apology sent/HP retracted, relative ship/CMDR strengths)
- both legal states (are you wanted? does the AI care?)
- basic AI level (harmless is more prone to irrational behaviour than elite)

whether to retaliate (or at least put you on its "to do" list), ignore or retreat. That stuff gets too complicated to even bring it in a readable form here in the forum. And I pity the developer/community manager who would have to explain that to the general player base (basically, the AI response would look completely random, although it will be as a result of well defined rules).

Errmmm... does any of this still have anything to do with the thread title ?

 

[Straha Yeagar]

My only issue with CnP right now is level of punishment for minor crimes .

Imagine geting speeding ticket and being locked from every gas station, every car mechanic, grocery store, coffee shop and even barber and being forced to go to another town just to pay that single speeding ticket ...... and that how this thing looks like here .


Seriously 300 cr fine can block me from using all services in station? And i can't pay that fine here? Seriously?

Get fine for speeding, loitering, friendly fire. Land at station under something called like "anonymous protocol" or something. Go to contacts. Pay fine. Everything is unlocked. That sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea to me!

 

[Xious]

Agree with OP on the FF threshold... it's still silly.

Wuttaf@q are shields for? Think about it.

 

[Ashnak]

...
Seriously 300 cr fine can block me from using all services in station?

Yes. Seriously. Since you chose to bring up the real world analogy: over here, persistently not paying a speeding ticket can lead to imprisonment. Seriously. It's called "Erzwingungshaft" (coercive detention). Knew a priest who went up to that once (yes, for a speeding ticket...).

And i can't pay that fine here? Seriously?

Sure you can. Access to the contacts where you can pay that fine is possible under anonymous protocol.

Now, we can discuss whether the current level for obtaining a bounty is justified - but Sandro is doing exactly that (or rather, discussing the possiblity of paying off non-murder bounties at the local faction's office) over in the focussed feedback forum.

 

[Aashenfox]

Here I started to write down some ideas, and the more I wrote down, the more complicated it became and the more subclauses I had to introduce.

I am also that guy. So I feel you. But hey, we have paid a lot of money for this to be someone else's problem. I think given time (and not a great deal, a couple of dedicated days), I could come up with a workable decision tree that would be an improvement on current. I'm not arrogant enough to assume it would be the final implementation, but 'better than current'. At least have them wake out rather than attack you, if you are in a clearly superior ship. Tunring suisychotic (I just made up that word, great, innit!) makes me WANT to kill them, I feel I'm doing the galaxy a favor ridding the gene pool of a moron.

 

[galahad2069]

I think that if you commit (what is undoubtedly) a crime...withdrawing your Hardpoints and High-Waking out to another jurisdiction to clear your Bounty is a reasonable consequence...and adds "immersion"

Well, it certainly adds the "immersion" of being a criminal... like having to sneak out of the jurisdiction, visit some shady organization and pay them off to help you erase your record.

But what kind of "immersion" is this if you are basically a low-abiding citizen? Shouldn't you just walk up to the nearest policeman saying "I did something wrong unintentionally, here I am to face the consequences"? Why aren't you allowed to do so without leaving the jurisdiction where the crime was committed?