Obsidian Ant NEW VIDEO - Crime and Punishment is Flawed

[Weps]

My 2c? I find this whole discussion about the new C&P an overreaction.

The issues being brought up, like players not having the option to turn themselves in and having to resort to getting blown up by police, or players becoming criminals by indirect action of NPCs, are flukes which slipped past FDEV's radar, considering that the new C&P system got almost completely redesigned. Yes, FDEV should fix them ASAP. But calling the entire new C&P flawed because of such edge cases feels a bit much.

I mean... we lived with suicidewinders for years. When was the outcry then? This game has bigger problems than this player going for an undersized FSD or that player failing to exercise trigger discipline.

 

[Maro-Val]

To be honest, I just really can't be bothered to watch his videos anymore.

But you can be bothered to comment about it. Life is so boring right?

 

[Deleted member 115407]

I'm so tired of all of this whining and crying.

If you play this game deliberately, pay attention to what you're doing where, and put a minimal amount of forethought and planning into your play, then you won't get caught up by the C&P system.

If you play like a braindead , then the new C&P will be a problem for you.

Unfortunately I'm afraid it's the braindead who will wind up winning this fight.

 

[Maro-Val]

I'm so tired of all of this whining and crying.

If you play this game deliberately, pay attention to what you're doing where, and put a minimal amount of forethought and planning into your play, then you won't get caught up by the C&P system.

If you play like a braindead , then the new C&P will be a problem for you.

Unfortunately I'm afraid it's the braindead who will wind up winning this fight.

Oh here we have mr situational awareness. Yep most people are braindead and you are the smart one. In fact you are so smart, that you think the rest of us have a problem to avoid being caught up by the C&P system. Yep.. thats the main subject here, we have difficulty avoiding..

 

[Vorxian]

Thanks Obsidian - your videos are always welcome and command respect.

That said.

This system is too funny!

I LAUGH IN THE FACE OF DANGER! Elite Anaconda - Puhhh. Elite Cutter - MEH!.. Squadron of Corvettes against me? boooo! chicken feed.

NOTHING CAN STOP ME!!!!!!!!!!!




100cr fine:

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Oh here we have mr situational awareness. Yep most people are braindead and you are the smart one. In fact you are so smart, that you think the rest of us have a problem to avoid being caught up by the C&P system. Yep.. thats the main subject here, we have difficulty avoiding..

Who said anything about avoiding. If you put half of a brain cell into your play session then you can either engage in the new C&P system, or not, at your choosing. Like I said, all it takes is the slightest amount of knowledge.

If it's a fine, pay it in the jurisdiction.
Anything short of clean murder, know where your nearest IF is.
Clean murder, you gain notoriety and have to wait.

It really is that simple.

P.S. If you get caught out by having an FSD that's too small for what you need it to do, then I guess you learned a lesson, huh?

 

[askavir]

The C&P is not perfect, but it was a huge step in the right direction to having some kind of responsive game world where player actions have any sort of meaningful consequences. I wish much more stuff like this were to be added into the game, as one of my main gripes with the game is that it's world is beautiful, but stale (crimes had no meaning, we can rank up in feds and imps at the same time, we can act against a minor faction but they will still give you missions, I could be caught smuggling but would still be allowed to dock and sell the illegal goods etc, nothing ever matters, (nearly) nothing has consequence, the world almost never reacts to anything we do...

While it can indeed be improved upon, penalties for tiny crimes could be made easier, but even as it is is far, far better than being able to commit crimes and still be welcomed with open arms by the offended parties.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I'm so tired of all of this whining and crying.

If you play this game deliberately, pay attention to what you're doing where, and put a minimal amount of forethought and planning into your play, then you won't get caught up by the C&P system.

If you play like a braindead , then the new C&P will be a problem for you.

Unfortunately I'm afraid it's the braindead who will wind up winning this fight.

IMHO the New System isn't transparent nor easy to understand and especially inexperienced Players are simply very prone to get caught into its shortcomings.
And shortcomings or quirks there's still plenty.

A few of my personal highlights :
- difference between an accidental "Parking Ticket" (minor offense) and full-scale Crime (intentional assault etc.) is way too slim.
(criminal offenses spread between 50Cr fines all the way upto getting some 50M Bounty for a Murder, yet the dividing line currently ends at the bottom Pixel around ~200-400Cr and is purely digital in nature)

- galactic Amnesty and countless free Billions for Criminals at V3.0 release (Clean guys? Got nothing as usual, but thanks for being cooperative Targets)

- even most-wanted Terrorists can freely roam SuperCruise without even getting any hassle by System Authority

- ATF arrival timers are given to Criminals instead of the Clean Targets subject to unwarranted attacks

- System Authority still lacks the ATF-style aggression, numbers, required QRA-type (Quick Reaction Alert) nature & offensive tactics, and at least some Engineered teeth in order to make them an actual assistance instead of funny bystanders

- Hot Ships & Equipment? It's CMDRs committing Crimes, not Ships nor Equipment. Never made any sense and only creates a nice glaring loophole for career Criminals.
(if there was any coherent logic following that route, then the Ships would have to pay off Bounties or gain Notoriety - not CMDRs. Still wouldn't make any sense.)

- inherent Game bugs which can incur Bounties without CMDRs doing anything wrong or worthy of a Bounty

- Smuggling is still dirt easy and almost failsafe, risk is near zero even in big, slow Ships
(on top, there's nothing i.e. a BGS Player could do to close a Black Market regardless of Faction type or PowerPlay Influence, making them omnipresent with some Factions (sucks to be you) and unfairly perma-disabled for some others (free protection) )

PS.
IMHO there's nothing wrong with denying Wanted Criminals critical services.
And for all I know, i.e. a local Top 5 Wanted CMDR even daring to approach a Station within the jurisdiction should be subject to immediate attack. No docking at all. Combined with high Notoriety, just System entry should be a troubleful experience.

There just needs to be a very clean difference between minor Offenses and actual Crimes (i.e. Murder).
In the current state of things, I personally consider anything small that isn't a Murder a minor offense, an NPC Murder or a Smuggler getting scanned a major offense and an illegal PvP Kill a capital crime.
Punishments and Restrictions kicking in IMHO must reflect that. We're just not there right now.

 

[Enderby]

I'm not watching it if it's flawed.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

How do you solve the issue of it needing to be a bounty to give the defences the ability to (legally) fire at you?

Otherwise it would be "hey, get away from our top secret information or we'll ... we'll ... we'll fine you again! See how you like having a 1000 Credit fine!".


In the old system, it was (unless you really did a lot of trespass in a short time) a 10-minute bounty, so it got you shot at until you left the system (and largely only mattered until you left the instance, of course), and then automatically relaxed to a fine. Some way to do that sort of thing in the new system might be needed.

That always confused me. Why do I have to get a bounty and become wanted when I'm actively trespassing, so that station DEFENSE WEAPONRY can shoot me?

They don't need to get the okay from the law. They are DEFENSE TURRETS installed to prevent people from trespassing.

If you are on duty to guard a military installation, and somebody trespasses, you give him a warning, and if he doesn't react, you take measurements.
You don't call for your superior to inquire what the legal ground is.

 

[askavir]

Who said anything about avoiding. If you put half of a brain cell into your play session then you can either engage in the new C&P system, or not, at your choosing. Like I said, all it takes is the slightest amount of knowledge.

If it's a fine, pay it in the jurisdiction.
Anything short of clean murder, know where your nearest IF is.
Clean murder, you gain notoriety and have to wait.

It really is that simple.

... or hop into a clean ship if you really really need to dock at a place where you have a bounty...
...or use a dedicated "criminal" ship to do your nasty deeds and then stash it in an anarchy system, and simply never pay any bounty ever...

The main problem of C&P is that FD clearly overestimated it's average player's intelligence.

 

[Turbosnowy]

Sorry but feel I have to put my 2 pennies in here. When the new C&P landed I got hit twice with the ship flies across you at 0 metres whilst you are engaged corvette on anaconda in a haz rez.

Logical Version: - Holy sheet you are a dumb shoot for doing that and you should never have been given a pilots license, couldn't you see there was eccentric grades of weapon fire being exchanged from quite a long way off that if you decided to try to fly between it and if it hit you that would dissolve you in an instant? But no, apparently that was my fault.

So.. I then had to learn what I had to do to sort this out. Hrm I need to find an Interstellar Factor - googling.... ok somewhere in a lowsec system.. hrm where might that be.. long story short it was a ballache in a short hop combat ship - it left a sour taste in my mouth as I didn't consider it my fault and it seemed unnecessarily convoluted - if you want me to pay a fine or bounty let me pay it in the local station .

First time around it was extremely annoying as I had to do the google fu to work out what the hell I needed to do. Got it I thought. 2nd time around was almost as annoying as I understood it now, and was trying to be extra careful, but you know, nope, clipped some fella and, well sheet, need to remember where I had to go last time to go through this crap again for a 200 cr bounty or whatever.

it's unnecessary, silly and annoying and driving people to distraction. Sure if you kill tons of noobs or shoot other players then there needs to be something punitive in response (you know crime and all that, graded by seal clubbing being worst ever) but this seems excessive in hurting PVE carebears dealing with stray shots or suicidal NPCs.

Anyhoo, to counter my own argument I've been in a hazrez a few times since and had no issues so hey Go Me! But the overall issue I think remains and Obsidian Ant as usual has delivered a very thoughtful and balanced player view on it.

I think FD would be unwise not to pay attention if and when OA talked about a problem being a problem...

 

[Deleted member 115407]

... or hop into a clean ship if you really really need to dock at a place where you have a bounty...
...or use a dedicated "criminal" ship to do your nasty deeds and then stash it in an anarchy system, and simply never pay any bounty ever...

The main problem of C&P is that FD clearly overestimated it's average player's intelligence.

So much this. Repped.

 

[Maro-Val]

Who said anything about avoiding. If you put half of a brain cell into your play session then you can either engage in the new C&P system, or not, at your choosing. Like I said, all it takes is the slightest amount of knowledge.

If it's a fine, pay it in the jurisdiction.
Anything short of clean murder, know where your nearest IF is.
Clean murder, you gain notoriety and have to wait.

It really is that simple.

P.S. If you get caught out by having an FSD that's too small for what you need it to do, then I guess you learned a lesson, huh?

Indeed it begins to seem so simple omg.

Let me ask you something. Did you see someone saying that he doesn't understand how the system works? Maybe you should start using the other half.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I'm so tired of all of this whining and crying.

If you play this game deliberately, pay attention to what you're doing where, and put a minimal amount of forethought and planning into your play, then you won't get caught up by the C&P system.

If you play like a braindead , then the new C&P will be a problem for you.

Unfortunately I'm afraid it's the braindead who will wind up winning this fight.

Hear, hear. The Braindeads will ruin us all.

 

[John Xenir]

I don't understand why a known, wanted criminal can dock with a station belonging to faction he's in trouble with in the first place.

"Here, Mr. Smuggling Criminal, we know you behaved in the past but we'll let you dock and smuggle forbidden goods in anyway. Just don't expect any service at the fuel pump of cafeteria, but please be welcome to bring in 500 slaves as you please".

To me, if you're wanted with any faction owning a station, you shouldn't be able to dock with said faction's station at all. Period.
Have you been a bad boy in too many lawful systems yet? Too bad, your docking rights are pretty much with anarchy stations only.

IMHO, Elite is falling victim of its design decisions, and I'm not saying all of them were bad.
It's just the way it's been designed that's causing those issues so either some clever solution is needed, or a re-design.

Just imagine how much harder it would be to be unlawful without consequences if:
- stations opened fire at players with bad reputation, let alone allowed docking;
- jumping into populated system ended up right around the nav buoy, not around a sun, in normal space where you either had to sneak past authority's patrols, or engage in combat with them.

But there lies the problem - the jump-in mechanic would need reworking.

This is just an example, but you can easily find myriad of similar situations where it's the way Elite's been designed that's complicating everything.
I just wonder how many times does Frontier need to trip over their design decisions before they admit blowing giant fan at smoke doesn't address the true issue, which is the fire making it?

 

[mikekim]

How about just making this organic by allowing you to scan that point stealthily if you manage to pull it off? Yo can’t be wanted if you were never discovered to have been there in the fist place.

Issue with elite overall is that design is overly binary across the board instead of being organic.

Time for silent running mode for the srv...

Sneaky ninja into the base... Now there's a good gameplay addition

 

[akaliel]

P.S. If you get caught out by having an FSD that's too small for what you need it to do, then I guess you learned a lesson, huh?

My problem with this attitude is that this is a game. It's not real life where you were busted for speeding on an expired license. Someone bought this game and Frontier hopes that they'll like it enough to start paying for skins and future expansions. If you meet them with a poorly explained C&P system and address their problem with "Have you learned your lesson?" the only lesson they'll learn is that the game has a stupid system and irritating players, and they'll play something else. That's not how a game should treat it's users and a company should treat it's customers.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

How do you solve the issue of it needing to be a bounty to give the defences the ability to (legally) fire at you?

Otherwise it would be "hey, get away from our top secret information or we'll ... we'll ... we'll fine you again! See how you like having a 1000 Credit fine!".


In the old system, it was (unless you really did a lot of trespass in a short time) a 10-minute bounty, so it got you shot at until you left the system (and largely only mattered until you left the instance, of course), and then automatically relaxed to a fine. Some way to do that sort of thing in the new system might be needed.

Here's a thought - how about design a system that isn't trying to do everything, and thus fails at it almost across the board and instead design MULTIPLE systems that stand on their own?

FDev has been guilty multiple times of trying to alter an existing ingame system that was not exactly bulletproof to begin with, and then ramming that "square peg into the round hole" to make it serve a different function, instead of building a new system from the ground up.

The re-hashed engineering being the first case in point. This "new and improved C& P system" being the second glaring rebadge of an already p... poor system.

sure sure - time / money blah blah - not our problem, and FDev is not quite the "poor cousin" company it used to be if thier submissions to companies house are anything to go by.

When OA says it's bad, it's bad, because he's got a proven record for showing the positives in changes as well as the negatives.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Who said anything about avoiding. If you put half of a brain cell into your play session then you can either engage in the new C&P system, or not, at your choosing. Like I said, all it takes is the slightest amount of knowledge.

If it's a fine, pay it in the jurisdiction.
Anything short of clean murder, know where your nearest IF is.
Clean murder, you gain notoriety and have to wait.

It really is that simple.

P.S. If you get caught out by having an FSD that's too small for what you need it to do, then I guess you learned a lesson, huh?

You grossly overestimate the ability of our special community to cope with change.

When OA says it's bad, it's bad, because he's got a proven record for showing the positives in changes as well as the negatives.

Not sure if that was supposed to be a joke, but that is not how logic works...