Obsidian Ant NEW VIDEO - Crime and Punishment is Flawed

[Mole HD]

In all of this I keep thinking... Aren't rules dealing with direct consequences of ones actions supposed to be inconvenient?

What I'm seeing in general, judging by the majority of the comments I've read on this issue, is a new rule set besieged by players who obstinately refuse to alter their playing practises from the old system and being caught out...

That might be an over simplification...but it's my observation none the less.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I think that Eagleboy just doesn't like to hear anything bad said about his beloved ED. He seems to have a direct-line to the devs too.

To be frank, no one cares about me So no, I don't have direct line with devs. I think I understand their intentions sometimes - because most likely they are well described in streams or posts - but that's again, just my personal opinion.

As for bad....

I think C&P 3.0 is fine. It definitely needs lots of bug fixes and improvements. I have never been fan of lack of consequences of blasting someone away, being it player of npc. As for system not handling everything fully enough...I certainly want to see ATR route supercruise, and NPC system security having lightly engineered ships in high sec systems. And as for accidental fires...already said that it seems comes from lack of trigger practice. I personally DON'T KNOW what correct solution would be. Assault bounty is already just 200 credits and it is laughable, because assault can be anything taking you down to 1% of the hull.

Difficult problem with such complex games players really don't have full picture of what's going on in background. That's why everything feels slow. Or change doesn't come soon enough. Or 'friendly fire NPC' is just a 'cost of business'. But it isn't now anymore. And that's irks lot of players. But they attack system, not actual problem - like small NPCs boosting into you. Also I doubt many people know what friendly fire really means in ED - everything done to shields. But with many players flying with one shot weaponry (because why not) and suddenfly 'friendly fire' isn't that friendly in any sort of sense.

All those issues were issues before, but with new system they are put on spotlight.

How is that any better (or worse) than describing it as flawed?

Personally, I think "C&P isn't fit for purpose" wouldn't have been an overstated title.

There's huge gap between 'C&P needs improvements' and 'C&P is flawed, rewrite'. Not seeing it that way, sorry.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

In all of this I keep thinking... Aren't rules dealing with direct consequences of ones actions supposed to be inconvenient?

What I'm seeing in general, judging by the majority of the comments I've read on this issue, is a new rule set besieged by players who obstinately refuse to alter their playing practises from the old system and being caught out...

That might be an over simplification...but it's my observation none the less.

It was well-said. Well-said.

 

[rain_walker]

wow the cultists are strong today... to actually attack OA who promoted ED more then anyone else in this entire forum is insane. If you read the comments on his videos in the past 2 or 3 years u would have seen how many gamers bought ED purely due to his videos.

- If he sees issues it doesnt mean he is catering to his audience...

- If his audience agrees with him that doesnt mean they are all goons

- If half the forum is complaining it doesnt mean they are cry babies

It might... JUST MIGHT.. means that something is actually wrong with the game and NO it doesnt mean we want it to burn to the ground.. jeez this defensive stance is getting more and more obnoxious....

 

[Hedy]

Already told you before that I don't cater to audience, I just express my personal opinion.

Video title is to the point, but I'm more than happy to hear your suggestion for an alternative title (and I might even use it)!

I think you have always managed to strike a good balance between enthusiasm and structured criticism. This game in its current form needs critical guidance from its player base or risks pushing away those core fans which have been here for so long.
Keep up the good work.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

To be frank, no one cares about me So no, I don't have direct line with devs. I think I understand their intentions sometimes - because most likely they are well described in streams or posts - but that's again, just my personal opinion.

As for bad....

I think C&P 3.0 is fine. I have never been fan of lack of consequences of blasting someone away, being it player of npc. As for system not handling everything fully enough...I certainly want to see ATR route supercruise, and NPC system security having lightly engineered ships in high sec systems. And as for accidental fires...already said that it seems comes from lack of trigger practice. I personally DON'T KNOW what correct solution would be. Assault bounty is already just 200 credits and it is laughable, because assault can be anything taking you down to 1% of the hull.

Difficult problem with such complex games players really don't have full picture of what's going on in background. That's why everything feels slow. Or change doesn't come soon enough. Or 'friendly fire NPC' is just a 'cost of business'. But it isn't now anymore. And that's irks lot of players. But they attack system, not actual problem - like small NPCs boosting into you. Also I doubt many people know what friendly fire really means in ED - everything done to shields. But with many players flying with one shot weaponry (because why not) and suddenfly 'friendly fire' isn't that friendly in any sort of sense.

All those issues where issues before, but with new system they are put on spotlight.

There should totally be consequences for friendly fire - and 9 times out of 10 friendly fire is avoidable. Personally I have never had an issue with the friendly fire system, but I have seen enough people have trouble with it, to know that it needs reworking. It's a hard thing to balance because most solutions are open to abuse.

I do think there should be a distinction between NPCs and Players though, and that such a distinction would fix a lot of the problems we are seeing here. One example is to have a 3 strike rule for friendly fire against NPC's (there's room to abuse that in Wings of course, which is why it should be limited to NPCs only). First two strikes are fines, third strike is a very high bounty with death warrant. The game needs consequences, but it also needs to be sensible about how it deals with that.

(That said, friendly fire is only a part of the problem with the current C&P system).

There's huge gap between 'C&P needs improvements' and 'C&P is flawed, rewrite'. Not seeing it that way, sorry.

Well I didn't actually say "rewrite". C&P Needs Improvements because it is flawed. It's really not a strong word, at least over here in my region of the country it's a common word to describe problems that are fixable (whether they are a mess, or a minor issue). If I didn't feel it was fixable, I would have said "C&P is Broken!" or "C&P is Useless".

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

My 2c? I find this whole discussion about the new C&P an overreaction.

The issues being brought up, like players not having the option to turn themselves in and having to resort to getting blown up by police, or players becoming criminals by indirect action of NPCs, are flukes which slipped past FDEV's radar, considering that the new C&P system got almost completely redesigned. Yes, FDEV should fix them ASAP. But calling the entire new C&P flawed because of such edge cases feels a bit much.

I mean... we lived with suicidewinders for years. When was the outcry then? This game has bigger problems than this player going for an undersized FSD or that player failing to exercise trigger discipline.

I have to agree with everything you've said here. I would also add that I think a lot of players that don't frequent the forums or watch the ED produced videos were caught off guard by the changes, which were significant. Some players were used to doing things a certain way and then suddenly they found themselves with bounties, hot ships and notoriety. Add to this the bugs that made the C&P system not work properly for some.

FDev might have considered easing into these changes a bit at a time and making sure that players knew when they logged in what to expect.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

I have to agree with everything you've said here. I would also add that I think a lot of players that don't frequent the forums or watch the ED produced videos were caught off guard by the changes, which were significant. Some players were used to doing things a certain way and then suddenly they found themselves with bounties, hot ships and notoriety. Add to this the bugs that made the C&P system not work properly for some.

FDev might have considered easing into these changes a bit at a time and making sure that players knew when they logged in what to expect.

This though, really highlights the lack of in-game information. The results of Crime and Punishment shouldn't be discovered by trial and error.

 

[Manticore]

Just want to clear this up before it goes any further. I'm still very much in love with Elite Dangerous - it's right in the top of my best games of all time. I also have a lot of faith in the future of Elite, although I perhaps don't express that quite as often as I once used to. But even this month alone I have released at least 6+ videos that are positive in nature, and one in particular that highlights some of the best (in my opinion) elements of the game.

I suspect that these critical videos stand out a bit more, because they are precisely that. They are critical.

Regarding the other issues for various content creators, I do understand how they feel, Cmdr Plater and DTEA raise some important issues that affect them directly. However, that said, I don't feel any frustration towards the game or Frontier.

When I make a video like this, it's because I'm calling it like I see it, whilst trying to put a balanced view point across. I never assume that I'm in the right, and I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me. And more importantly I don't make these videos simply because I'm "following a trend" or "following the crowd". These are my views, and my thoughts. If I feel there's a problem with the game, I'm not going to be in denial about that.

For those that don't watch the videos - or don't like them, that is totally fine. It's your call.

Always appreciate everyone's feedback. And it always means so much to me that people enjoy my videos and continue to watch them.

Your opinion(s) are appreciated and I respect them as considered and fairly stated opinions. And that's what they are; opinions.

Unfortunately these boards have become so toxic that, at the first hint of negativity from you, attribution error arises and the forum's toxic and negative whiners pick up on them as the death of the game.

I'm so tired of all of this whining and crying.

If you play this game deliberately, pay attention to what you're doing where, and put a minimal amount of forethought and planning into your play, then you won't get caught up by the C&P system.

If you play like a braindead , then the new C&P will be a problem for you.

Unfortunately I'm afraid it's the braindead who will wind up winning this fight.

Emphasis added by me. This is exactly the problem with some other players. The emphasised section illustrates why people don't succeed at enjoying this game.

Basically this has always been the only way to succeed in this game; foresight and planning.

Instant gratification has never been part of this game's mechanics and the braindead and toxic demographic just don't get that.

Well said.

 

[Spacemanz]

To be honest, I just really can't be bothered to watch his videos anymore.

 

[Stealthie]

So, here's a wacky thought....

From an in-universe POV, presumably somebody must know you've committed a crime or you wouldn't actually be accused of a crime, right?

That being the case, why not just have a cop ship show up and TELL you what's going on, and what you can do about it?

Ideally, for petty crimes, it'd be nice if a cop ship could just show up and give you the opportunity to pay a fine on the spot.

For more serious stuff, the cop ship might interdict you, scan you and then you'd get a message saying something like "You have outstanding fines in this system and will be refused docking privileges. You need to find a suitable Factor in another system and clear your debt before you can land here".

For the most serious stuff, you'd get a message saying something like "We don't want criminal scum like you in this system" and then you'd get a face full of lasers.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Emphasis added by me. This is exactly the problem with some other players. The emphasised section illustrates why people don't succeed at enjoying this game.

Basically this has always been the only way to succeed in this game; foresight and planning.

Instant gratification has never been part of this game's mechanics and the braindead and toxic demographic just don't get that.

Well said.

Well, calling players braindead won't give you any sympathy votes I can assure you. Let's stop with name calling.

That being said...yes, complains and nature of feedback I see from that part of player base indicates wishes a bit more of 'arcade' approach, with more relaxed rule of the law, faster progression, faster getting stuff...they don't see game as it was originally intended. They see it as their own picture. And some of those issues come from FD own fault - delaying AI, delaying proper C&P. That allowed to harbour let's say unhealthy practices when approaching game.

You don't need to follow strict law book in GTAV. You have to in ED. Obviously player used to first will suffer in ED. But that's really not the news here.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Beige Squadron attacking Obsidian Ant?

Unthinkable!

 

[Stealthie]

Beige Squadron attacking Obsidian Ant?

Unthinkable!

Look on the bright side.

If he gets sufficiently cheesed-off, you'll be up for a massive "I told you so!!!!" moment.

 

[Quantis Trap]

This though, really highlights the lack of in-game information. The results of Crime and Punishment shouldn't be discovered by trial and error.

I think the three strikes warnings idea you mentioned might be a good time to teach players who don't yet know the friendly fire rules and "trigger discipline". It's also good to have several warnings the learning of the trigger discipline and situational awareness take a bit of time.

I'm just not sure how the three strikes thing might would work though. Would the three strikes only apply to friendly fire on NPCs? I'm afraid it could be an exploited if it was for acts against commanders too. On the other hand, if it wasn't on commanders also it might have the effect of cheapening NPC life as compared to commander lives.

 

[Old Duck]

They really need to make everything a fine, except for murder or aggravated assault (meaning significant damage done, not stray fire).
This way all these piddly offenses can be paid off locally.
Bounties for things like trespassing is just silly.

What fairytale land is this that you speak of? Where I live, the postoffice is wallpapered with "WANTED: DEAD OR ALIVE" posters for everything from jaywalking to not keeping the parking meter full. I just stay inside, it's safer that way.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

What fairytale land is this that you speak of? Where I live, the postoffice is wallpapered with "WANTED: DEAD OR ALIVE" posters for everything from jaywalking to not keeping the parking meter full. I just stay inside, it's safer that way.

Where I live, you just get shot, and you are lucky if they pick up the body.

 

[Luniticisi]

Couldn't care less about anything O.A has to say about Elite.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I will reiterate where I think the next set of C&P improvements need to be made.

Fines: These should always be immediately payable, either via Anonymous Protocols, or at an Interstellar Factors (for a 25% Mark-up). However, like Interstellar Bounties, I believe that if you accrue a sufficiently large number of fines with a single Super-Power, then they should be converted into a Bounty instead.

Bounties: Need to be increased across the board. Bounties earned in Hi-Sec systems should be double what they are in Medium Security Systems, but half normal in Lo-Sec systems. Repeat Offence should result in a bounty either 50% or 100% greater than the First Offence. Third offence 50% or 100% greater than Second Offence.....& so on. Interstellar Bounties should be non-cleanable, & regular Bounties should have a 25% Fee for cleaning via Interstellar Factors.

EDIT: They also need to break up Assault into Minor Assault & Major Assault-to create greater differentiation between the various crimes.

Notoriety: This should *never* decay. You should either have to 'Work it Off' (either by doing 'Charitable Work' (jobs where you forego any reward for yourself), or by doing 'Dirty Work' for Interstellar Factors) or lose it by being "Brought to Book". However, Notoriety needs to be more visible in your Comms Panel(s), and needs to be overhauled so that Criminal Players *want* to keep it. Notoriety Locks on Certain Missions, higher payouts for Criminal Missions-based on your Notoriety, better Black Market Payouts, being avoided by Criminal NPC's, being able to 'menace' NPC's into giving up their loot to you.

General: Criminal Acts against a Faction need to carry much harsher, long lasting Reputation costs with that Faction-especially Capital Crimes, which should drop you a whole Reputation Level (Allied down to Friendly, for instance). Likewise, committing crimes against a specific Super Power should make it much harder to gain Military Rank with that Super-Power's Navy.

If all of the above were implemented, I'd be happier than a pig in mud!

 

[Old Duck]

Couldn't care less about anything O.A has to say about Elite.

Yet here you are posting in the thread about he had to say...

Don't worry OA, I still love you [heart] [heart] [heart]