3.0 Crime rules leads to marooning

The root cause is not FSD selection, the root cause is Friendly Fire and it’s current state of being a bountiable offence.

If FDev can redefine Friendly Fire to be a finable offence, but have maybe a ceiling of 5 friendly Fires becomes “Reckless Endangerment” and has a bounty instead, that gives players 5 do-overs If FF occurs, but a really determined CMDR can still get a bounty if they repeatedly do the same silly thing.

Benefit, it allows CMDRs new and old to suffer the vagaries of NPC’s dive bombing into their field of fire, or handle NPC fighters to be a bit too eager on the trigger and the player not be penalised if they fairly promptly resolve it. 5 counts and your out is a reasonably high enough to sort the wheat from the chaff on the matter.

I also believe a tutorial should be created so players can incur a fine and pay it off, and then incur a bounty and be directed to a nearest IFF to pay that off.

More importantly an in game journal/help file to explain things would also help players.
 
How is there a difference between a pew pewer coming a cropper because of deliberate use of undersized fsd to min/max weapon load out..... and a trader not using a shield to min/max cargo load out. Yet traders have been mocked and ridiculed since the start for doing this. How is it different now, that, pew pew encounters a similar (if not same) min/max quandary?

(just asking) ;)
 
How is there a difference between a pew pewer coming a cropper because of deliberate use of undersized fsd to min/max weapon load out..... and a trader not using a shield to min/max cargo load out. Yet traders have been mocked and ridiculed since the start for doing this. How is it different now, that, pew pew encounters a similar (if not same) min/max quandary?

(just asking) ;)
Both setups work, both have pros and cons. The trader may come in a situation, where he is highly likely to face a rebuy screen. The combat pilot under this (and similar (!)) circumstances has to face the rebuy screen 100% of the time (if he wants to continue play the game and "progress"). The fail condition was suicide or be stuck forever.
 
When the game creates scenarios where the only option to resolve a bounty that originally started with a 400 cr fine, is by seeking assisted suicide, then no I don't think you get where I am coming from and yes maybe this is a bit much. Yes the commander had an insufficient FSD for the system, however:

a) this is permitted by the game and is not a specific issue ordinarily
b) there are no warnings when transferring ships with insufficient FSD potential to leave the system
c) mechanics previously permitted suitable modules (or another ship) to be transferred in, obviating the issue entirely
d) there is artificial scarcity of modules at a great many stations

This has nothing to do with hand-holding, m8. It's Frontier not considering the consequences of simply denying access to mechanics that are based on a set of prior assumptions, without changing those assumptions. An edge case issue caused by Sandy turning crap off, and not immediately recognising that people could quite trivially be locked as a consequence. Before this, we had the people running low on fuel being stuck and unable to action the required mechanics to resolve the bounty.

We don't need C&P to be an inconsistent, complicated, locking outcome because people confuse that with "difficulty". There are a ton of very constructive ways the game can present challenges, and not hold your hand in the process. Trapping absent minded commanders in systems because mechanics are not keeping pace with changes, is not one of them. There are major changes shipping in minor updates; it's not a good look.

When you remove all choice from a commander, I draw the line. As should anyone. The consequences for the crime are sufficient and barbaric enough as it is, and have otherwise been actually considered a positive move. This locking commanders in systems business, is no such thing.

I am quite satisfied this is on Sandy's radar; it should be.

To be perfectly honest, we're not that far off being on the same page. I would agree some tweaking is possible and might be in order and like you, I'm sure it is on Sandy's radar.

Now, where I suspect you will not agree with me is that I don't think the possibility of stranding a ship by transferring it to a system it can't jump out of it and then getting it "hot" should be removed. Bear with me while I explain, maybe we'll discover more common ground than I think.

Whether or not a ship has the capability to leave a system under its own power should be a consideration when deciding to transfer it there. It should be something a pilot bears in mind when they contemplate skimping on FSD to squeeze out a few extra m/s or save a few watts of power. However, the situation of being stranded with no option at all but to seek out a cop and actively pursue a rebuy screen could maybe be slightly mitigated. And it seems to me that by unlocking the shipyard alone under anon access enough mitigation would be in place. Lore for that would make sense, the ship you arrived in is "hot" but you aren't. Once you're off that hot ship you can walk into the shipyard office and make deals involving other ships, you just can't take the hot ship into any of the outfitting bays.

With this change you can retrieve a stored ship or have one freighted in, even buy yourself a new one and thus, once you're in a different ship you're out from under anon access and can turn in your bounty vouchers or combat bonds, claim mission rewards etc. You can leave. Only the hot ship is "stuck" there, because you can't ship it out without it getting impounded, but you aren't. You can continue to use it locally, albeit with "wanted" status and the hassle that comes with that, even to fly missions (which don't involve cargo cans, because you have to accept and turn in the mission from the cockpit of a different ship) or whatever else you want, you just can't get it out of there without answering for the crime.

Now, a player may choose to go get themselves blown up by a cop rather than continue this way, but that way they at least have a choice, they aren't locked in to a course of action, which I understand to be your biggest objection to the current state. However, the need for forethought has not been entirely eliminated, because by shipping in a vessel which can't leave under its own power they are still putting that asset at risk, but ONLY that asset. If the pilot chooses to continue their gameplay in another ship, they can. If they have enough credits (and either the patience to re-engineer or enough stored modules in hand) they can recreate that build as a clean ship and just write off the stuck one. Or, later in their game, they may decide they simply must have that ship out from under its lockdown, fly back there and THEN go get it blown up to clear its bounty.

We avoid nerfing the consequence of that lack of forethought entirely, yet we do not give the player the frustration of forcing them to deliberately go out and seek a losing engagement - they do have other, albeit expensive, options.

Would that satisfy your concerns? It certainly would mine and would be a "fix" I could get behind.
 
Both setups work, both have pros and cons. The trader may come in a situation, where he is highly likely to face a rebuy screen. The combat pilot under this (and similar (!)) circumstances has to face the rebuy screen 100% of the time (if he wants to continue play the game and "progress"). The fail condition was suicide or be stuck forever.

but as a trader myself I have been:

Smashed to bits leaving the letterbox
Pulled apart after submitting to interdiction before fsd has re-spooled
Smashed to bits in a gang-stomp
Pulled apart by even NPC bandits

Each time 100% loss. If I ever complained, the first thing I'm told is that it's completely my fault for flying shield-less. Had I been flying with shields, probably all apart from the letterbox gank I'd have escaped.
If all someone has to do to prevent total loss is to get a larger FSD.. then that goes from 100% loss to... 0% loss it sounds like a no brainer tradeoff.

I'm just a passer-by to this conversation, curiosity got the better of me ;)
 
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How is there a difference between a pew pewer coming a cropper because of deliberate use of undersized fsd to min/max weapon load out..... and a trader not using a shield to min/max cargo load out. Yet traders have been mocked and ridiculed since the start for doing this. How is it different now, that, pew pew encounters a similar (if not same) min/max quandary?

(just asking) ;)

Because in one, death isn't a guaranteed outcome; in one if you get shot at a bit, you could self-determine a solution by waking out, or changing outfitting at the next station.

In the other, there are no choices. The OP has already been ridiculed as it is, to be fair. But the situation of how they got to that point, is more of the concern; the game wedges the outcome. It's the game wedging, that isn't good.

The choice to fit a too small, or no shield does not prevent escape from unexpected combat situation; that's a risk reward choice. And at any time, the commander can choose to change that. There is no station lock out preventing contextually relevant changes.

The OP had no such luxury the moment a bounty is received. Regardless of reason. It's an automatic foregone conclusion. They can't change the FSD. Can't leave. Very few people enjoy those forced outcomes.

I agree the OP was a bit silly; but this is an edge case where people become completely stuck, and the getting wedged because Sandy turned some stuff off, hadn't helped.
 
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Because in one, death isn't a guaranteed outcome; in one if you get shot at a bit, you could self-determine a solution by waking out, or changing outfitting at the next station.

In the other, there are no choices. The OP has already been ridiculed as it is, to be fair. But the situation of how they got to that point, is more of the concern; the game wedges the outcome. It's the game wedging, that isn't good.

The choice to fit a too small, or no shield does not prevent escape from unexpected combat situation; that's a risk reward choice. And at any time, the commander can choose to change that.

The OP had no such luxury. It's an automatic foregone conclusion. Very few people enjoy those.

What's the biggest loss a combat pilot is likely to face though by 'learning' from this? few mil cr?

My biggest 'don't fly unshielded' loss was 88,000,000 cr.

The only contingency needed is an escape if things go pete tong, at the station, go to galaxy map set exit route; if it errors due to no possible route, one just needs to upgrade fsd.

I'd take this learning experience over another 792t cutter + cargo loss any day.



Yay coffee just arrived (just have to love mind reading colleagues) lol... A lovely combo, ED forum + Starbucks.. my day is made!
 
Ultimately, if the developer expects people to leave the system to pay off their bounties, then throwing up a bunch of hurdles that can prevent this, probably isn't constructive.

Ship transport, and what services are actually turned off, probably needs a bit more consideration than "it's causing issues for the development team so they've been turned off" to be fair.

And like any major change, there will be edge cases that should be reviewed to ensure the game is challenging, without crossing over into "random lock out reason" bingo.

This is just Frontier making some dramatic changes in live, again, and not being across all the possible outcomes.

Let's try to not lot lose sight of the bigger picture. These types of game wedging issues should be very few and far between.

What's the biggest loss a combat pilot is likely to face though by 'learning' from this? few mil cr?

My biggest 'don't fly unshielded' loss was 88,000,000 cr.

The only contingency needed is an escape if things go pete tong, at the station, go to galaxy map set exit route; if it errors due to no possible route, one just needs to upgrade fsd.

I'd take this learning experience over another 792t cutter + cargo loss any day.



Yay coffee just arrived (just have to love mind reading colleagues) lol... A lovely combo, ED forum + Starbucks.. my day is made!

I wasn't aware this was the thread to discuss personal grievances about outcomes. Sorry for your loss, but my focus isn't really on how people have lost money recently, so much as the game removing all choice from a player.

Enjoy your coffee. Starbucks? Please. Just no.
 
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What's the biggest loss a combat pilot is likely to face though by 'learning' from this? few mil cr?

Roughly 70 million credits if it happens in a fully combat fitted cutter. Throw in an elite ranked NPC crew which would be lost.

But inhowfar is this relevant?
 
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Ultimately, if the developer expects people to leave the system to pay off their bounties, then throwing up a bunch of hurdles that can prevent this, probably isn't constructive.

Ship transport, and what services are actually turned off, probably needs a bit more consideration than "it's causing issues for the development team so they've been turned off" to be fair.

And like any major change, there will be edge cases that should be reviewed to ensure the game is challenging, without crossing over into "random lock out reason" bingo.

This is just Frontier making some dramatic changes in live, again, and not being across all the possible outcomes.

Let's try to not lot lose sight of the bigger picture. These types of game wedging issues should be very few and far between.



I wasn't aware this was the thread to discuss personal grievances about outcomes. Sorry for your loss, but my focus isn't really on how people have lost money recently, so much as the game removing all choice from a player.

The problem with a big-world game like ED is that there are so many different permutations/scenarios that can act on something like C&P that I personally don't think it's reasonable to expect FD to be able to catch them all in a Beta period. IMO we just have to accept that problems like this will occur but we also have a right to expect that they will be sensibly resolved.
 
Just a quick question and if I am wrong, I do apologise (yep getting old, the memory is going lol)...

Under the pre-Beyond C&P system, wasn't there a requirement to jump out of a system if you got a fine, then jump back in to pay the damn thing? I am sure that was the way for certain fines, cos I remember having to do it once or thrice and feeling it was a stupid idea.

If I am right, how did all those that had modified, no-jump uber modified ships manage, I would guess they swapped ships or something.
 
The problem with a big-world game like ED is that there are so many different permutations/scenarios that can act on something like C&P that I personally don't think it's reasonable to expect FD to be able to catch them all in a Beta period. IMO we just have to accept that problems like this will occur but we also have a right to expect that they will be sensibly resolved.

Yep. There are arguments to be made against packaging major changes in minor updates, but this is quite true. There's been a bit of a habit of turning off problematic functions however, and this has, finally, caught up with the developer though.

Rough road ahead, either way.
 
Just a quick question and if I am wrong, I do apologise (yep getting old, the memory is going lol)...

Under the pre-Beyond C&P system, wasn't there a requirement to jump out of a system if you got a fine, then jump back in to pay the damn thing? I am sure that was the way for certain fines, cos I remember having to do it once or thrice and feeling it was a stupid idea.

If I am right, how did all those that had modified, no-jump uber modified ships manage, I would guess they swapped ships or something.

"I guess they swapped ships or something." - yep, swap ship or module and go do the required penitence time next door.

Can't now though. Ahh well. ;)
 
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"I guess they swapped ships or something." - yep, swap ship or module and go do the required penitence time next door.

Can't now though. Ahh well. ;)

This. Before 3.0 players have not been locked out of outfitting (or any other starport service for that matter) for having a bounty on their heads.

So one could say it has been common knowledge that there would a requirement to have the ability to jump out of a system if the player incurred a fine. And it has been widely disseminated that if a player find themselves with a bounty they will be locked out of all station services.

Hmmm, interesting ;)
 
+rep for this! Whether we find agreement on anything else or not, how anyone can like a coffee that is so badly roasted that even their lightest roasts taste burnt is quite beyond me.

lol it's still a staple!

...regardless if they pay tax or not :eek:
 
I wasn't aware this was the thread to discuss personal grievances about outcomes. Sorry for your loss, but my focus isn't really on how people have lost money recently, so much as the game removing all choice from a player.

The choice is one the player makes by deciding to put a pair of size 6 shoes on size 10 feet, and wondering why they aren't winning the 100m sprint.

Chucking on a deliberately undersized FSD is a conscience, and personal choice. The results are no surprise an inadequately equipped ship should the need arise to make system jumps.

I still see it as a conscience decision to use an inadequately fit ship to min/max stats.

Why would people undersize FSDs anyway? Not sure I get it.
 
So one could say it has been common knowledge that there would a requirement to have the ability to jump out of a system if the player incurred a fine. And it has been widely disseminated that if a player find themselves with a bounty they will be locked out of all station services.

Hmmm, interesting ;)

Actually this only became a problem because the developer turned stuff off because of prior mechanics issues that were annoying the developer. If you never read the release notes for that one change? You wouldn't know.

Keep beating that horse though, if it helps. Maybe use the thinking emote too? :rolleyes:
 
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