Obsidian Ant NEW VIDEO - Crime and Punishment is Flawed

Deleted member 115407

D
First off, the weapons were upgraded and shipped in. Engineered Weaps, dude. I'll post the log if it helps you to understand - but trust me, they're the same timestamp. Less than a second, dude.
Why not let the cops kill me? Sheesh. I dunno. Maybe survival instinct - and the fact that it's just plain wrong.
Lastly - backup plan? For running data missions 8.9 light years away? C'mon, give me a break. This is supposed to be a game.

Still, Class 1 weapons?

And you scoff at having a backup plan, but without one you wound up getting stuck.

Also, I don't understand why a player had to shoot you? If you were wanted in jurisdiction X, why couldn't you just fly to a station in jurisdiction X, take a shot at a cop, and let the station sort it out for you? You would have been insta-transfered to detention.

Also, did you consider economic jumps? Jumponium?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
To me the difference is that insurance & flying without a rebuy is a well known consequence and has been drilled over and over and over ad nauseum into people's skulls from the instant they start out in a Sidewinder in Erevate, whereas having some new mechanic sprung on them with pretty stealthy consequences for doing something that has been acceptable since the game launched is overly punitive. I highly doubt if Fdev intended people lose their ships, or became stranded, so it's a moot point in my view; it'll get fixed at some point. If the system still works this way a year from now and people are still running afoul of it, then I may be willing to reconsider.

Tradition is never a convincing argument to me, it's too arbitrary, rigid, and doesn't allow for needed changes. Either a mechanic makes intrinsic logical sense or it doesn't. Change by itself isn't bad, but by the standard you propose, all significant change with consequences would be bad change (at least initially).

So instead, think about it intrinsically: If you had never played the game before, and you shot a cop and the game said, "hey dude, congrats you're wanted now!" Then you surely wouldn't be surprised by this. But since players have been getting away with violently reckless and lawless antisocial behavior for years, we now have a warped expectation that you can just bribe officials in a high security system and be on your merry way. Or just ignore fines altogether! No other game allows you to run rough shod over the law like we do in Elite, and now the game has adopted a more universal standard of logical consequences, people are crying foul.

That's just your prejudice against combat pilots talking. Somebody losing their ship over a 200 credit accidental fire accident is overly harsh IMO, and certainly not funny.

The only people losing their ship are veterans who were min-maxing their power/weight/speed ratios (ie people who should have known better), and new players who don't have that warped expectation that veterans have, and are losing maybe a few hours of progress at most (ie essentially nothing significant in the long run).
 
Tradition is never a convincing argument to me, it's too arbitrary, rigid, and doesn't allow for needed changes. Either a mechanic makes intrinsic logical sense or it doesn't. Change by itself isn't bad, but by the standard you propose, all significant change with consequences would be bad change (at least initially).

So instead, think about it intrinsically: If you had never played the game before, and you shot a cop and the game said, "hey dude, congrats you're wanted now!" Then you surely wouldn't be surprised by this. But since players have been getting away with violently reckless and lawless antisocial behavior for years, we now have a warped expectation that you can just bribe officials in a high security system and be on your merry way. Or just ignore fines altogether! No other game allows you to run rough shod over the law like we do in Elite, and now the game has adopted a more universal standard of logical consequences, people are crying foul.



The only people losing their ship are veterans who were min-maxing their power/weight/speed ratios (ie people who should have known better), and new players who don't have that warped expectation that veterans have, and are losing maybe a few hours of progress at most (ie essentially nothing significant in the long run).

Well, I'm not going to back a philosophy that's just going to lead to players quitting the game for good, because if you put a fully engineered ship behind a grindwall of that magnitude and then take it away on a petty infraction that's what's going to happen; the game is guaranteed going in the bin and that player is going to have nothing left but hate for the game, the devs and the proponents of the system. Personally, I want to see ED thrive.

I don't get why you guys have such a hard-on to punish people so harshly. Personally, the grind to get a fully engineered ship in the first place seems like punishment enough:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Well, I'm not going to back a philosophy that's just going to lead to players quitting the game for good, because if you put a fully engineered ship behind a grindwall of that magnitude and then take it away on a petty infraction that's what's going to happen; the game is guaranteed going in the bin and that player is going to have nothing left but hate for the game, the devs and the proponents of the system. Personally, I want to see ED thrive.

I don't get why you guys have such a hard-on to punish people so harshly. Personally, the grind to get a fully engineered ship in the first place seems like punishment enough:rolleyes:

1) Anyone with a grandfathered fully engineered ship should know better than to slot a 7LY jump range FSD. This was my first thought when I heard about respawning at an IF in the live stream

2) Grindwall is a myth. It's so easy to fully engineer in 3.0, I can fully top one out in an hour or two just from spare mats and pinned recipes.

3) If people quit a game because they don't understand points 1 and 2, and insist that their level of incompetence should determine the top difficulty of the game, then the game is better off without them. Otherwise the game can be better off without people like me who enjoy a game where behavior must take into account consequences, even minor ones like #1 and #2.
 
1) Anyone with a grandfathered fully engineered ship should know better than to slot a 7LY jump range FSD. This was my first thought when I heard about respawning at an IF in the live stream

2) Grindwall is a myth. It's so easy to fully engineer in 3.0, I can fully top one out in an hour or two just from spare mats and pinned recipes.

3) If people quit a game because they don't understand points 1 and 2, and insist that their level of incompetence should determine the top difficulty of the game, then the game is better off without them. Otherwise the game can be better off without people like me who enjoy a game where behavior must take into account consequences, even minor ones like #1 and #2.

Good for you, Ziljan. I will carefully consider your opinion.
 
The old C&P system was a lot more complex you needed a flow chart to understand it.....apart from the bit that there was no consequences so who needed the flow chart anyway.
 
Good for you, Ziljan. I will carefully consider your opinion.

Normally you take a tack that tries to elevate the level of playing in the game via education and encouragement to be better, and not degrade the the design philosophy of Elite still further into some lowest common denominator. So I have to say I am surprised that you are arguing for the other side of history on this one. I mean, we know Frontier is going to nerf the snot out of C&P no matter what is said here, just because there is a wave of (misinformed as usual) sentiment, and Frontier never does anything in half measures. And a couple weeks after the "fix" I bet I we will see some of the same people complaining on the other about the game's C&P is now a toothless joke.
 
Normally you take a tack that tries to elevate the level of playing in the game via education and encouragement to be better, and not degrade the the design philosophy of Elite still further into some lowest common denominator. So I have to say I am surprised that you are arguing for the other side of history on this one. I mean, we know Frontier is going to nerf the snot out of C&P no matter what is said here, just because there is a wave of (misinformed as usual) sentiment, and Frontier never does anything in half measures. And a couple weeks after the "fix" I bet I we will see some of the same people complaining on the other about the game's C&P is now a toothless joke.

Generally speaking I don't mind meting out tough punishments, I just have a problem with being so cavalier regarding players losing ships they've worked on for god knows how many hours. I've condoned ingame murder and mayhem, too, for that matter, but always with an eye towards people putting things into perspective and having "fun." Perhaps I will come around to your side of the fence after some reflection. It's not PvPers as these players already have the system wired, it's PvErs who haven't figured it out who are being caught out in these predicaments, and I'm just inclined to be a little more forgiving. I have a pretty tender heart, and that's something many people don't know about me.
 
And a couple weeks after the "fix" I bet I we will see some of the same people complaining on the other about the game's C&P is now a toothless joke.
.
I wouldn't wagger even a single cent against you. I think i can even already say several names who'll do that.
.
 
dont get why people complain about the potential consequences for their insistence on fitting a crappy small fsd.

its a choice. you make it, live with the consequences.

its the kind of decision which makes it more interesting not less.

This is hilarious.

I'm going to start ganking explorers and traders just to say it's their choice not to fit a fully combat modded rig.

Live with the consequences... oh wait, I can't combat log to solo to fix this.
 
Last edited:
Generally speaking I don't mind meting out tough punishments, I just have a problem with being so cavalier regarding players losing ships they've worked on for god knows how many hours. I've condoned ingame murder and mayhem, too, for that matter, but always with an eye towards people putting things into perspective and having "fun." Perhaps I will come around to your side of the fence after some reflection. It's not PvPers as these players already have the system wired, it's PvErs who haven't figured it out who are being caught out in these predicaments, and I'm just inclined to be a little more forgiving. I have a pretty tender heart, and that's something many people don't know about me.

Primarily a PvE player speaking here...

Gotta disagree with you on this point.

Believe it or not I have a pretty rabidly fitted out Vulture, mostly grandfathered engineering. But it's pretty savage nonetheless - including an undersized FSD to compensate for the extra weight added from heavy duty shield boosters, engineered armour and all the rest. It's a LOT of fun to fly - literally a blast. B)

But it looks like I'll be refitting it with the new C&P in mind - and woe betide folks who insist on fitting undersized FSD's on their own deathmachines. From now on, deliberately choosing to fly with an undersized FSD to save weight on their combat ships, is entirely their own decision - most folks should know by now how the new C&P mechanics work. If they don't? Well IMO they really should be looking at patch notes published here and elsewhere.

This is hilarious.

I'm going to start ganking explorers and traders just to say it's their choice not to fit a fully combat modded rig.

Live with the consequences... oh wait, I can't combat log to solo to fix this.


>>>>>>>>>>> the point >>>>>>>

>>>you<<<
 
.
I wouldn't wagger even a single cent against you. I think i can even already say several names who'll do that.
.

One of them begins with an "O" ;)

Generally speaking I don't mind meting out tough punishments, I just have a problem with being so cavalier regarding players losing ships they've worked on for god knows how many hours. I've condoned ingame murder and mayhem, too, for that matter, but always with an eye towards people putting things into perspective and having "fun." Perhaps I will come around to your side of the fence after some reflection. It's not PvPers as these players already have the system wired, it's PvErs who haven't figured it out who are being caught out in these predicaments, and I'm just inclined to be a little more forgiving. I have a pretty tender heart, and that's something many people don't know about me.

I think the ships in the game are generally treated as being far too precious. Would greatly prefer it if they were viewed more as temporary signs of success rather than sacred cows. That's actually one of the consequential things I enjoy about this C&P system, it really encourage people to choose their ships according to the risk of their task. For instance, I see a lot more people flying unengineered Viper 4s now because they are a cheap ship that can do a lot of things in PVE, and are relatively very low risk. This provides a new niche role for small yet effective builds. If suddenly, the PVE risk was gone, we'd see people taking on cops in their godmobiles again in the blink of an eye, and outfitting would be back down to a tiny handful of the available ships.

You could get a similar consequential effect by ramping repair costs way back up (eg by increasing ways to receive module damage). Frontier tried doing this many times already, and were met with stiff resistance each time.

It's pretty frustrating tbh how little consequences there are in this game. If you never get penalized for doing something dumb, how can owning a big heavily engineered ship mean anything, besides that you played long enough to get your participation trophy? If it can't ever be lost, for any reason and people's wealth is only ever going up, then I'm sorry but that big ol Cutter might as well be a tee-ball trophy.
 
I posted this on Mr. Ant's video, but I'll post it here again. Maybe I'm wrong in this, but I do think this is easily solved by replacing Elite's rather binary logic with some fuzzier stuff. A 200cr bounty shouldn't incur ANY response from the game. An accumulated bounty to 1000 should, perhaps, incur anonymous access protocols, but not, necessarily, being chased by the cops or blown up by the station. A 10k bounty should get you chased by the police and a 100k bounty should bring down a station's wrath. And, maybe, higher bounties should bring in the ATR.

It would certainly eliminate the issue Obsidian -- may I call you "Obsidian"? ;) -- raised regarding his friend. I've had similar situations happen to me, friendly fire and now, suddenly, I can't do anything at a station. Accidently getting stuck in the mailslot -- for the first time ever, I might add -- and getting locked out for a low level fine. I even had a situation where I accidently switched to a fighter after defeating a pirate. My hired crew then started firing on the very people we were defending. I got the hell out of there but guess what? Low level bounty and me locked out of services.

It's a bit silly and easily solved if Elite actually started using a little fuzzy logic.
 
Last edited:
Primarily a PvE player speaking here...

Gotta disagree with you on this point.

Believe it or not I have a pretty rabidly fitted out Vulture, mostly grandfathered engineering. But it's pretty savage nonetheless - including an undersized FSD to compensate for the extra weight added from heavy duty shield boosters, engineered armour and all the rest. It's a LOT of fun to fly - literally a blast. B)

But it looks like I'll be refitting it with the new C&P in mind - and woe betide folks who insist on fitting undersized FSD's on their own deathmachines. From now on, deliberately choosing to fly with an undersized FSD to save weight on their combat ships, is entirely their own decision - most folks should know by now how the new C&P mechanics work. If they don't? Well IMO they really should be looking at patch notes published here and elsewhere.




>>>>>>>>>>> the point >>>>>>>

>>>you<<<

As a PvE player, and explorer, I have always maximized my jump capacity. Combat is not my game forte. I run.

I have always flown shielded, armed, and sometimes heavily armored.

I expect trouble. That's Elite. I also expect to make mistakes, and have bad days. That's also Elite.

But, jumping down Obsidian Ant's opinions is unfair. The crime system *is* too confusing. That is not the same as *no* consequences.

Why are people so defensive about this? OA was careful to point out that his video was his own opinion, not Holy Writ.

It seems any challenge to a totally unsympathetic audience is anathema.
 
That's just your prejudice against combat pilots talking. Somebody losing their ship over a 200 credit accidental fire accident is overly harsh IMO, and certainly not funny.

I'm a combat pilot, I shoot the ships I'm aiming for and haven't been tempted to stick a sideys FSD into anyhtng other than a sidey then blame FDEV even once. It's the FSD equivalent of a min-max trader with the tiniest shield he can equip, or none. Worthy of a Darwin award honorable mention.

Accidental fire ? <eyebrow twitches thousand yard stare> No such thing.
 
Back
Top Bottom