Original C&P didn't work at all. No one cared about bounties.
Obsidian Ant NEW VIDEO - Crime and Punishment is Flawed
- Thread starter Maro-Val
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Original C&P didn't work at all. No one cared about bounties.
I feel like you're addressing the problem of players stranded in a system after they've been naughty and equipped with sub-par FSD.
Please catch up, most people in this thread are discussing entirety of C&P here, not just that single, tiny issue.
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Precisely the problem - bounties became irrelevant after people made billions, legally or otherwise.
Time for consequences to translate into environment, not just few credits, innit?
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Please check which post I responded to when you responded to me
And it is done so. And it is obviously painful.
My major bug bear is bugs (pun intended). They clearly doesn't allow clear discussion, because of course notoriety not expiring just plainly sucks. And I would better wait for bugs to clear out before going around claiming things that are just first emotional responses to something people get used to do easily, but now can't anymore.
I might have issues with C&P later down the road, I don't claim I am perfectly ok with it. But overall...most of complains are about player choices.
As for ED hints system or in game information system - yes, it is needed.
Anyway, bowing out.
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No, it isn't. See:
Being stuck in a system is not exactly what I mean by consequences translating into environment, but please see above what I mean by it.
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How about a Livestream with Ed and Sandro ....... C&P only .... just to clear all this up ? [yesnod]
Hi everyone... I'm new in the game so sorry if I say something innapropiate :S
What I can see from my point of view as new player is that in this game this C&P systems is "out of focus".
The first thing that surprised me reading this forum was that criminal actions are considered "toxic" for the game. Coming from other games, a player commiting criminal actions is just... a criminal character and it is treated like that by other players and the game itself.
I can guess that this C&P system is just looking for punishing how annoying the player is for another players, and not the criminal action according to the worl of the game. That's why there are these issues with this system.
Let me explain.
For me, if a player kill a trader should be punished, let's say with high bouty. But there should be not any difference between killing a trader NPC or a player. Do you copy me? That should be coherent with the world of the game.
But there should be difference between killing a trader or killing a military ship, or between killing an NPC or just picking up stolen coffee from a destroyed ship in the space.
I can see that in this game, C&P system is more focused on if the crimen was commited against a player or an NPC and that is -in my opinion- wrong.
Another point I am surprised with it is that they call "make the criminal role funnier" to just limite actions not directly related to the crime - that is the use of station services - and it is the same punishment whatever your crime was.
Are you really serious when you are telling me that I can't repair or refuel my ship because I took 1t of grain in a lost planet?????
I can say more: are you serious when you are telling me that I cannot repair my ship or buy ammo just because I was fighting against a clean ship, whatever my reasons is?
I think this systems is out of logic, out of focus and absolutely out of make this game funnier if you compare it with other games. You can't say that it is "more funny" to not let the player repair their ship. That's not inmersive that is a way to limit that player's game. For me it is like a soft bann, and there's no way to avoid it: once you made the action, you are doomed. That's how I feel it. In other games, the funny part of being a criminal was to "avoid being catched". You have nothing like that in this game. "You did your action, you are punished. End of the story". And unless you have a lot of money and ships, you can burn your ship and start the game again because you can literally do nothing with it :S
Another thing I found surprising is that you say "ok, then as a criminal I should move through anarchy systems". But later I find that governments depend on players So... you have pvp player, or pirats or smugglers... dommed to play that thing called "BGS" (about I am looking for information, a really difficult task btw) against people more prepared than you or even more inspired.
I don't know... I think that the main problem in Elite: Dangerous is how players consider criminal actions so Frontier react to that feeling.
For me, a criminal action (in game, of course) it is not a "toxic action", it is only a criminal action and punishments should be coherent with the world we play and not with how annoying is what I do for other players.
What I can see from my point of view as new player is that in this game this C&P systems is "out of focus".
The first thing that surprised me reading this forum was that criminal actions are considered "toxic" for the game. Coming from other games, a player commiting criminal actions is just... a criminal character and it is treated like that by other players and the game itself.
I can guess that this C&P system is just looking for punishing how annoying the player is for another players, and not the criminal action according to the worl of the game. That's why there are these issues with this system.
Let me explain.
For me, if a player kill a trader should be punished, let's say with high bouty. But there should be not any difference between killing a trader NPC or a player. Do you copy me? That should be coherent with the world of the game.
But there should be difference between killing a trader or killing a military ship, or between killing an NPC or just picking up stolen coffee from a destroyed ship in the space.
I can see that in this game, C&P system is more focused on if the crimen was commited against a player or an NPC and that is -in my opinion- wrong.
Another point I am surprised with it is that they call "make the criminal role funnier" to just limite actions not directly related to the crime - that is the use of station services - and it is the same punishment whatever your crime was.
Are you really serious when you are telling me that I can't repair or refuel my ship because I took 1t of grain in a lost planet?????
I can say more: are you serious when you are telling me that I cannot repair my ship or buy ammo just because I was fighting against a clean ship, whatever my reasons is?
I think this systems is out of logic, out of focus and absolutely out of make this game funnier if you compare it with other games. You can't say that it is "more funny" to not let the player repair their ship. That's not inmersive that is a way to limit that player's game. For me it is like a soft bann, and there's no way to avoid it: once you made the action, you are doomed. That's how I feel it. In other games, the funny part of being a criminal was to "avoid being catched". You have nothing like that in this game. "You did your action, you are punished. End of the story". And unless you have a lot of money and ships, you can burn your ship and start the game again because you can literally do nothing with it :S
Another thing I found surprising is that you say "ok, then as a criminal I should move through anarchy systems". But later I find that governments depend on players
So... you have pvp player, or pirats or smugglers... dommed to play that thing called "BGS" (about I am looking for information, a really difficult task btw) against people more prepared than you or even more inspired.I don't know... I think that the main problem in Elite: Dangerous is how players consider criminal actions so Frontier react to that feeling.
For me, a criminal action (in game, of course) it is not a "toxic action", it is only a criminal action and punishments should be coherent with the world we play and not with how annoying is what I do for other players.
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https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/407608-Crime-and-Punishment-in-Beyond-Chapter-One
Why would you want to watch an hour of Sandro trying to explain the C&P while Ed is doing his best to side-track him by engaging with the live chat and doing the usual CM nonsense when you have a written recap already.
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Misdemeanors should not result in bounties. A misdemeanor should be a simple fine. Jeez - it ain't rocket science. Fines should be treated differently to bounties. Simple. Why can't they do this? A misdemeanor is, by definition, a non-indictable offence. Because, to all those who continuously bleat about not committing the crime, the simple fact is, no matter how good you are at situational awareness you are GOING to get caught out some time. That is the nature of chaotic arenas - the dude you can't see will suddenly appear at high velocity and there ain't nobody gonna avoid that every time. And that poor sod who has 1 point of armour left will throw himself on your shields from behind where you have no awareness - it's gonna happen.
Simple fines should not result in being wanted - that is plain nuts!
Simple fines should not result in being wanted - that is plain nuts!
You miss my point there ... yes, it's explained in that wall of text. I want them to demonstrate the system on screen ..... show us how it works in practice.
This is already the case.
You don't need to see a ship to know it's there. You have a radar telling you where every ship is in relation with your own, keep an eye on it. And when a ship is close enough that they could realistically boost into your line of fire from behind you they are also close enough that you can hear their thrusters.
NPCs don't rear-end you, realistically the only way you're going to collide with an NPC is if you fly into them.
Simple fines don't result in being wanted, that's what bounties do.
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The 2 hours AFK will be great viewing
Joking aside I can see a walk through of how the system works could be a good thing to show.
I pick up mission, it ask me to go place A to fix their broken equipment, i scan it and get wanted status from doing so. The skimmers there start attack me and even those belong to the same faction that gave that mission. Because i am wanted by this faction now, i can't use the factions stations. If faction give me mission to do something it should never, ever make me wanted on their eyes or give me fine/bounty. Its seem so simply and easy concept. If the crime i need to do for the mission is against other faction than mission giver then fine/bounty and wanted status is logical, but if i do the crime in space controlled/owned by same faction as mission giver or against faction giving the mission i shouldn't get any penalty.
I don't think MF are supposed to target themselves with criminal missions, so you should report it.
This have been bug for some time and I think it was fixed in recent patches.
Firstly fines don't result in being wanted.
If I understand your argument correctly, you're saying Assault should be a fine instead of a bounty. That way you aren't wanted due to accidental fire on an NPC, and it's crazy it isn't this way.
Think about this if the roles are reversed. NPC/Player want's to kill you, only (s)he's clean, so shoots at you and gets an assault charge. If that is a fine instead of a bounty, how do you retaliate, without getting fined yourself ? Essentially the winner gets a murder charge, irrespective of who started it. The reason some things like assault / tresspass are bounties (but also misdemeanors) are, so there can be "legal" retaliation. I do think they should be a bit easier to rectify than more serious crimes but they can't simply change these misdemeanors to fines.
2 or 3 days ago I was fined for reckless weapon discharge when I opened fire at an in fact wanted, but unscanned pirate lord (mission target) during an assassination wing mission.
Didn't they say that they were going to change this rule?
Didn't they say that they were going to change this rule?
I've accepted wing assassination missions and received bounties for destroying the targets.
That rule is specific is target is wanted *before* scan. If someone's pirate first meal of the day then it will be seen as assault.
The target was wanted when my scan finished. He must have been wanted before I shot at him, because he did literally nothing between the two events (my plasma shot landing on his shield and his wanted status appearing on my HUD).
Almost feel like that portion is directed at me [where is it], as I commented on your previous video stating that I disagree with your argument regarding the complexity of the C&P system and that "simple system" (referring to how friendly-fire is handled) being a core issue.
To be completely honest, for some people the C&P system is as simple as that. How so?
a) don't engage in Power Play
b) play in solo in a multi-role ship build (so you can do whatever legal activity)
c) not care about the local jurisdictions or minor factions, as you just move on to the next system if you do get a bounty (point b makes the hot module stuff irrelevant, as you don't need to swap)
That leaves you with any crime being pretty negligible and you pay it off if you feel bothered to do so. This has been my experience with the C&P system so far:
Traveled 150Ly in an unengineered, near stock corvette (6D FSD) to get to an IF just for that 200cr fine of friendly fire. I then learned how to find IFs that are closer and how little affect the bounty actually has in game. Later I even incurred a murder bounty for a clean npc ship bumping into me in a haz res (which is an annoyance, but it happens). Sure, I had to wait to get the notoriety to go down, but I just swapped systems and continued my bounty hunting until then. No actual consequence for me.
My point is: crime needs to have some form of interactivity and sensible impact (dis-/advantage). To achieve that, there is undoubtedly going to be an even more complex system, as ED is a complex game. (The ability to hand yourself in, whilst getting scanned by authorities would be a step in the right direction. Gaining better prices in anarchy systems due to bounties would also be neat.)
I completely agree with you that the current implementation is a mess, however. Mainly because the system is getting tweaked so frequently.
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