Obsidian Ant NEW VIDEO - Crime and Punishment is Flawed

[FatFreddysCoat]

Clipping someone accidentally that flies into you or flies into your fire arc shouldn’t result in anything more inconvenient than paying a fine at a local station. Killing somebody should result in harsher consequences with more arduous solutions.

If I’m firing at an enemy with turreted weapons especially, which don’t stop firing when you release the trigger, and somebody flies into my fire then how is that my fault?

That’s like blaming the driver if somebody doesn’t look where they’re going and deliberately walks out into the road in front of them.

I guess the problem is with the game engines difficulty in differentiating between the two. There are plenty of posts from people who’ve accidentally hit the wrong person and then somebody else has killed them but they’ve been hit with a bounty, which is asinine or poor programming at worst.

If not then I don’t understand why FDev can’t sort this out.

 

[Scryder]

I think this system is really flawed. I'm generally law abiding in the game. But I have a Cutter sitting in a far away base because I was speeding out of the mail-slot and clipped someone by accident. Then forgot that I was fined (as I logged off after landing and logged in later in the day), jumped into my faster ship and went to the other side of the bubble. Then when I went to transfer ship, it is shown as "FINED" and cost about 9 million credits to transfer. It appears to get that ship cleared, I need to go back to the ship, and get the infraction cleared... which I will have to at some point, but can't be bothered to jump to it. With the amount of grind to get that much cash, I hesitate to waste money in game.

I don't understand why you can't pay off a fine in person. In real life, if I get a speeding ticket, I will be the one paying the fine for it, not my car (at least not yet... maybe it's like the taxi in The Fifth Element). So why do I need to be sitting in my ship to pay off the minor fine for the ship before clearing it?!!!

Also note that I mostly play SOLO, so it's not like I'm affecting anyone else.

 

[Krieger]

Clipping someone accidentally that flies into you or flies into your fire arc shouldn’t result in anything more inconvenient than paying a fine at a local station. Killing somebody should result in harsher consequences with more arduous solutions.

If I’m firing at an enemy with turreted weapons especially, which don’t stop firing when you release the trigger, and somebody flies into my fire then how is that my fault?

That’s like blaming the driver if somebody doesn’t look where they’re going and deliberately walks out into the road in front of them.

I guess the problem is with the game engines difficulty in differentiating between the two. There are plenty of posts from people who’ve accidentally hit the wrong person and then somebody else has killed them but they’ve been hit with a bounty, which is asinine or poor programming at worst.

If not then I don’t understand why FDev can’t sort this out.

I think there is a problem is in the design of the game not in the game engine. E.g. the game does not require players to indicate which mission they are working on if they have more than one active mission. The consequence is that the game must try to work out the intent of player actions so the consequences of the action can be attributed to the right active missions. Writing software to "understand" the intent of a human is very very difficult, even for scenarios that look simple. I think the mission stacking exploit also was a symptom of this problem.

A similar situation occurs with friendly fire: the game has to "guess" the intent of the player when a target is hit.

 

[Old Duck]

If I were to say what I really feel, then I would talk about the ethics of using a megaphone to advance a personal agenda, and Obsidian is already well aware of what I think about this.

It's his megaphone - his personal YouTube channel. It's not like he's an elected official or something. What personal agenda are you advancing with your keyboard?

 

[jasonbarron]

Wasn't meant as an attack, just a precise use of carefully chosen words to describe the degree of irrelevance of 90% of his flow chart.

histrionic = dramatic behavior designed to attract attention
hyperbolic = exaggerated language that overstates the truth
tangent = a digression to something only barely related to the original topic

If I were to say what I really feel, then I would talk about the ethics of using a megaphone to advance a personal agenda, and Obsidian is already well aware of what I think about this.

Most of us regulars are here to advance an agenda, you can't hold it against a guy for having a bigger platform with which to do it

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Wasn't meant as an attack, just a precise use of carefully chosen words to describe the degree of irrelevance of 90% of his flow chart.

histrionic = dramatic behavior designed to attract attention
hyperbolic = exaggerated language that overstates the truth
tangent = a digression to something only barely related to the original topic

If I were to say what I really feel, then I would talk about the ethics of using a megaphone to advance a personal agenda, and Obsidian is already well aware of what I think about this.

Firstly it's not "my" chart, I just posted it.

Second, if push comes to shove I'd say 90% of the video is relevant, and the 10% everyone is focusing on (friendly fire, ships getting stuck), are just symptomatic. But it's totally fine if people want to keep focusing on those symptoms...my mistake was perhaps using them as examples in the first place.

It's his megaphone - his personal YouTube channel. It's not like he's an elected official or something. What personal agenda are you advancing with your keyboard?

I honestly don't take it as a personal attack. Ziljan already knows what I think about the way he directs his opinions. They are reductionist and full of loaded terms (not to mention the very questionable assumptions he makes regarding motivations, in addition to needing to get personal). But he seems to feel very comfortable in addressing his arguments in that manner. I certainly don't have issue with that - but I don't find it very engaging either.

Really though, we shouldn't be discussing the poster here, just the content / ideas.

 

[jasonbarron]

@ziljan, for the record I don't have a problem with harsh penalties in the game. Since I've been back from my break (8 months away prior to the release of 3.0) I haven't properly had a chance to even explore the new system, so my experience is mostly based on other people talking about their experiences. The "wrong side of history" charge you leveled against me was probably misplaced as I think you're rushing to judgment with me. In fact, I think most people are rushing to judgment in one way or another on this c&p topic. Honestly, the new system does seem overly punitive in some ways, on the other hand perhaps it will have a long term "rehabilitation" effect in regards to retraining habitual offenders & sloppy players sort of like a stop light cam placed in a strategic intersection where lazy drivers habitually blow the red light because they don't see a sheriff's cruiser. People bitterly complain about the fines, but ultimately learn to obey the posted driving laws even if just to save themselves some money. I am hopeful that this will be the case.

In the meantime, I don't think going all "gloves off & kick 'em in the nuts" with the discourse is appropriate, either, as it does seem like a messy topic that is much deserving of some conversation that I hate to see shut down. And that's how I percieve your own tactic in regards to disagreement on this matter; going in strong and heavy and try to shut down the dissenters. All I'm arguing for is diplomacy and prudence.

For whatever its worth, now that I have my Chief & FdL modded with three different load outs each I'm ready to start exploring this new system and seeing how I can help bring justice to the galaxy. If it turns out that I can equip a KWS and legally kill every CMDR with so much as a 100 credit parking violation, thats what I'm going to be doing for the foreseeable future

 

[Gorr]

I was just killed by the station and I don't even know what happened.

I was comming from CZ to restock and hand in combat vouchers when I saw that station is shooting at someone else inside while I was near the entrance... while I was entering I think someone hit me from inside ( I say I think as I haven't seen anybody comming out straight ahead of me, it felt like someone was trying to fast escape from station or something like that), I got fine for reckless flying but station also started to shoot at me in a matter of seconds.
Cutter is really slow and sluggish, especially flying using M/KB as I have to press "forward" thruster and release it in sequence so I accelerate and deaccelerate in short intervals, and passing 100 limit is really easy in such unresponsive ship, so my only guess is that at the moment of collision I was going at like 110 speed instead of 100 limit.

Everything happened so fast, I was just looking at the rebuy screen few seconds later.

If this is how new system works I think I will just go play something else and check this forums occasionally.

 

[Stigbob]

I was just killed by the station and I don't even know what happened.

I was comming from CZ to restock and hand in combat vouchers when I saw that station is shooting at someone else inside while I was near the entrance... while I was entering I think someone hit me from inside ( I say I think as I haven't seen anybody comming out straight ahead of me, it felt like someone was trying to fast escape from station or something like that), I got fine for reckless flying but station also started to shoot at me in a matter of seconds.
Cutter is really slow and sluggish, especially flying using M/KB as I have to press "forward" thruster and release it in sequence so I accelerate and deaccelerate in short intervals, and passing 100 limit is really easy in such unresponsive ship, so my only guess is that at the moment of collision I was going at like 110 speed instead of 100 limit.

Everything happened so fast, I was just looking at the rebuy screen few seconds later.

If this is how new system works I think I will just go play something else and check this forums occasionally.

Sounds like a ramming troll got you.

Work out what pip setting combined with gear down gives you about 95mps and use that to approach. Or only visit CG's and busy stations in group or solo.

EDIT : or block all the station griefers, they are few in number and really easy to find :
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ners-advice-on-dealing-with-griefing-(part-2)

 

[Lightspeed]

I was just killed by the station and I don't even know what happened.

I was comming from CZ to restock and hand in combat vouchers when I saw that station is shooting at someone else inside while I was near the entrance... while I was entering I think someone hit me from inside ( I say I think as I haven't seen anybody comming out straight ahead of me, it felt like someone was trying to fast escape from station or something like that), I got fine for reckless flying but station also started to shoot at me in a matter of seconds.
Cutter is really slow and sluggish, especially flying using M/KB as I have to press "forward" thruster and release it in sequence so I accelerate and deaccelerate in short intervals, and passing 100 limit is really easy in such unresponsive ship, so my only guess is that at the moment of collision I was going at like 110 speed instead of 100 limit.

Everything happened so fast, I was just looking at the rebuy screen few seconds later.

If this is how new system works I think I will just go play something else and check this forums occasionally.

Check your journal to confirm what really happened, not what you think may have happened.

 

[jasonbarron]

I was just killed by the station and I don't even know what happened.

I was comming from CZ to restock and hand in combat vouchers when I saw that station is shooting at someone else inside while I was near the entrance... while I was entering I think someone hit me from inside ( I say I think as I haven't seen anybody comming out straight ahead of me, it felt like someone was trying to fast escape from station or something like that), I got fine for reckless flying but station also started to shoot at me in a matter of seconds.
Cutter is really slow and sluggish, especially flying using M/KB as I have to press "forward" thruster and release it in sequence so I accelerate and deaccelerate in short intervals, and passing 100 limit is really easy in such unresponsive ship, so my only guess is that at the moment of collision I was going at like 110 speed instead of 100 limit.

Everything happened so fast, I was just looking at the rebuy screen few seconds later.

If this is how new system works I think I will just go play something else and check this forums occasionally.

Sounds like you were suicided. Keeping your speed under 100m/s shouldn't really be a problem with keyboard and mouse using thrusters. Just don't push the speed envelope in the first place. If you're going 99m/s they go boom and you win.

 

[Gorr]

I am much more carefull about griefers when in Open, I was in a group this time.

Yes it looks someone bumped into me and died, maybe even the ship that station was shooting at so it was at few % hull...

Looks like going 110 instead of 100 cost a lot of time and nerves, and is a big no no.
Not sure if I am perfectly fine with that though...

{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:35:33Z", "event":"DockingRequested", "MarketID":3226528256, "StationName":"Morey Port", "StationType":"Orbis" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:35:35Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"Morey Port", "Message":"$DockingChatter_Friendly;", "Message_Localised":"It's great to see you again, Commander.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:35:35Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"Morey Port", "Message":"$STATION_docking_granted;", "Message_Localised":"Docking request granted.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:35:35Z", "event":"DockingGranted", "LandingPad":32, "MarketID":3226528256, "StationName":"Morey Port", "StationType":"Orbis" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:11Z", "event":"CommitCrime", "CrimeType":"collidedAtSpeedInNoFireZone_hulldamage", "Faction":"United Ross 310 Progressive Party", "Fine":200 }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:14Z", "event":"Music", "MusicTrack":"Starport" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:15Z", "event":"PVPKill", "Victim":"ScrumpyWizard6", "CombatRank":6 }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"CommitCrime", "CrimeType":"murder", "Faction":"United Ross 310 Progressive Party", "Victim":"ScrumpyWizard6", "Bounty":5000 }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Federation;", "From_Localised":"Federal Security Service", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement02;", "Message_Localised":"Back-up has arrived.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Federation;", "From_Localised":"Federal Security Service", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement03;", "Message_Localised":"We're responding to an emergency signal.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Federation;", "From_Localised":"Federal Security Service", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement05;", "Message_Localised":"Emergency reserve force deploying.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Federation;", "From_Localised":"Federal Security Service", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement03;", "Message_Localised":"We're responding to an emergency signal.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Federation;", "From_Localised":"Federal Security Service", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement03;", "Message_Localised":"We're responding to an emergency signal.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Federation;", "From_Localised":"Federal Security Service", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement01;", "Message_Localised":"Reinforcements incoming.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"Morey Port", "Message":"$DockingFailed_Hostile;", "Message_Localised":"Criminals have no docking privileges, lethal response authorised", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"DockingDenied", "Reason":"Hostile", "MarketID":3226528256, "StationName":"Morey Port", "StationType":"Orbis" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"Morey Port", "Message":"$StationAggressorResponseMessage;", "Message_Localised":"Hostility logged, lethal response authorised.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:16Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"Morey Port", "Message":"$DockingTresspassWarningComms;", "Message_Localised":"Unauthorised access infraction detected, clear starport immediately to avoid lethal response", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:17Z", "event":"Music", "MusicTrack":"Combat_Dogfight" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:17Z", "event":"UnderAttack", "Target":"You" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:20Z", "event":"HullDamage", "Health":0.782367, "PlayerPilot":true, "Fighter":false }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:21Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Federation;", "From_Localised":"Federal Security Service", "Message":"$Police_Attack10;", "Message_Localised":"Submit to justice, criminal.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:21Z", "event":"HullDamage", "Health":0.571896, "PlayerPilot":true, "Fighter":false }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:22Z", "event":"HullDamage", "Health":0.396503, "PlayerPilot":true, "Fighter":false }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:24Z", "event":"HullDamage", "Health":0.186030, "PlayerPilot":true, "Fighter":false }
{ "timestamp":"2018-03-31T14:36:24Z", "event":"Died" }

 

[Lightspeed]

It's usually a deliberate ploy to take out speeding ships .... collide and die .... minimal cost to the assailant, maximum cost to you. Only one way to prevent this, as has been said already.

 

[Ziljan]

Firstly it's not "my" chart, I just posted it.

Second, if push comes to shove I'd say 90% of the video is relevant, and the 10% everyone is focusing on (friendly fire, ships getting stuck), are just symptomatic. But it's totally fine if people want to keep focusing on those symptoms...my mistake was perhaps using them as examples in the first place.





I honestly don't take it as a personal attack. Ziljan already knows what I think about the way he directs his opinions. They are reductionist and full of loaded terms (not to mention the very questionable assumptions he makes regarding motivations, in addition to needing to get personal). But he seems to feel very comfortable in addressing his arguments in that manner. I certainly don't have issue with that - but I don't find it very engaging either.

Really though, we shouldn't be discussing the poster here, just the content / ideas.

The logical technique is called reductio ad absurdum. Reduce the fallacies of the opposing argument to their ridiculous conclusions. In this case I removed all the portions of your flowchart that only apply to the 1% of players that are actually impacted by things like power play violence and repeatedly murdering clean NPC ships. Once you remove these cases the flowchart becomes incredibly simple, and hence your argument that the system is needless complex and overbearing becomes... ridiculous.

I watched your video pretty carefully Obsidian. I don't remember you spending 90% of the video on power play or murder hoboing of NPCs, which is what the bulk of that chart pertains to. You mostly repeated the same handful of subjective assessments that weren't anchored in objectivity nor did you present any opposing viewpoints whatsoever.

 

[Ziljan]

It's his megaphone - his personal YouTube channel. It's not like he's an elected official or something. What personal agenda are you advancing with your keyboard?

The reason I bring up ethics in regards to Obsidian's youtube channel is that his channel is presented as a newsreel "the latest news and happenings in Elite". So when he injects his own editorial into it, that is a violation of journalistic ethics because he is presenting his opinions as "news". I guess in this age of propagandistic news, we've become inured to things like this, but I guess I am still old school and idealistic.

Now if he were to instead come here on the forums and post his ideas like everyone else, that is a perfectly legit format and I would treat it like any other post.

 

[jasonbarron]

Am I next in the bucket?

 

[Ziljan]

The "wrong side of history" charge you leveled against me was probably misplaced as I think you're rushing to judgment with me. In fact, I think most people are rushing to judgment in one way or another on this c&p topic. Honestly, the new system does seem overly punitive in some ways, on the other hand perhaps it will have a long term "rehabilitation" effect in regards to retraining habitual offenders & sloppy players sort of like a stop light cam placed in a strategic intersection where lazy drivers habitually blow the red light because they don't see a sheriff's cruiser. People bitterly complain about the fines, but ultimately learn to obey the posted driving laws even if just to save themselves some money. I am hopeful that this will be the case.

Check the tape, I never said 'wrong side', I said "other side of history". I can respect opposing opinions enough to realize that they aren't facts and hence can't be "wrong". The logician's term used for opinions is "valid" or "invalid" based on how closely they agree with any available evidence. And I think you're assessment here is valid, people are reacting far too quickly. C&P was my major focus in the Beta, and have a few dozen hours of pushing the boundaries under my belt. But you're right, even I may be jumping the gun in my enthusiasm for consequences.

In the meantime, I don't think going all "gloves off & kick 'em in the nuts" with the discourse is appropriate, either, as it does seem like a messy topic that is much deserving of some conversation that I hate to see shut down. And that's how I percieve your own tactic in regards to disagreement on this matter; going in strong and heavy and try to shut down the dissenters. All I'm arguing for is diplomacy and prudence.

I don't think this characterization of my posts is fair, and tbh seems kinda like throwing chum in the water. I ALWAYS attempt to be reserved and measured in any response on the forums. I don't think Obsidian takes what I am saying as anything as more than a strong critique and negative feedback for his latest episode. I still respect him and the service he provides very much, and I will continue to subscribe to his channel and "like" the videos that I like. But that will never prevent me from following my own code of ethics and calling out what I feel is legit hyperbole. It's never a personal attack, just a critique of deeds & words, not people.

For whatever its worth, now that I have my Chief & FdL modded with three different load outs each I'm ready to start exploring this new system and seeing how I can help bring justice to the galaxy. If it turns out that I can equip a KWS and legally kill every CMDR with so much as a 100 credit parking violation, thats what I'm going to be doing for the foreseeable future

lololol. If you do, please make a video.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

The reason I bring up ethics in regards to Obsidian's youtube channel is that his channel is presented as a newsreel "the latest news and happenings in Elite". So when he injects his own editorial into it, that is a violation of journalistic ethics because he is presenting his opinions as "news". I guess in this age of propagandistic news, we've become inured to things like this, but I guess I am still old school and idealistic.

Now if he were to instead come here on the forums and post his ideas like everyone else, that is a perfectly legit format and I would treat it like any other post.

I've never presented my channel as a news channel. The latest "news and happens" is purely for the 3304 'news' series.

We've come a long way off topic when you are calling me out for integrity.

Sometimes I present an unbiased view. And sometimes I don't. Some of my videos are 100% purely biased opinion - I would never claim otherwise (in fact I made it very clear in that video that it was my own opinion).

I don't think this characterization of my posts is fair, and tbh seems kinda like throwing chum in the water. I ALWAYS attempt to be reserved and measured in any response on the forums. I don't think Obsidian takes what I am saying as anything as more than a strong critique and negative feedback for his latest episode. I still respect him and the service he provides very much, and I will continue to subscribe to his channel and "like" the videos that I like. But that will never prevent me from following my own code of ethics and calling out what I feel is legit hyperbole. It's never a personal attack, just a critique of deeds & words, not people.

I don't have a problem with what you say, although I admit, I do struggle to take your method of discussion and approach seriously. You use the word 'hyperbole' a lot, yet I personally would apply it to how you structure your arguments. To each their own I guess.

Still always happy to read your thoughts and opinions though.

(Gonna be keeping out this thread after this post, it's gone too far off track).

 

[jasonbarron]

Check the tape, I never said 'wrong side', I said "other side of history". I can respect opposing opinions enough to realize that they aren't facts and hence can't be "wrong". The logician's term used for opinions is "valid" or "invalid" based on how closely they agree with any available evidence. And I think you're assessment here is valid, people are reacting far too quickly. C&P was my major focus in the Beta, and have a few dozen hours of pushing the boundaries under my belt. But you're right, even I may be jumping the gun in my enthusiasm for consequences.



I don't think this characterization of my posts is fair, and tbh seems kinda like throwing chum in the water. I ALWAYS attempt to be reserved and measured in any response on the forums. I don't think Obsidian takes what I am saying as anything as more than a strong critique and negative feedback for his latest episode. I still respect him and the service he provides very much, and I will continue to subscribe to his channel and "like" the videos that I like. But that will never prevent me from following my own code of ethics and calling out what I feel is legit hyperbole. It's never a personal attack, just a critique of deeds & words, not people.



lololol. If you do, please make a video.

I knew that I was up next!

Yeah, I'll definitely make a video or three. I'm actually toying with the idea of starting youtube channel of my own dedicated to ED adventures. I have some ideas that i think will be fun and entertaining. My voice is nowhere near as soothing as OA's, though...

 

[GG7]

I don't have a problem with what you say, although I admit, I do struggle to take your method of discussion and approach seriously. You use the word 'hyperbole' a lot, yet I personally would apply it to how you structure your arguments. To each their own I guess.

Still always happy to read your thoughts and opinions though.

Hello again OA,

Don't waste your time on this guy. I sure as hell never do anymore.

As far as his accusations are concerned... I call that HYPERBOLE!

You always preface any video where you are going to be injecting your own personal thoughts into it. I've never had any problems with it and I am sure that 99.9% of your fans don't either.

Besides that, your observations on this particular topic were right on the money as far as I am concerned.

Keep up the great work! You are a true asset to the ED community! [up]

Despite what Mr. Hyperbole thinks. [wacky]