Of course it's satisfying. As is any circumstance you can reap all the benefits without suffering any of the drawbacks.
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The PvE/PvP rift is a simple one of equipment.
As long as it continues to be advantageous to stack every single slot on our ship with defense (boosters in the utes, hrps/mrps in the optionals), over a ship that carries ANY mission equipment whatsoever, this imbalance will continue.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, FD almost hit on the answer back in the day with specialist modules, unfortunately, they addressed it backwards (it is kinda counter intuitive, so bear with me). When they gave military ships military slots, what they should have done was the opposite, dedicate some slots on EVERY ship to NON-military items.
Example: Each small ship gets 1 non-military optional slot and 1 non military utility slot. Each medium ship gets 2 non military slots and 2 non military utilities, etc etc. Tweak for specific ships as needed.
This would mean every ship, pvp or pve would be able to max out defense and still be able to scan a system, carry 4t of cargo or scoop fuel and not be a total victim in combat.
Trust me when I say this is THE whole issue with pve vs pvp. As long as you enforce this equipment gap and continue to say 'pveers show their skill by successfully running away, herp derp', those who think its unfair will run in solo/pg.
This is why WoW has two gearsets, one for pve and one for pvp, it's kinda obvious to most gamemakers.
As long as it continues to be advantageous to stack every single slot on our ship with defense (boosters in the utes, hrps/mrps in the optionals), over a ship that carries ANY mission equipment whatsoever, this imbalance will continue.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, FD almost hit on the answer back in the day with specialist modules, unfortunately, they addressed it backwards (it is kinda counter intuitive, so bear with me). When they gave military ships military slots, what they should have done was the opposite, dedicate some slots on EVERY ship to NON-military items.
Example: Each small ship gets 1 non-military optional slot and 1 non military utility slot. Each medium ship gets 2 non military slots and 2 non military utilities, etc etc. Tweak for specific ships as needed.
This would mean every ship, pvp or pve would be able to max out defense and still be able to scan a system, carry 4t of cargo or scoop fuel and not be a total victim in combat.
Trust me when I say this is THE whole issue with pve vs pvp. As long as you enforce this equipment gap and continue to say 'pveers show their skill by successfully running away, herp derp', those who think its unfair will run in solo/pg.
This is why WoW has two gearsets, one for pve and one for pvp, it's kinda obvious to most gamemakers.
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No open world PvE game with PvP elements ever will make PvE and PvP players get along. Motivation, goals and outlook of the two are too fundamentally different. The endless circle fighting on the forums would always continue, even if FD found the holy grail of balancing where there was no longer a difference between PvE and PvP builds. The only games that ever made both player types happy were those that strictly separated the two modes of play. Prime examples are Guild Wars 1 and 2. PvP is a large part especially of GW2, but it's strictly separate from PvE. That allows the devs to balance things completely differently for the two modes, creating a satisfying experience for both PvE and PvP players. Personally I'm a PvE player, I would not touch PvP with a 10 foot pole in ED. To me it's fruitless, senseless, needless. In Gw1 and 2 I took part in both game aspects, because PvP there actually made sense.
Two options to balance.
1st get rid of the worst design decision ever--the engineer's.
2nd buff NPCs, and give them engineered modules, so they are actually a challenge (based on your combat rank) and a decent build is needed so there is less of a gap between pve and PvP builds.
Option 1 will never happen but option 2 might.
1st get rid of the worst design decision ever--the engineer's.
2nd buff NPCs, and give them engineered modules, so they are actually a challenge (based on your combat rank) and a decent build is needed so there is less of a gap between pve and PvP builds.
Option 1 will never happen but option 2 might.
I think stronger AIs is good idea, but I also agree thhis should be optional. I think FD are trying to move to this, with the large Thargoids, and Wing Assasination missions as a couple of recent examples. You have to extensively modify your loadout for Thargoids. We have rank scaling now, so FD can tweak at various parts of the combat rank journey.
One question that springs to mind is. "Why are the multi-billionaire, or even multi-millionaire building ships for the harder PvE optional encounters, but shunning PvP builds?" Resource Gathering for Guardian weapons is a lot of work, perhaps more than "My first engineered PvP ship". Yet I imagine most people's experience of PvP comes down to corkscrewing away, with chaff for good measure and then a high or lo wake.
Rather than changing the PvE game - which its seems the majority of players play (ok even PvPers have to play it!), why not reframe the question as to how to make PvP more attractive?
I like the recent competitive CG as an initiative, yeah setting up Fed verses Indy was probably going to be one sided in hindsight, but the next competitive one can be better. I was tempted, but rammed a White Dwarf on the way to it. The thing about hull tanking is its dperessing when all your modules read 0% lol Alas account reset for me, and a note to self to figure out how to escape from White Dwarf. PvE got in the way of PvP!
Cheers
Simon
One question that springs to mind is. "Why are the multi-billionaire, or even multi-millionaire building ships for the harder PvE optional encounters, but shunning PvP builds?" Resource Gathering for Guardian weapons is a lot of work, perhaps more than "My first engineered PvP ship". Yet I imagine most people's experience of PvP comes down to corkscrewing away, with chaff for good measure and then a high or lo wake.
Rather than changing the PvE game - which its seems the majority of players play (ok even PvPers have to play it!), why not reframe the question as to how to make PvP more attractive?
I like the recent competitive CG as an initiative, yeah setting up Fed verses Indy was probably going to be one sided in hindsight, but the next competitive one can be better. I was tempted, but rammed a White Dwarf on the way to it. The thing about hull tanking is its dperessing when all your modules read 0% lol Alas account reset for me, and a note to self to figure out how to escape from White Dwarf. PvE got in the way of PvP!
Cheers
Simon
Based on your post you don't understand the game. Very few pvp builds I see Rinzler etal fly would last long at all in a CZ at current AI capability. BGS work requires a ship that may have to do BH, surface scanning, cargo, combat zones and salvage. I have a ship that can do all of that passably. NPCs aren't meant to be a PVP style confrontation. All buffing NPCs to that level would do is require BH to be a one kill return to station affair and make CZs unfeasable.
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Have to agree with you.
I remember reading a post in the PvP sub-forum a while ago. In it, a relative newcomer asked how to survive in Open whilst doing that task he enjoys which was trading. Well all the helpful replies come flooding in, with 9 out of 10 telling him to get rid of those useless cargo racks and fit more SCB's, MRP and HRP, biggest Shield Gen etc. The newcomer replied that if he did that he couldn't trade, what would be the use of it. Again the replies flowed, telling him that if he wanted to play in Open, he basically had to forget about trading, well everything except combat.
I know that isn't the normal case in Open, but it did highlight the PvP "win at all cost, every ship is a target" mentality that is causing the rift between the two groups. It seems that one group just wants to do their own thing, the other group thinks everything should be doing THEIR (as in PvP) thing.
You are basically asking for game changes to improve your forum experience?
Only one person can force you to 'defend yourself instead of your ideas' on an internet forum, and thats you mate. I really have no idea what this is about.
Of course it are 2 different games, or modes. What you described is exactly how it should work, in my eyes.
You don't really deliver the argument for your assumption. It comes just over as the lamentation of the power tripper - a player caught in the nether regions of power creep. Make no mistake, I don't blame the players - it's the designers who introduced engineers and it's them as well who didn't give a cup of crap when they designed player-to-player interactivity.
Allow me to clarify my statement: Build your ships such that you can survive an encounter with a fully Engineered PVPer. While fighting back with said PVPer could be a part of that encounter (and for me it will be since combat is my go-to thing), it doesn't have to be strictly speaking. Outfitting with the expectation of being attacked by a PVPer would allow you to survive virtually any human NPC encounter as of now (3.0.5) assuming sufficient pilot skill, though as you noted this may affect efficiency in some areas depending on how you build your ship with that mantra in mind. It's a trade-off that I've decided to take, one that may work for some but not for others.
Suggesting that the solution to the current PvP/pve "rift" is to make NPCs tougher is no solution at all.
If you logically follow the course through you're basically saying that your fix is that pve players should git gud, and that, if they have to outfit all their trade ships for pvp combat so as to deal with $random NPC encounter, then that would be ok. In other words, your suggested fix to the rift is to turn all pve player ships into PvP capable warships.
Even leaving asides the issues around creating human like NPCs, I'm guessing that you can possibly see where there's an issue with that concept?
If you logically follow the course through you're basically saying that your fix is that pve players should git gud, and that, if they have to outfit all their trade ships for pvp combat so as to deal with $random NPC encounter, then that would be ok. In other words, your suggested fix to the rift is to turn all pve player ships into PvP capable warships.
Even leaving asides the issues around creating human like NPCs, I'm guessing that you can possibly see where there's an issue with that concept?
Deleted member 38366
D
IMHO there's alot of misperception about PvE.
Sure, if you enter a RES in a G5-modded Corvette or Trade in your G5-modded Cutter, you're king of the hill. Plus, there's likely quite a bit of combat skill and experience available at this stage.
Things are drastically different though for less experienced Players and non-Horizons Players.
Just take D-Grade unengineered Ships if you want to relive the phase of Players still in the process building up Credits to upgrade their rigs (you'll still have the benefit of experience, can't "D-Grade" that after all
).
Or take A-Grade but entirely unengineered Ships to experience the life of non-Horizons Players. You'll quickly see that life is different.
Alot of PvP guys seem to think that all Players around them are "Horizons endgame", fully Engineered. I believe this is simply not the case.
Plus, I've gotten reminded several times about the huge gap in skill & experience that's very easy to forget - until you see it in action.
Anyway, the difference is that PvP in ELITE typically means a G5-modded and fully dedicated Combat Ship meets something that's not. End of story. And especially post-Engineers that's normally the end of the line.
1000-1500 DPS meets 125 DPS. 4000 SP meets 600 SP. 3500HP meets 900HP. Doesn't take a genius to predict what's most likely to happen if the non-Combat Ship sticks around.
Essentially PvP in ELITE is broken beyond(tm) repair if Combat Traffic seeking Combat meets General-Purpose Traffic seeking something else than Combat.
It is hence no surprise that Players intentionally opt out (no later than seeing the Engineer Grind(tm) and boring Meta Ships/builds that often establish themselves) in venture into the dedicated PvE side of the house.
Heck, I'm personally so tired of Engineers I don't even want to touch them anymore. Screw the Mat Grind, I'm done with that crap. If that puts me behind the power curve and not running PvP Meta gear - so be it.
(seriously, I'd rather eat rebuy screens than facing that brain-destroying stupor of a Mat Grind again... those I actually deem far less painful)
Sure, if you enter a RES in a G5-modded Corvette or Trade in your G5-modded Cutter, you're king of the hill. Plus, there's likely quite a bit of combat skill and experience available at this stage.
Things are drastically different though for less experienced Players and non-Horizons Players.
Just take D-Grade unengineered Ships if you want to relive the phase of Players still in the process building up Credits to upgrade their rigs (you'll still have the benefit of experience, can't "D-Grade" that after all
).Or take A-Grade but entirely unengineered Ships to experience the life of non-Horizons Players. You'll quickly see that life is different.
Alot of PvP guys seem to think that all Players around them are "Horizons endgame", fully Engineered. I believe this is simply not the case.
Plus, I've gotten reminded several times about the huge gap in skill & experience that's very easy to forget - until you see it in action.
Anyway, the difference is that PvP in ELITE typically means a G5-modded and fully dedicated Combat Ship meets something that's not. End of story. And especially post-Engineers that's normally the end of the line.
1000-1500 DPS meets 125 DPS. 4000 SP meets 600 SP. 3500HP meets 900HP. Doesn't take a genius to predict what's most likely to happen if the non-Combat Ship sticks around.
Essentially PvP in ELITE is broken beyond(tm) repair if Combat Traffic seeking Combat meets General-Purpose Traffic seeking something else than Combat.
It is hence no surprise that Players intentionally opt out (no later than seeing the Engineer Grind(tm) and boring Meta Ships/builds that often establish themselves) in venture into the dedicated PvE side of the house.
Heck, I'm personally so tired of Engineers I don't even want to touch them anymore. Screw the Mat Grind, I'm done with that crap. If that puts me behind the power curve and not running PvP Meta gear - so be it.
(seriously, I'd rather eat rebuy screens than facing that brain-destroying stupor of a Mat Grind again... those I actually deem far less painful)
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Totally agree with this. In almost any game I've ever payed where there was a co-existence of pve and pvp, some! elements of the PvP side used the PvE side as fodder and lolz. This does nothing but taint the entire PvP side with nastiness.
In relation to the OP: The problem is one of game ethos; This one, to use pvp parlance, is mostly a carebear one, with pvp tacked on. Not with-standing the fact that the pvp side were found out to be cheating (with the help of Fdev) and shouting 'git gud' through their laughter, has left the PvE side holding not much of anything but contempt for PvP.
Adding any kind of new uber NPC will have a negative effect rather than the one you mention. If players want to farm NPCs they'll go where it suits them to do so. Some do it in low-res, High-res, Haz-Rez or combat zone. The problem demographic here is not the PvE players, but FDev themselves. FDev allowed PvP players free reign to do what they wanted. They helped them cheat and gave them freedom to kill PvE players with zero accountability. And the PvP players took full advantage.
I have the utmost respect for real PvP players, who play the game and their character in the spirit it was meant. Using your video as an example, we saw 3 ships versus 1. From what I saw, you were annoyed that all 3 of you were out played and out matched. You actually waked out in a huff. Then you used it as some insane example of how reverse thrust was the problem. What I saw was a bigger, better ship and better PvP player taking on 3 pilots with at least one of them (you) also using reverse thrust. Every time the 3 of you managed to get a ring of shields down, he managed to get them back. That's how it is on big ships. I don't know for sure, but your 'victim' looked like a capable PvP player, who was simply better equipped and better abled, to deal with 3 small ships who ganged up on him.
In 2 separate occasions in that video you sat on his backside pouring all you could into his shields and you did zippo damage. I'm no PvP expert, but I fail to see what your gripe is. You were in a small ship, he was in a Cutter with great shields and he knew how to use them. You should never be able to take down a ship like that, unless you have the ship capabilities and fire-power to do so.
How, adding uber NPCs will fix that is beyond me.
Caveat; I understand I'm not a PvP player, so I am seriously open to be educated about this if I said anything wrong.
<o
So you want the PvE players to lose precious cargo space etc just so the PvP side can have more lols ?? I'm sorry to say it and no offence is intended, but from my side as a pve player, pvp players are irrelevant in my universe. And thankfully I have the modes to avoid them.
If pvp players want to have their lols let them fight each other??
You have GOT to be joking. The resistance to changes to balance PVP, such as those in the OP of this thread, are by players who want their victims to STAY victims. How did you read the thread and draw the exact opposite conclusion?? You didn't read the thread or the OP did you. Go on, admit it.
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