PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

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Robert Maynard

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The problem as you correctly stated is perception. People don't know what's a worthy sacrifice or not, because they don't really understand games, they just think something is being taken away rather than something being given to them. It's sad, really.

What would be considered to be a "worthy sacrifice" probably varies on a per-player basis - just as a change that might be considered by some to be either directly or indirectly beneficial to their preferred play-style would likely be considered by others to be detrimental.
 
PvP players don't care for PvE, and PvE players don't care for PvP.

Almost every game out there (unless its designed specifically as a PvP game) has a separately designated area/flagging system for PvP for this reason.

When the opposing sides can respect each other based on this simple truth, you'll see more amicable ideas being presented and accepted.
 
I'd rather leave Elite Dangerous on the shelf than play in open.

You'll still have that choice, I wouldl never try to take it away, personally. :)

What would be considered to be a "worthy sacrifice" probably varies on a per-player basis - just as a change that might be considered by some to be either directly or indirectly beneficial to their preferred play-style would likely be considered by others to be detrimental.

And this is why democracy doesn't work in modern society.
 
It doesn't need to be like this. If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way. Yes it would be a mess at first. Yes payouts would need to be adjusted, and cr/hr would be thrown into flux again. But guess what? That's because things are currently not in a good place. This craziness would be a pain, but it would get everyone on the same page. Real productive discussions could take place, with everyone now facing the same challenges and dealing with the same mechanics. Talks could change from "PvP vs. PvE", and instead become, "How can we make the game better?" Will this ever happen? I'm not sure. I tend to be doubtful. FDev has proven themselves to be quite hesitant to upset a given apple, much less the whole apple cart. I can hope, though, and we can all encourage them to take the hard steps that need to be taken.

TL;DR: Change the entire game to be more like PvP so everybody learns to accept the narrow worldview associated with PvP.
 
I agree with the OP in principle...ONE of the issues with ED is that Combat with NPCs is SO one sided...with a Player Eagle or Viper being able to destroy an almost constant stream of either wings or High Level Combat Ships (FAS/FDL Big 3) without ever being threatened...
It's created an environment (and a reward/progression structure) in which destroyed vast swathes of NPCs is expected (Required if you've got that MMO ranking Cr/Hr attitude)
If NPCs were equiped/AI was scaled so 1 vs 1 encounters were challenging and taking on a bigger ship/higher ranked opponent was a considerable challenge in and of itself...rather than a "Speedbump" on its way to the NEXT NPC everything would look VERY different...
We currently have a situation where NPCs (on the whole) behave realistically...attack/Interdict you to steal cargo...because you're wanted...because you're running a mission they're opposed to...because you're an opposing power in a CZ etc etc Good, Immersive in-game reasons...but their Flight/Fight behaviour is unrealistic...on the otherhand PCs (frequently) behave unrealistically...attacking you because you're in a starter system...or an explorer coming back froma long haul back to the edge of the bubble...or because you're in an engineer syste.CG system with a trade/haulage type ship...or simply for sh*ts and giggles...but their Flight/Fight behaviour is Realistic and Challenging...
You'll never change the mentality of a subset of players in an MMO type environment..."those types" will always be present...so thats one side of the equation that cannot be altered...but Frontier CAN make the Enemy NPCs/AI more challenging...giving us a solo/PvE Environment that ticks ALL the boxes...realistic/immersive behaviour AND Challenging Combat...Nobody would ever need to consider coming back to open ever again...
 
OP, what you consider a chasm i consider good game design. A platform that allows a variety of game styles.

Regarding the "balance" issues I'm torn on this. I would expect to meet someone in the void that was light years better than me. And that person should have the chance to be as good as they want. Those encounters help me get better and refine my build. Even against the deadliest of combat ships a good pilot can always escape - just like any number of sci fi pilots of legend.

As for pvp, what is it? Is it two players who meet up for the sole purpose of a duel. Is it anytime one player fights another, even if that fight is not wanted?

What if i like escaping to see how good pilots actually are and how good my flight skills are? Ive built my ship specifically to dance and be on my way without shooting. Is that pvp? Because from that perspective i see no imbalance except maybe for the dueling pvp crowd who will always push the limits of gameplay. What about the bgs?

The large playground and solo vs open options make the chasm a moot point. And as more pilots get better at flying more and more will be in open knowing they can hold their own.
 
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I don't see how introducing some module restrictions is going to cause people to have so little fun that they wouldn't want to play any more (whereas the OPs suggestion of pvp quality opponents might). On the contrary, I think people would find the game more fun after this change (levelling the griefer/mission runner playing field). The problem as you seem to infer yourself, is perception. People don't know what's a worthy sacrifice or not, because they don't really understand games, they just think something is being taken away rather than something being given to them. It's sad, really.

The reader 'infers'...the author 'implies'! [big grin]

I generally agree with you about this - the tired argument that ships in Elite should have clearly defined roles is merely a barrier to interaction ie. that a multi-purpose ship shouldn't be able to hold its own with a combat vessel, is all well & good in the real world (as the proponents usually give naval examples to 'prove' their point) but this is a game that - in open - relies somewhat on player interaction, hence for that reason you have hit the nail on the head because anything that facilitates this has to be a good thing.

Back in the day, some of my favourite PvP fights were when I was interdicted by players in high powered ships (FDLs/FASs etc) while running missions in my multi-purpose DBS - Now I would high wake without a second thought!

Another way to help the situation would be to include certain modules as standard, built into the ship...you know DC, scanners, even basic fuel scoop & maybe, to allow hard-points to be used for some defensive utilities, thus encouraging non-combat oriented players to enter open with more confidence.
 
I agree with the OP in principle...ONE of the issues with ED is that Combat with NPCs is SO one sided...

Trouble is, it's actually an issue that calls into question the entire nature of the ED universe.

The PvP worldview is that the entire ED universe is some kind of "Wild West", where everybody is likely to engage in a gunfight at any time and everybody should be prepared for that.
Trouble is, I'm not sure that's how FDev intend the galaxy should be perceived, and it's definitely not the way a lot (probably the vast majority) of players interpret it.

Players, even Elite ones, want to be able to haul cargo, mine, explore and ferry passengers around without doing those things in a tank all the time.

As has been said, it might be nice if ED offered especially challenging aspects which approach PvP levels of combat skill but that shouldn't become the baseline for simply existing within the ED universe.
 
As has been said, it might be nice if ED offered especially challenging aspects which approach PvP levels of combat skill but that shouldn't become the baseline for simply existing within the ED universe.

But combat with NPCs is essentially consensual...NPCs (99% of the time) only attack you for a logical reason...so can be avoided by "controlling the environment" Pirates might ask you to drop Cargo...but other than that you'll only be attacked if you're Wanted/Mission Running/in a CZ/PP pledged etc etc...
Its only PCs that attack you randomly for the simple reason that your existing offends their delicate sensibilities...
So tough NPCs that can easily be avoided or negotiated with (dropping cargo) seems like a PERFECT solution...
 
Players, even Elite ones, want to be able to haul cargo, mine, explore and ferry passengers around without doing those things in a tank all the time.
The nature of the Elite games - if you look at the previous ones in the series - is that all of those activities should have an element of combat to them (now largely reduced to maybe arrival/departure for exploration in Elite Dangerous). So the "resistance/challenge" to the activity is partly provided by having to include weapons and defences not directly contributing to the activity on your ship. Very standard compromise-in-build stuff that's in thousands of games.

The problem is that if your preferred activity is "combat", then your compromise-in-build components and your build components are basically identical, so you can build a much better ship for "doing combat" than for "doing passenger runs".

From a game balance perspective there are I think three ways out of this:
1) Make Combat something which in itself is not a productive in-game activity: bounties are token payments only, combat missions largely don't exist, RES and CZs disappear. (A bit like FE2/FFE)
2) Heavily redesign the outfitting so that all ships are multirole (back to Elite I) - adding weapons doesn't really take away from non-combat capability, and non-combat capability can't be used much to hold more guns/shields/armour. (A bit like the original Elite)
3) Make combat largely entirely optional so that no-one else really has to compromise their builds either: restrict it to certain zones, make combat during other activities easy to evade/escape, etc. (Elite Dangerous ... except for PvP)
...and none of them are particularly satisfactory. I think '2' is probably the best of the options in practice, but it's way too late to switch to that now.
 
But combat with NPCs is essentially consensual...NPCs (99% of the time) only attack you for a logical reason...so can be avoided by "controlling the environment" Pirates might ask you to drop Cargo...but other than that you'll only be attacked if you're Wanted/Mission Running/in a CZ/PP pledged etc etc...
Its only PCs that attack you randomly for the simple reason that your existing offends their delicate sensibilities...
So tough NPCs that can easily be avoided or negotiated with (dropping cargo) seems like a PERFECT solution...

Can't say I see it that way myself.

Assuming that NPCs still level in roughly the same way that they do now, you're going to end up in a situation where an Elite player who's intent on pottering around mining/trading or going exploring is going to end up having to build every ship as a tank just in case they stumble across a top-tier NPC opponent.

If I get attacked while flying almost any non-combat ship, I just run away.
Creating more powerful NPCs would simply mean that there'd be a greater chance of me getting my ships destroyed in the course of mundane activities.

It would, basically, turn the ED galaxy into a mad-max style society filled with well-armed psychopaths.
 
Easily justified, mass restrictions, any way you like. That small immersion breaker is a very small price to pay to bring everyone back to open, don't you think?

Sure. I'd be happy to see slots on my python allocated to non combat. But I'd bet my butter that there's a whole bunch of people who would blow up at the idea. Possibly rightly so. If they'd, say, invested a lot of time and effort into engineering a build that worked only to be told they were losing two slots for balance.

I'm also not really convinced that that really addresses the core that would see people "flock back to open." I think we got part way there with the c+p stuff, but that doesn't really protect anyone, it just imposes punishment. Punishment is a fairly blah concept which perhaps allows victims of grief to think "oh well at least they got theirs" without really fixing the problem of being griefed (there's no repairation). Even the tactical response is too slow to be of use.
 
It has been mentioned already in this thread, that the 'rift' does not stem from the difficulty between NPC and PC ships, it all about the interest in PvP. The rift comes into play when a certain group of players are not satisfied with other players deciding on a different path. If the PvErs could just stop complaining when they get shot up in open, and those in open could just stop complaining that other players opt out of PvP, everything would be fine.

Instead we have bunches of players worrying about how other players use the game. No one likes cheating, and that's not what I'm writing about. I'm writing about a fundamental choice every player faces when they log on. It's a disparity of interests. My interest is to buzz about in the Milky Way galaxy, handing NPC Pirates their backsides. Others enjoy taking their guns out to parlay with other players.

There is no doubt there is plenty of room in E|D for both types, until one side or another decides the other side must conform to their views. The 'rift' would fade away if we players could just get on with it, and not expect that all of these varying players must have a single focus. All anyone can expect is to enjoy the game their way, alongside those that have similar interests. It is us players that created the 'rift', not the game, nor the developers. It's what we have made of it.
 
The nature of the Elite games - if you look at the previous ones in the series - is that all of those activities should have an element of combat to them (now largely reduced to maybe arrival/departure for exploration in Elite Dangerous). So the "resistance/challenge" to the activity is partly provided by having to include weapons and defences not directly contributing to the activity on your ship. Very standard compromise-in-build stuff that's in thousands of games.

The problem is that if your preferred activity is "combat", then your compromise-in-build components and your build components are basically identical, so you can build a much better ship for "doing combat" than for "doing passenger runs".

I think I agree with what you're saying.

Basically, if you're building a combat ship, it doesn't have to be good at anything else but, in the universe postulated by the OP, everybody would have to go about their other pursuits in ships which are also capable of combat at roughly the same elevated level as a dedicated combat ship.

If FDev did seek to expand the role of combat within what is supposed to be a multi-faceted universe, the best way to do it would probably be to create dedicated medium-term scenarios where combat ships are required.

For example, you rock up in a system and something makes you aware that it could be a very profitable/useful system except that it's plagued by powerful pirates or governed by a violent militia, so you decide to bring in a couple of combat ships (and possibly get a couple of mates involved too) and clean up the system so you can reap the rewards of your effort afterwards.

Stuff like that could be fun for those so-inclined, and it wouldn't have an effect on people who aren't interested in pew-pew.
 
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ED seems to be designed around "farming" NPCs. I spent the weekend in CZs for the current CG, and the entire reward system is based on how many ships one can destroy in a short amount of time. Once this CG is over, I won't be going to a CZ anytime soon, because this repetitive gameplay is now a "grind" to me, and I actually find CZs very challenging (but not very fun).

As for ED's PvP, my experience in this realm has been mostly negative. If PvPers have a bad reputation around here, there's likely a reason for that...

So I'm thankful that ED provides way more things to do than just combat, and hopefully some of these things (like mining and exploration) will become even better this year :D
 
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So i gather that the TLDR of the OP is "Why cant we all just get along?" and the reason is that some have empathy for the dissapointment another player might feel at the loss of their time and effort and some dont. I dont think you will get those two camps to agree on much of anything. Or were you talking about only consensual PVP?

In the future could you please include a readers digest version of your ideas at the bottom of your posts? A readers digest version?
 
Can't say I see it that way myself.

Assuming that NPCs still level in roughly the same way that they do now, you're going to end up in a situation where an Elite player who's intent on pottering around mining/trading or going exploring is going to end up having to build every ship as a tank just in case they stumble across a top-tier NPC opponent.


Think about your in-game Elite experiences (I'm sure mine are fairly representative)
Have you ever been attacked by NPCs when carrying ONLY exploration data? Have you ever been attacked when Mining - without being asked to drop "some of that Tasty Cargo' first? Have you ever been interdicted by Pirates who attacked before telling you to drop some Cargo? Etc etc...
You can control (or predict) the environment with NPCs...so choose what to do/what missions to fly/what ship or Outfit choices to Pick depending on your activities with a certain degree of accuracy...
Its almost vanishingly rare for NPCs to randomly attack you because they don't like the concept of other people playing Elite...so ultimately Your own CHOICES influence what degree of opposition you encounter and how they react to you...and that's generally in ways that are internally coherent...
There's no NPC algorithm that goes...Ship only has 3D Shields = Must attack immediately is there?
 
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