PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[withnail]

Preferable for who?
The rabid PvP crowd who, again and again, prove the bankruptcy of their chosen style of play because it cannot support itself? That it needs others to be their targets and content to give their Engineered super combat machines meaning and purpose? Because clearly at this point PvP’ers can’t play among themselves. Need some explorers and traders that way their paint won’t be scratched? It’s a game. Play your own way. Leave others to theirs and, shockingly, that may not involve you trying to blow them up when they are playing. Weird I know.

Sorry, I don't really understand the rabid part and disagree with rest.

The PvE community are pretty rabid mind, you only need to see the cyclical responses here and the dev quote spamming to get an idea.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Do we need a review?

If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way.

 

[withnail]

That's not what I said.

My point is that bringing general NPC difficulty up to the same level as (presumably skilled) PvP is a contentious proposal.

It's a good idea though. I enjoyed the really difficult AI agree the engineers release. Was more challenging.

Areas of this in systems would be good to increase the general players abilities, which seem to be lacking given the moaning.

 

[cmdr kruzer70]

• Is it good and exciting fun ?
• Can everyone find a challenge without resorting to PvP ?
• What are the impacts of engineering and what can be done about them ?

Here are my answers not the answers MY answers.

1. Yes, I have fun playing the game

2. Yes, the Thargoids provide that. Also, in the OPs own video he manages to complete a wing assassination mission solo just before he dies. How much more of a challenge could you want? He didn't survive the slightest misstep and he would of failed. Now if he'd survived with no hull damage or 50% hull then yeah maybe he could say it wasn't much of a challenge but he succeed by the skin of his teeth .

3. Engineering IMO has been a disaster start to finish. The complete removal of Engineers and a reset of all engineered modules would go much further in achieving the OP's goals than a buff to the NPCs.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Do you find anything about the actual proposal (not the caricatures) unreasonable?

Specifically this bit:

It all comes down to "PvE players vs. PvP players" in discussions, with ridiculous things like someone accusing someone else of being one or the other. It shouldn't be like that. It should just be people discussing COMBAT, not one type or the other, or which one is "better" than the other.

It doesn't need to be like this. If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way. Yes it would be a mess at first. Yes payouts would need to be adjusted, and cr/hr would be thrown into flux again. But guess what? That's because things are currently not in a good place. This craziness would be a pain, but it would get everyone on the same page. Real productive discussions could take place, with everyone now facing the same challenges and dealing with the same mechanics.

Paraphrasing: "make NPC combat harder and then everyone* will need to become more proficient in combat".

*: everyone that still plays the game, that is.

Why?

Simply because the game is not only about combat nor do players travel around in combat builds - two of the three paths to Elite don't require the player to fire a shot, after all.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Specifically this bit:



Paraphrasing: "make NPC combat harder and then everyone* will need to become more proficient in combat".

*: everyone that still plays the game, that is.



Simply because the game is not only about combat nor do players travel around in combat builds - two of the three paths to Elite don't require the player to fire a shot, after all.

That's not what it says at all.
Please see the bold part I added above.
You are misrepresenting the OP.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's a good idea though. I enjoyed the really difficult AI agree the engineers release. Was more challenging.

Areas of this in systems would be good to increase the general players abilities, which seem to be lacking given the moaning.

It's one idea - and not everyone enjoyed the 2.1 NPCs - which Frontier scaled back - presumably after comparing player activity before the release of 2.1 and immediately after....

Whether it is good for the player-base at large is another matter.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I sure don't understand what some people not doing combat has to to do with balancing combat.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That's not what it says at all.
Please see the bold part I added above.
You are misrepresenting the OP.

The OP states that all NPCs (above Harmless) would be placed on a scale with Elite NPCs being as close as possible to "fully optimised PvP ships". That implies an increase in challenge posed by particular NPC ranks.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I sure don't understand what some people not doing combat has to to do with balancing combat.

Some combat is going to be encountered, regardless of the preference of the player - even if it is just by interdiction.

 

[Rubbernuke]

So:

Why dont NPCS...

....use Power weapons? Why are they not 'out in the wild'?

....NPC pirates use ion mines, shield busting torpedoes?

....use TLB, dazzle & other special effects?

I'm not calling for every NPC to be tooled up, but at least have this content available to Solo players as you miss nearly 50% of whats available. People say that PvE is boring grind, then add the spice!

PvE is not challenging in the slightest outside high end kill missions. NPC pirates are toothless, interdictions impossible not to win, with all those extras above it would add a whole new dimension.

In Open you may have to face all of the above- a better way of seeing that is in Solo (90% of the day to day time) you miss facing it, and that you face regular weapons with regular effects.

Lets take NPC piracy: when was the last time to gave cargo as you were going to die? I bet never. People simply win the interdiction, or drop down and boost away while the pirate shoots weak lasers at you. Now, what if NPC pirates had drive disabling ion mines? Reverb torpedoes? Cytos? What if they could actually win an interdiction? To escape now would actually require skill rather than resorting to 5 button presses and back to SC. Plus, you can give cargo to distract the pirate for once.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

The OP states that all NPCs (above Harmless) would be placed on a scale with Elite NPCs being as close as possible to "fully optimised PvP ships". That implies an increase in challenge posed by particular NPC ranks.

Yes, that is quite different compared to what you wrote above:

bringing general NPC difficulty up to the same level as (presumably skilled) PvP

That out of the way, what is unreasonable about scaling difficulty in that manner?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Yes, that is quite different compared to what you wrote above:

That out of the way, what is unreasonable about scaling difficulty in that manner?

Not "out of the way" at all. We would encounter the same ranks of NPCs - but they would all pose more of a challenge (bar Harmless ones that would stay the same), i.e. increased general NPC difficulty.

If a corresponding reduction in encounter frequency of higher ranks took place it would be less of an issue, in my opinion.

 

[sollisb]

Come on. A thread specificly about combat should not talk about combat because some players don't engage in it ?

For real ?

Given the game is for everyone, and combat effects everyone, whether they chase it or not, I would think, everyone has a say.

Like it or not, one section of players do not get sole rights to inflict a play-style on the entire player-base.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Some combat is going to be encountered, regardless of the preference of the player - even if it is just by interdiction.

As it is right now, so what?
You can escape a fully outfitted PVP Cmdr in a stock ship.
So, what's the problem?

 

[Stigbob]

I sure don't understand what some people not doing combat has to to do with balancing combat.

I don't know if you were around for the last NPC upgrade, but it caused wailing and gnashing of teeth. Some players had to get their combat ranks reset by support because they couldn't cope even after the nerf. I liked them, especially the NPC's being much more likely to run away it was a nice touch of added realism.

In an MMO you can't just crank up the overall difficulty setting, it has to be set for the average player. The average player (according to FDEV) has about 60 hours in game, if you have 3000 you are going to be better than them.

Set your own difficulty through ship choice and outfitting.

 

[withnail]

It's one idea - and not everyone enjoyed the 2.1 NPCs - which Frontier scaled back - presumably after comparing player activity before the release of 2.1 and immediately after....

Whether it is good for the player-base at large is another matter.

It certainly would be.

You won't get better if you keep on shooting the same old potatoes.

Better skills in escape and evasion, situational awareness, how to use heat sinks etc would go a long way to prevent so called "griefing".

I haven't been killed by an NPC since that time. I've been killed by loads of players though, because they are just better then AI.

By increasing difficulty in designated areas you have a better chance of training the players to a better standard.

I've never been "griefed". I think the whole problem is caused by players being unable to evade.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Paraphrasing: "make NPC combat harder and then everyone* will need to become more proficient in combat".

Or escaping.

 

[withnail]

Given the game is for everyone, and combat effects everyone, whether they chase it or not, I would think, everyone has a say.

Like it or not, one section of players do not get sole rights to inflict a play-style on the entire player-base.

No. But those players who dislike combat could do everyone a favour and get better at avoiding attack in the first place.

 

[Robert Maynard]

As it is right now, so what?
You can escape a fully outfitted PVP Cmdr in a stock ship.
So, what's the problem?

Some can, no doubt. Some can't. It rather depends on the ships / loadouts in question, i.e. specifics, not generalities. Therefore, increasing the capability / weaponry of NPCs in general would likely reduce the escape success percentage of ships, in general.