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A request for FDev; please provide an update regarding Logging/Combat Logging
- Thread starter Hairy Polo
- Start date
what's your opinion on the clogging issue
Same as Frontier's. But they're more lenient than I am; if you have multiple 'disconnects', you should be pushed into solo. I don't think Frontier should make allowances for people with poor connections, whilst solo is an option for them.
Personally I stay in solo because the server connection is better and I don't need to worry about griefers. I like solo. The multiplayer connection with this game horrible as it is. Last year I lost an elite commander with almost 3 billion Cr because apparently attempting multiplayer from Colonia corrupted my game file rendering the game unplayable. Can't even get it past one load screen on my main account. So I had to buy a second Xbox gold account just to play the game. Support said it was a lost cause. Oops sorry.
This idea is so simple, it's brilliant.
There is no need to log if you build a moderately defended ship, and take a few minutes to learn how to escape works.
Engineers aren't even necessary to do so, but they definitely help.
If you are worried about other players, the game offers both a solo and private mode. You don't have to cheat. We've been over this a million times.
If you sit down and play a board game with someone, do you flip the board over and scramble the pieces around because you think you're losing? No? That's practically what logging is.
Before anyone hits me with a 'well they're just ruining the game for others', keep in mind that engaging other players is part of the game. Every ship you buy comes equipped with a laser weapon from the dealership. Hint hint, it's a dangerous galaxy. Getting upset because someone shot at you in Elite is like getting upset because someone hit you with a draw four card in Uno. Or beat you at tic tac toe.
Engineers aren't even necessary to do so, but they definitely help.
If you are worried about other players, the game offers both a solo and private mode. You don't have to cheat. We've been over this a million times.
If you sit down and play a board game with someone, do you flip the board over and scramble the pieces around because you think you're losing? No? That's practically what logging is.
Before anyone hits me with a 'well they're just ruining the game for others', keep in mind that engaging other players is part of the game. Every ship you buy comes equipped with a laser weapon from the dealership. Hint hint, it's a dangerous galaxy. Getting upset because someone shot at you in Elite is like getting upset because someone hit you with a draw four card in Uno. Or beat you at tic tac toe.
My xbox is doing a great job of clogging by itself at the moment... Even in solo grrrrrr.
I think if the connections were more stable they might do something about the proper cloggers.
I think if the connections were more stable they might do something about the proper cloggers.
Again, gross
Those guys are the worst lol.
Those guys are the worst lol.
Well when the clog after a 5 min battle when they are just fine until they start to see that rebuy screen, you know it aint a bad connection.
No the way its suppose to work just like in real life, Say your just the average joe walking down the street and bam you get shot by the police because you looked just like a robber from the local bank. No First they make sure after they scan your identity and realize your not wanted aka not getting shot at if your not wanted. Straight up when gankers and griefers do it for the lulz they dont care because the c&p system is still a joke. They should make it to where if you kill a non wanted player excludes pp then for each kill aka when your notoriety goes up by 1 you pay a full rebuy and maxes out to 10 which would mean what ever your rebuy is you pay full price from the first kill and just doubles to 10. Would fix a lot of these gankers and griefers problems. Whats funny is most of the time i see these gankers picking on non eng ships but run when they meet some one better than them.
Repd! Completely agree with this post, If you want people to see how good you are in combat then do it CQC
Whilst i agree with the majority of points raised, apart from the above, this is a very one sided thread. When people choose to play in OPEN, they should be fully aware of the fact that they may be attacked... but it begs the question that do those who love to play PVP understand that OPEN does not also solely mean PVP mode? To many OPEN is an opportunity to meet other Cmdrs. OPEN does not solely belong to the PVP'ers.
I myself got ganked, griefed whatever you want to call it when i first started out playing in open..... 3 time i got attacked and destroyed without warning or provocation, no demand for cargo and no bounty on my head.. After the third time i went into solo and PG, didn't go back to OPEN until i started doing CG's in a python..... that's when i met most of my group, the entire reason i played OPEN originally was to meet new people. Not because i wanted to kill some random to feel better about myself or be a pirate.... by the way you can be a pirate in SOLO and PG too, but it's not as much fun alone is it? Just the same for people who dont want to be pirates.... some people just dont find it much fun in SOLO or PG.
What i am trying say is that OPEN is not exclusively for PVP, CQC is for PVP. OPEN does not belong to PVP'ers.
I play in open... the last PVP'er that tried to do what i had done to me when i first started is still floating around somewhere near a CG.
I lost 3 ships and took it, didn't clog, never have..... I went away and got better... now i play open.... not for PVP but to meet people.
I agree clogging is a cop out... but not everyone wants to play your way and expecting them to and then berate them when it has not gone your way is doing exactly what they have done.... they clogged when it didn't go their way.
In a way, you are never going to please everyone and this argument has rumbled on since the game released and will probably continue to do so.
OPEN does not belong to PVP. Like i say, clogging is a cop out but this is not a one sided argument... a least not as one sided as interdicting a noob.
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Just as human nature dictates they'll be vindictive little trolls simply making a nuisance of themselves, thus there'll always be people who simply tap out of a fight. If people defending the 'anything goes' mentality of Open ostensibly accept the right/presence of gankers, then what's the difference with combat logging? One group are looking to spoil other peoples fun/waste their time, another group are using the framework of the videogame itself to spoil someone else's fun (though logging on a ganker is surely the most honourable thing to do, so I doubt people would take issues with that).
Defend the presence/likleihood of one - and to be consistent you must also accept the other.
...emphasis on "practically", but much closer to 'not at all similar'.
Ever play a board game where the board flips itself over randomly? Ever played a board game where a complete strange appears and knocks over your pieces or affects the game to make you lose progress?
Videogames are not board games, and such a direct comparison to try to make a point about logging is a stretch, to put it generously.
Oh, I dunno, to get a better sense of actual humanity and life in what's ostensibly a cold, dead, incredibly inhuman game environment? To engage in emergent gameplay? To add some unpredictability to an incredibly predictable collection of scripting systems?
Wanting to engage with a community in this game, of all games, isn't essentially also a statement of 'Hey, I like complete anarchic free-for-alls!'. For some it might be. For others it is not.
Potentially ruining someone else's game session and wasting their time is 'game content'? Then, as above; so is someone logging on you 'game content'...
Both are undesirable events/actions to someone.
I can't personally speak much for an Open experience on Xbox as I've always tended to ignore MP components of games - it isn't something that relates to why I love this medium. I would like to experience more of the communal context of the game, particularly when squadrons and carriers are introduced. But if I'm randomly ambushed, not pirated, and I'm not in a combat dedicated ship, I absolutely claim and reserve the right to log out; all games soak up valuable time, and Elite more than almost any game is a time-sink (in terrible/poorly designed ways, but also some good ways).
No one should dance to some trolling gankers tune which may directly impact their own use of time gaming. Say someone has thirty minutes to play on a session, and is trying to finish a job as this'll be the only opportunity they have to get it done. Someone ambushes them, not for piracy, just for the dumb hell of it.
Tell me why that person should shrug and say 'Okay, well this is going to screw up my play session and impact my game negatively. But hey! Gankers gonna gank! Their bullying fun overrides mine and my time'?
(ganking can, after all, be termed very precisely as cheating just as logging can; 'act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage', which is exactly what someone in a goldrushed Anaconda or Corvette picking on a low-level non-combat focused player is doing)
Btw, I see both things as undesirable and ideally in need of addressing. But so often the anti-logging PvPer's seem rather disingenuous and blinkered in their arguments. The 'What did you expect?' line really doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
That's also another issue with certain PvP'ers (or it's certainly something that can be perceived, even if it may not be intended); a sense of entitlement, that the entire mode should be exactly however they wish it to be - that combat/violence is the only metric of value or purpose in an MP environment.
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Well said.... far more eloquently than myself! REPD
A lot of well reasoned debate in here...as much as the edict of never the twain shall meet still stands in E-D and always will. FDev created this rod for their own back through design naivete and nothing else. "PvP combat should be rare and meaningful.." from DB himself is a comment which demonstrates this perfectly.
After all the politicking and reasoned hullaballooing on this forum over the years...I still really don't get why folks get physically upset and all frothing at the mouth by either ganking or rage quitting, it's not like it's a new behaviour or particular to E-D...
My take... folks are always going to be complete knobs in a multiplayer game environment given the scope to behave like decent humans or not...NPC's, not so much
After all the politicking and reasoned hullaballooing on this forum over the years...I still really don't get why folks get physically upset and all frothing at the mouth by either ganking or rage quitting, it's not like it's a new behaviour or particular to E-D...
My take... folks are always going to be complete knobs in a multiplayer game environment given the scope to behave like decent humans or not...NPC's, not so much
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You made your point well, and it was another perspective worth mentioning.
Some might say--- *pause for catchy chorus-triggering to pass* ---he was broadly on track, given that most seem to feel meaningless PvP combat (i.e. trollsome ganking) is relatively rare.
But, as ever, the complications arise given how a group of people interact with a virtual space; ganking in most parts of the Sol bubble might be extraordinarily rare, ergo not really worth being something to consider (for a non-combat player). But how common is it in the locations people most visit, especially newer, less experience players? Gankers tend to want fish in barrels, not fishes armed to the teeth who'll have the gear and tricks to potentially turn the tables (apologies for the mixed metaphor/s... ).
So Braben's vision is both accurate, and wildly inaccurate, depending on where you are. It'd be interesting to see some numbers on where such ambushes take place, how frequently, at what times, and across the three platforms. Heh, do the same for what might be classified as combat logging, and one assumes the heat maps would look very similar.
It is an issue with human nature, sure, but any space/community - online or physical - can be curated, so to speak, and improved for the general betterment of all.My take... folks are always going to be complete knobs in a multiplayer game environment given the scope to behave like decent humans or not...NPC's, not so much
If FDev's position is 'anarchy, ergo by extension bullying/ganking, FTW'? Then fair enough, non-combat focused pilots have little response to that. ED isn't really 'our' game, after all, it's FDev's.
But if that means more and more players either stick to Solo, privates, or simply stop playing the game, then FDev - and the vitriolic safeties-permanently-off PvP'ers who seem to want the entire game to be designed just for them - have only themselves to blame.
Which is likely to reduce the playerbase more; gankers and those advocating for a free-for-all? Or players who simply want to enjoy a communal experience without having their time randomly wasted by other players? Even the perception of a threat from some troll is enough to dissuade many people from launching in Open, certainly in some regions of the bubble.
Might be off base but feeling like genuine pirates are getting lumped in with the ganker crowd a bit.
When i pirate my only objectives are some player interaction and maybe some cargo if im lucky! Im not looking to spoil anyones game experience just have fun.
I can agree that the gankers are a nuisance for some players and could spoil an evenings fun, but by the same token cloggers are a nuisance and spoil my evenings fun. They have a perfect way to avoid me in game (solo / pg) but I have no way to avoid them. Its not my personal approach for loggers to be KOS but i can fully understand the reasoning for some CMDRs to do so.
Unfortunately the two problems (cloggers and gankers) are linked and the new crime and punishment system has done nothing to fix either.
When i pirate my only objectives are some player interaction and maybe some cargo if im lucky! Im not looking to spoil anyones game experience just have fun.
I can agree that the gankers are a nuisance for some players and could spoil an evenings fun, but by the same token cloggers are a nuisance and spoil my evenings fun. They have a perfect way to avoid me in game (solo / pg) but I have no way to avoid them. Its not my personal approach for loggers to be KOS but i can fully understand the reasoning for some CMDRs to do so.
Unfortunately the two problems (cloggers and gankers) are linked and the new crime and punishment system has done nothing to fix either.
Historically, what FDev were attempting in E-D (ie) mixing PvP and PvE communities in a forced environment has never worked... it still doesn't. Many, many MMO titles have tried and failed before E-D came along with the naive attitude that their game will be different...policed by their own community, blah, blah. Jumpgate in the early 90's perhaps had the closest working model of a mixed population in a comparatively small galaxy...but E-D certainly isn't Jumpgate.
This is all mixed with a general rise in toxic multiplayer behaviour in practically all games. A change in attitude of the player base becoming more feral, too many developers promoting purely adversarial and competitive individual gameplay tied to leaderboards and kill/death ratios?...Who can tell.
The only game in my current library to have none of this purely selfish nonsense is ARMA 3...but that's a military simulator, very little PvP, vast map areas, no leaderboards for the casual jump and shoot players to get all excited about...plus the 4 million odd regular players in the ARMA community self regulates by instant server banning across the board should anyone decide that trolling other folks game time is more fun than playing.
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